Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[Sebastianne]

I am rewatching the first season of the Lynda Carter's series, and I am more convinced that that is Patty's vision of WW,
not so powerful, away from Isla Paraíso, villains with a campy style and above all NO GODS...

[Perseus]

Yeah and none of this remotely proves he killed off the gods (assuming it was even his idea) because of Superman. This is just being paranoid.

That wasn't about the gods. I have no malice towards Zach and critiquing his use of Clark as a symbol for a messiah figure is fair one.

I'm only making an assumption based on the very movies that are apart of the DCEU and some interviews that I've read. Your right, there isn't any proof, I wasn't a part of the creative process, but there isn't any proof that it wasn't his idea either. And its 100% possible that it was 1 of many different reasons. All I'm asking is why were the Gods killed? Who made that decision and why? And all I'm going off on here is the DCEU as presented, which happens to be largely based around Zach's vision. If it happens to be Patty's decision then fine it doesn't make a difference to me.

[Perseus]

I am rewatching the first season of the Lynda Carter's series, and I am more convinced that that is Patty's vision of WW,
not so powerful, away from Isla Paraíso, villains with a campy style and above all NO GODS...

I guess I just don't like Patty's narrow vision for the character then.

[Agent Z]

That wasn't about the gods. I have no malice towards Zach and critiquing his use of Clark as a symbol for a messiah figure is fair one.

I'm only making an assumption based on the very movies that are apart of the DCEU and some interviews that I've read. Your right, there isn't any proof, I wasn't a part of the creative process, but there isn't any proof that it wasn't his idea either. And its 100% possible that it was 1 of many different reasons. All I'm asking is why were the Gods killed? Who made that decision and why? And all I'm going off on here is the DCEU as presented, which happens to be largely based around Zach's vision. If it happens to be Patty's decision then fine it doesn't make a difference to me.

Asking questions and making up theories are two different things. And frankly, people overestimate just how much control Snyder had over the DCEU in the first place.

[SiegePerilous02]

I know Snyder has his flaws and isn't very popular here but this theory has no basis to back it up and just feels like a desire to attribute malice were there is none. Especially since we don't even know if killing off the gods was his idea.

Whose attributing malice? That's not the only reason behind iffy creative decisions.

I don't think it was Zack's for 100% certain, just that it seems like something that would fit how he views Superman and the arc of the DCEU. But I also think if Jenkins really objected, he'd be fine with her changing it in that scenario even if it was his idea.

[Gaius]

IDK if this is even controversial but I absolutely hate what they did to Barbara and the Cheetah in WW84. Way to make a generic villain out of an interesting character because your busy juggling both her and Max for no reason. They should have just incorporated that stupid cursed dagger Nu52 origin for Cheetah on top of Barbara going off on an archeological exploration to "find a god" from Rucka's rebirth run. Just the dagger, not the secret cult Barbara or the multiple personas or Diana laughing at Barbara saying if it would be cool if she had powers thing.

Tangential but still annoys me they took the ending of Gods and Mortals (Ares sees the error of his ways thanks to the lasso) and gave to Max in WW84. Granted at least it wasn't the neck snap (Supes took one for the team there in MoS with Zod).

Of course overshadowing Barbara in her film debut is the bigger sin but just another reason to not like Max Lord as a WW villain.

[Perseus]

Tangential but still annoys me they took the ending of Gods and Mortals (Ares sees the error of his ways thanks to the lasso) and gave to Max in WW84. Granted at least it wasn't the neck snap (Supes took one for the team there in MoS with Zod).

Of course overshadowing Barbara in her film debut is the bigger sin but just another reason to not like Max Lord as a WW villain.

Yeah I would have loved to see Ares as a reoccurring character/villain via Loki in MARVEL, seeing him develop from his Perez form to Jimenez to Rucka.

I don't mind the neck snap in the comics, just what came after it. Really dropped the ball with both Max in the comics and movies.

[I'm a Fish]

IDK if this is even controversial but I absolutely hate what they did to Barbara and the Cheetah in WW84. Way to make a generic villain out of an interesting character because your busy juggling both her and Max for no reason. They should have just incorporated that stupid cursed dagger Nu52 origin for Cheetah on top of Barbara going off on an archeological exploration to "find a god" from Rucka's rebirth run. Just the dagger, not the secret cult Barbara or the multiple personas or Diana laughing at Barbara saying if it would be cool if she had powers thing.

I’m not big on Diana being a loner, but the concept of someone who desires companionship but struggles to maintain lasting connections vs someone who chooses isolation is an interesting concept to me. One I wouldn’t mind being re-adapted.

[John Venus]

I think it is the story that Patty wanted to tell, and it is likely that after the third movie there will be a reboot, it is evident that the Gods have no place in Jenkins's vision, and that's ok for me.

Lets see:

Lynda Carter show: 1975

Wonder Woman Animated Movie: 2009

Wonder Woman Live Action Movie: 2017

Wonder Woman Bloodlines: 2019

Wonder Woman 1984: 2020

We seem to be averaging to about one movie per decade with shorter times between sequels. Here's to the 2031 WW reboot!

The gods being alive would have been a good starting point for a potential WW3 storyline in which Circe somehow enhances her powers in such a deadly way that even the Olympian pantheon is at risk.

Even if the Gods had survived in the first movie, I think that would be Hela redudant to do that for WW's third movie even though I agree that Circe should be the third movie villain.

Killing the Gods was a bad move no matter how you play it in my eyes. Missed opportunities for character and story development. I'm not interested in an origin that doesn't involve Athena or Aphrodite or any of the patrons while only making Zeus responsible for everything and having Ares simply due to his basic origin starting villain role. Athena, Ares, and Aphro are the big 3 important Gods in my eyes.

And please, I doubt Patty cared about having the Gods in her stories, but I feel like the only reason they were killed off was because Zach wanted Superman to be the only "true" God on earth.

I agree. I think the backstory given in WW 2017 filters the Greek Mythos through the lens of the Abrahamic religion with Zeus as God and Ares as Lucifer. I would much rather they let Greek mythos be Greek Mythos.

I don't know if it was Patty, since I can't recall any overt reference to religion in WW84. Snyder definitely loves that kind of visual in his movies but it easily could have been Johns or one of the other screen writers who works on these movies.

[Perseus]

I’m not big on Diana being a loner, but the concept of someone who desires companionship but struggles to maintain lasting connections vs someone who chooses isolation is an interesting concept to me. One I wouldn’t mind being re-adapted.

I can see this being a part of Diana's character development. She wouldn't actively try to be alone, its perhaps a result of trying to maintain a connection but failing as you say. Diana is a busy woman, people that need constant attention are probably not going to be around her for long and in worst cases turn against her. That's the basis for Silver Swan right?

[Alpha]

I agree. I think the backstory given in WW 2017 filters the Greek Mythos through the lens of the Abrahamic religion with Zeus as God and Ares as Lucifer. I would much rather they let Greek mythos be Greek Mythos.

To be fair Wonder Woman has never followed the actual greek mythos and it's moral system. For one thing, Aphrodite and Ares were lovers in actual myth, not enemies. And more importantly, there was no such thing as good and evil. Good and Evil is an Abrahamic construction. In Greek culture it was all about power dynamics and social contracts. The heroes were brave, not virtuous. They defied the gods in order to achieve their desires, and they suceeded for a while, until the day they finally were struck down by the power of a larger authority. Heck, the rite of the sacrifices that the Greeks practiced were all about the social contract with the gods.

[I'm a Fish]

I can see this being a part of Diana's character development. She wouldn't actively try to be alone, its perhaps a result of trying to maintain a connection but failing as you say. Diana is a busy woman, people that need constant attention are probably not going to be around her for long and in worst cases turn against her. That's the basis for Silver Swan right?

The first Silver Swan was shunned because she was a plain looking ballerina who had bad acne, so despite her skill the studio would never give her a main role in productions. So elements of loneliness were there for sure.

Loneliness as isolation is a common theme among villains. No surprise considering how damaging prolonged isolation can be to people.

[Agent Z]

To be fair Wonder Woman has never followed the actual greek mythos and it's moral system. For one thing, Aphrodite and Ares were lovers in actual myth, not enemies. And more importantly, there was no such thing as good and evil. Good and Evil is an Abrahamic construction. In Greek culture it was all about power dynamics and social contracts. The heroes were brave, not virtuous. They defied the gods in order to achieve their desires, and they suceeded for a while, until the day they finally were struck down by the power of a larger authority. Heck, the rite of the sacrifices that the Greeks practiced were all about the social contract with the gods.

Good and evil as concepts predate the Abrahamic religions.

[Alpha]

Good and evil as concepts predate the Abrahamic religions.

Such as? Lots of other ancient religions have dual states in nature, but they aren't good and evil. Taoism is the most notable example, but there are many African religions too.

[Agent Z]

Such as? Lots of other ancient religions have dual states in nature, but they aren't good and evil. Taoism is the most notable example, but there are many African religions too.

Zoroastrianism comes to mind. In ancient Egypt, there were the concepts of Ma'at, the principle of justice, order, and cohesion, and Isfet, the principle of chaos, disorder, and decay. The former being the power and principles which society sought to embody where the latter was such that undermined society. Mesopotamian mythology also has a good vs evil conflict in the form of Marduk vs Tiamat.

There is also research stating that what is good and evil are hardwired into our brains (some are just better at not caring about it than others). The Abrahamic religions simply invented the idea that we are all sinners from birth.