Dick Grayson: Robin/ Nightwing/ Agent 37 Appreciation 2021

[Claude]

And my point was that Bludhaven and his rogues will never matter beyond what they are currently. They aren't suddenly going to elevate the character after 25 years of trying. He needs more stories with already established top end villains that can be repackaged to a wider audience. That is what will elevate the character. Under the Red Hood was just an example, but there is no Nightwing story against an A list villain that tells a nice story that you can point to and say "read this" to someone interested in the character. All we have are these long runs where the quality is all over the place with no stories that really stand out. These stories will never be possible in Bludhaven because there is no top end villain in the setting.

In retrospect, I think "Grayson" fell in between two options for these easily repackagable, adaptable, easy to recommend stories. Successful enough that it got expanded away from being a maxi series, cut short before "Owls vs Spies" could become its own guest star heavy, Dick-led event story.

I wouldn't discount the impact the animated adaption of Under The Red Hood when it comes to its reputation, mind - they aren't there yet, but Taylor's "King Of Bludhaven/secret sister" plot or Sheridan's "Red X is back" story could be adaptable into punchy and impactful animated films with a few changes

You're right that, especially, the absence of a definitive "Nightwing And Deathstroke" story is a shocking oversight though. You'd think that was an obvious thing to go for.


Eta: "Nightwing - Parabola" ever happens, that might hit some of the targets - Gothamy and Bat Familyish as it sounds. A standalone by Snyder not tied into continuity has quite a good shot at cutting through.

[Lal]

Oh, yeah, sure. Damian is appearing more, as he doesn't need to be set up. He's just not part of the new generation being pushed is my point. He's not the third link to Jon and Yara.

And I knew Future State was never going to happen. It's still an indicator of where the line is going. You'll see that Justice League eventually, just with Jackson instead of Andy, most likely.

But when do you think we'll see this JL? the JL in future state saw was 20 years into the future, when all the characters were very experienced. Right now, none of them are. ​
Jon could possibly be in the league now. Yara? maybe, if they'll be creative. it would be weird, but she could be there. But why would Jace be there when Bruce is still Batman?
Take into account that Tynion said they had to tear the batfamily apart to set 5G, and that there was supposed to be a time jump. Right now the batfamily are working together, and If there won't be a time jump, why would Jace be there? He could probably be in the outsiders - it could work with his connection to Katana, and it sounds like a much more reasonable starting point for him.
Also, in 5G Damian was supposed to be a villain. He's no longer going to be a villain, and as he's probably the most prominent young character in the DCU right now (together with Jon). It's entirely possible we'll see him as part of the future ensemble of a future Justice League.

[Lal]

In retrospect, I think "Grayson" fell in between two options for these easily repackagable, adaptable, easy to recommend stories. Successful enough that it got expanded away from being a maxi series, cut short before "Owls vs Spies" could become its own guest star heavy, Dick-led event story.

I wouldn't discount the impact the animated adaption of Under The Red Hood when it comes to its reputation, mind - they aren't there yet, but Taylor's "King Of Bludhaven/secret sister" plot or Sheridan's "Red X is back" story could be adaptable into punchy and impactful animated films with a few changes

You're right that, especially, the absence of a definitive "Nightwing And Deathstroke" story is a shocking oversight though. You'd think that was an obvious thing to go for.


Eta: "Nightwing - Parabola" ever happens, that might hit some of the targets - Gothamy and Bat Familyish as it sounds. A standalone by Snyder not tied into continuity has quite a good shot at cutting through.

Since Red X is canon, is Dick's time as Deathstroke's apprentice also canon?
A Deasthstoke vs Nightwing story set in the present with flashbacks to their past could actually be interesting.

[Superboy-Prime]

But when do you think we'll see this JL? the JL in future state saw was 20 years into the future, when all the characters were very experienced. Right now, none of them are. ​
Jon could possibly be in the league now. Yara? maybe, if they'll be creative. it would be weird, but she could be there. But why would Jace be there when Bruce is still Batman?
Take into account that Tynion said they had to tear the batfamily apart to set 5G, and that there was supposed to be a time jump. Right now the batfamily are working together, and If there won't be a time jump, why would Jace be there? He could probably be in the outsiders - it could work with his connection to Katana, and it sounds like a much more reasonable starting point for him.
Also, in 5G Damian was supposed to be a villain. He's no longer going to be a villain, and as he's probably the most prominent young character in the DCU right now (together with Jon). It's entirely possible we'll see him as part of the future ensemble of a future Justice League.

Nah, Damian has 0 chance of being in the Justice League. It's going to be the new Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman (Girl?) Anyways, you're thinking too deep about it, just expect to see that lineup in present day minus Andy. And Bruce left Gotham and is probably quitting the League, so that'd be why. There are a lot of things that have to happen for the universe to get to the point where all of those characters can join the League. For instance, Jess Chambers hasn't made their way into the main universe yet. Doesn't at all mean they'll be replaced.

[Godlike13]

And my point was that Bludhaven and his rogues will never matter beyond what they are currently. They aren't suddenly going to elevate the character after 25 years of trying. He needs more stories with already established top end villains that can be repackaged to a wider audience. That is what will elevate the character. Under the Red Hood was just an example, but there is no Nightwing story against an A list villain that tells a nice story that you can point to and say "read this" to someone interested in the character. All we have are these long runs where the quality is all over the place with no stories that really stand out. These stories will never be possible in Bludhaven because there is no top end villain in the setting.

Nightwing’s at the point where he needs different platforms to elevate the character. Comics are there to provide a library of content to stem from. Bludhaven and his own rogues helps them to make more Nightwing content rather then just more strictly Batman content. Sure an iconic solo story would be great, but still wouldn’t be enough to push him past the limits of the medium.

[AmiMizuno]

In many ways if they want Dick to be more of an impact he needs to have his own event with the Titans. Or at least get him to have more crossover arcs with other heroes. I would love a Comic with Dick and Wally. I don't want to use World's Finest but something unique to them

[Claude]

In many ways if they want Dick to be more of an impact he needs to have his own event with the Titans. Or at least get him to have more crossover arcs with other heroes. I would love a Comic with Dick and Wally. I don't want to use World's Finest but something unique to them

The connection with Jon will do some of that, but... I'd expected something to be announced by now. There might be cameos planned already, but we're solicited for issues up to six months after there was a big "Clark asks Dick to look after Jon", and no big Guest Spot or crossover.

[Badou]

Nightwing’s at the point where he needs different platforms to elevate the character. Comics are there to provide a library of content to stem from. Bludhaven and his own rogues helps them to make more Nightwing content rather then just more strictly Batman content. Sure an iconic solo story would be great, but still wouldn’t be enough to push him past the limits of the medium.

I don't think Bludhaven does that though. It is what you want it to do, but what it actually does is remove him from the bigger story content that fans actually want while being stuck in this cycle of not really producing anything that can stand alone in the end. I think you can tell just as good if not better stories just setting him in Gotham with everyone else. Since it is a setting that has the rogues and supporting characters that readers want to see in their natural setting. Top end ones. Bludhaven doesn't have any of that. You have to drag a Barbara or a Tim to Bludhaven from Gotham or drag in a top tier villain in from somewhere else because Bludhaven doesn't contain any of it on its own. It is why you don't see Bludhaven adapted in any other media. All they have done for it is make it a section of Gotham in the Young Justice show, but it served no real purpose, and is a net negative overall. I think spending so much time and effort in trying to make Bludhaven into something just isn't worth it.

[Aahz]

And my point was that Bludhaven and his rogues will never matter beyond what they are currently. They aren't suddenly going to elevate the character after 25 years of trying. He needs more stories with already established top end villains that can be repackaged to a wider audience. That is what will elevate the character. Under the Red Hood was just an example, but there is no Nightwing story against an A list villain that tells a nice story that you can point to and say "read this" to someone interested in the character. All we have are these long runs where the quality is all over the place with no stories that really stand out. These stories will never be possible in Bludhaven because there is no top end villain in the setting.

I don't think that you really need A-List villains for a stand out story, Batman has several ones with villains that were completely new at the time, like Year One, Court of the Owls or The Cult.

problem is more that they usually don't do big stand alone stories in the books the Batfamily members other than Batman.

[Avi]

Robin/Batman looks promising, but the problem with other mention stories is that they are not really Dick's stories, he just happens to be there.

From what I have seen it looks very much like a Dick Grayson title. Apparently, Lemire and Nguyen wanted to do a Robin: Earth One book way back in 2017 so maybe this is the next best thing they were allowed to do. Robin at the front of the title also seems to indicate Bruce is for once playing second fiddle.

Dick as Red X deserves a flashback. Ah, to see him beating up Beast Brat!

Lol, a flashback should be a must. Maybe the next Robins-type comic is Red Xs.

Since Red X is canon, is Dick's time as Deathstroke's apprentice also canon?
A Deasthstoke vs Nightwing story set in the present with flashbacks to their past could actually be interesting.

Even without the Red X apprenticeship, a certain kind of training should be canon because of Rebirth. At least I mean to remember that Slade training Dick was mentioned as part of the Lazarus Contract backstory.

That a Nightwing vs Deathstroke story hasn't happened yet truly is a crime. But how long has it been that Dick and Slade have had a meaningful interaction in the comics? DC really doesn't care about them as enemies. They want Bruce, Jason, and Damian to face off against Slade.

[Badou]

In retrospect, I think "Grayson" fell in between two options for these easily repackagable, adaptable, easy to recommend stories. Successful enough that it got expanded away from being a maxi series, cut short before "Owls vs Spies" could become its own guest star heavy, Dick-led event story.

I wouldn't discount the impact the animated adaption of Under The Red Hood when it comes to its reputation, mind - they aren't there yet, but Taylor's "King Of Bludhaven/secret sister" plot or Sheridan's "Red X is back" story could be adaptable into punchy and impactful animated films with a few changes

You're right that, especially, the absence of a definitive "Nightwing And Deathstroke" story is a shocking oversight though. You'd think that was an obvious thing to go for.

Eta: "Nightwing - Parabola" ever happens, that might hit some of the targets - Gothamy and Bat Familyish as it sounds. A standalone by Snyder not tied into continuity has quite a good shot at cutting through.

I just don't see how Taylor's run can be adapted. It is another long, drawn out story arc that doesn't really contain any memorable villains. It can't really stand alone at all. Like they would just adapt Dixon's run with Blockbuster with Dick as a cop probably if they ever look to adapt anything from Bludhaven as Taylor's run is very much copying it in a lot of ways. But even with that Nightwing vs Blockbuster doesn't really have mass appeal. You'd need someone of Deathstroke's level to push for an adaptation, but Nightwing doesn't have any great standalone stories of that level. Like you said the absence of a great Deathstroke story does stick out given their history.

Maybe some new Red X story would work, but not how Sheridan is telling it in TTA. Just because Red X has some mass appeal, but you'd have to create an entirely new story around Red X and you also have the problem with Red X being so similar to Red Hood as well. A great comic adaption of Dick creating Red X and then having to use it to team up with a Deathstroke like in the show in some great standalone self contained story might work though.

Yeah, I think Snyder's story will be our best bet at replicating something that can stand alone like what Black Mirror was for him when he was Batman. Even a Snyder said I think it will take place in Gotham, which gives it a bigger chance of being looked at as a more "important" story.

[Aahz]

I don't think Bludhaven does that though. It is what you want it to do, but what it actually does is remove him from the bigger story content that fans actually want while being stuck in this cycle of not really producing anything that can stand alone in the end. I think you can tell just as good if not better stories just setting him in Gotham with everyone else. Since it is a setting that has the rogues and supporting characters that readers want to see in their natural setting. Top end ones. Bludhaven doesn't have any of that. You have to drag a Barbara or a Tim to Bludhaven from Gotham or drag in a top tier villain in from somewhere else because Bludhaven doesn't contain any of it on its own. It is why you don't see Bludhaven adapted in any other media. All they have done for it is make it a section of Gotham in the Young Justice show, but it served no real purpose, and is a net negative overall. I think spending so much time and effort in trying to make Bludhaven into something just isn't worth it.

I don't think that him being in Gotham would really change anything, there are tons of books of Batfamily members that were set in Gotham (several incarnations of Robin, Batgirl, Catwoman, Batwoman, Birds or Prey ...) and they usually never go up against A-List Batman villains or support characters, outside of events/crossovers. And for those Nightwing usually comes over too.

[Godlike13]

I don't think Bludhaven does that though. It is what you want it to do, but what it actually does is remove him from the bigger story content that fans actually want while being stuck in this cycle of not really producing anything that can stand alone in the end. I think you can tell just as good if not better stories just setting him in Gotham with everyone else. Since it is a setting that has the rogues and supporting characters that readers want to see in their natural setting. Top end ones. Bludhaven doesn't have any of that. You have to drag a Barbara or a Tim to Bludhaven from Gotham or drag in a top tier villain in from somewhere else because Bludhaven doesn't contain any of it on its own. It is why you don't see Bludhaven adapted in any other media. All they have done for it is make it a section of Gotham in the Young Justice show, but it served no real purpose, and is a net negative overall. I think spending so much time and effort in trying to make Bludhaven into something just isn't worth it.

Look at Tynion Batman’s run and why he had to lean so hard on all his new characters. They can’t just use whatever Bat character or rogues they want, but if they establish their own stable of characters they can use and control them more easily. That’s what Bludhaven does. It’s a Nightwing specific setting Nightwing’s creators can have a little more control to create in exclusively for Nightwing. It’s easy to get trapped in the formula it incentivizes, but there is a purpose for it. Like it or not. Established ecosystems like Bludhaven make it easier for them to more readily produce. For better or worse.

[Badou]

I don't think that you really need A-List villains for a stand out story, Batman has several ones with villains that were completely new at the time, like Year One, Court of the Owls or The Cult.

problem is more that they usually don't do big stand alone stories in the books the Batfamily members other than Batman.

Year One falls into the origin story I said before. Those can get around needed some top tier villain, but I already mentioned how Nightwing's origin story is so messy. Batman overall is in that unique position where he doesn't need top tier villains all the time since he is the biggest comic character around. Although most of his biggest stories involve his bigger villains as the focus or as supporting characters, but he can create new top tier villains by just creating great stories. Bane, Court of Owls, and so on, but I don't think anyone other than Spider-man has the ability to do that.

[Badou]

Look at Tynion Batman’s run and why he had to lean so hard on all his new characters. They can’t just use whatever Bat character or rogues they want, but if they establish their own stable of characters they can use and control them more easily. That’s what Bludhaven does. It’s a Nightwing specific setting Nightwing’s creators can control and create in. It’s easy to get trapped in the formula it incentivizes, but there is a purpose for it. Like it or not. Established ecosystems like Bludhaven make it easier for them to more readily produce. For better or worse.

Then why hasn't it worked? I think you have a very hard ceiling of what a Bludhaven can do. A Blockbuster is the best it can create after 25 years and the ecosystem hasn't really elevated the character or put him in a position to succeed like you think it can. If Taylor's run ends with Bludhaven still not really being able to create and hold great villains or supporting characters then maybe you have to start wondering if the setting itself is a problem. Where rather being this place to elevate Nightwing it is acting more like an anchor where writers get stuck in this cycle of retelling the same stories over and over by trying to "fix" Bludhaven with no real solution.