Justice Society of America #2 Review/Discussion

[TheCasualReader]

Not sure what we disagree on here, to be honest.

"The superhero genre being cop/military propaganda if you think abaout it"

"The superhero genre is fundamentally about the law-enforcement and military functions of the state being 'outsourced' to these private individuals who are supposed to be incorruptible and get the job done without any constraints. If superheroes existed in real-life, they'd be the nightmare of every left-wing progressive or 'woke' person (or even of an old-school liberal for that matter)."

"But you are right that there are obvious right-wing ideologies baked into the concept of superheroes. It's something I struggle with more the older I get."

[bat39]

"The superhero genre being cop/military propaganda if you think abaout it"

"The superhero genre is fundamentally about the law-enforcement and military functions of the state being 'outsourced' to these private individuals who are supposed to be incorruptible and get the job done without any constraints. If superheroes existed in real-life, they'd be the nightmare of every left-wing progressive or 'woke' person (or even of an old-school liberal for that matter)."

"But you are right that there are obvious right-wing ideologies baked into the concept of superheroes. It's something I struggle with more the older I get."

Okay, I guess you disagree with the framing we've given the superhero concept here. But ultimately I think we're just using different words to describe more or less describe the same ideas. You're right about superheroes ensuring protection and accountability - in an ideal world, that's the function the law enforcement and military serve, with the superheroes doing their jobs either because the authorities are corrupt, incompetent or simply out of their depth.

For the record, I don't think superheroes are necessarily military/cop propaganda. But it's very much possible to interpret them that way as well since functionally they serve the same purpose as the military or cops in the stories. They're what the military/cops should be, doing what the military/cops should do or wish they could do.

Yep; comics have room for both Green Lantern and Green Arrow. Frankly, while I wouldn't trust the current crop of writers to do it right, I think now would be a perfect time to revisit the “hard traveling heroes” concept, with a conservative hero and a liberal hero teaming up and taking a trip across America. But as I said, I wouldn't trust the current crop of writers to do it right; just about everyone at DC these days would likely treat the conservative member of the pair as a villain in all but name, which would defeat the point of the book every bit as much as treating the liberal hero as a villain in all but name would.

But we're getting off topic here.

Yeah, we are getting way off topic.

I think the biggest challenge with doing a new ''Hard Traveling Heroes'' is that 'conservative' and 'liberal' are labels that don't stand for what they stood for back in the 70's. The Bronze Age Ollie and Hal would, in today's political context, both be centrists and have far more in common with each other than with most self-proclaimed 'conservatives' or 'liberals' today.

It's been ages since I actually read those stories, but if I remember them correctly, they were also tackling some very serious ground-level issues that affected people's lives. A lot of political discourse today is just about toxic online slagging matches. I mean, do we expect Hal and Ollie to get into a fight about pronouns? Or Elon Musk? Will Ollie refuse to protect a Supreme Court judge who's pro-life? Will Hal use his ring to 'build the wall'?

[Dataweaver]

Okay, I guess you disagree with the framing we've given the superhero concept here. But ultimately I think we're just using different words to describe more or less describe the same ideas. You're right about superheroes ensuring protection and accountability - in an ideal world, that's the function the law enforcement and military serve, with the superheroes doing their jobs either because the authorities are corrupt, incompetent or simply out of their depth.

For the record, I don't think superheroes are necessarily military/cop propaganda. But it's very much possible to interpret them that way as well since functionally they serve the same purpose as the military or cops in the stories. They're what the military/cops should be, doing what the military/cops should do or wish they could do.



Yeah, we are getting way off topic.

I think the biggest challenge with doing a new ''Hard Traveling Heroes'' is that 'conservative' and 'liberal' are labels that don't stand for what they stood for back in the 70's. The Bronze Age Ollie and Hal would, in today's political context, both be centrists and have far more in common with each other than with most self-proclaimed 'conservatives' or 'liberals' today.

It's been ages since I actually read those stories, but if I remember them correctly, they were also tackling some very serious ground-level issues that affected people's lives. A lot of political discourse today is just about toxic online slagging matches. I mean, do we expect Hal and Ollie to get into a fight about pronouns? Or Elon Musk? Will Ollie refuse to protect a Supreme Court judge who's pro-life? Will Hal use his ring to 'build the wall'?

Depending on who's writing it, yes.

[Refrax5]

There are also lots of Liberal ideas in comics...especially these days. I am a liberal and I like seeing both as long as it is done right. Plenty of room for many peoples ideas and perspectives in comics as far as I am concerned. As long as it is done well and doesn't feel like an after school special.

That's true, but I mean on a deeper, more fundamental level. The idea of enforcing the law/morality with violence and the idea that superheroes frequently are defenders of the status quo and pummel lawbreakers instead of addressing the issues that create those lawbreakers...there's something very authoritarian about that. That's kind of what Watchmen was getting at. Then again, the original Superman stories were very much about fighting the corrupt authorities and defending the poor, so there's an argument to be made for the opposite, I suppose.

[bat39]

That's true, but I mean on a deeper, more fundamental level. The idea of enforcing the law/morality with violence and the idea that superheroes frequently are defenders of the status quo and pummel lawbreakers instead of addressing the issues that create those lawbreakers...there's something very authoritarian about that. That's kind of what Watchmen was getting at. Then again, the original Superman stories were very much about fighting the corrupt authorities and defending the poor, so there's an argument to be made for the opposite, I suppose.

The Golden Age Superman was still fighting for the status quo though...he was fighting to improve the status quo by doing what the authorities ought to have been doing - punishing criminals and predators that the law was either turning a blind eye to or unable to effectively deal with. Superman was trying to topple the government and reshape society. He wasn't trying to start some kind of socialist or Marxist uprising. He was more a vigilante who dispensed rough justice to make the world a better place, one punch at a time.

The JSA were literally created to defend the United States at a time of war, under the aegis of POTUS. Yeah, they may have been more idealistic and incorruptible than most of Washington but they were still playing for the same team.

[Jekyll]

I haven't read it - so I probably shouldn't judge - but it sounds like the issue leaves something to be desired.

Namely, the Justice Society of America.

Admittedly more focus is on Dr. Fate and Helena this issue

Sigh.........waited all of these years for the JSA for them to be a cameo in a Helena Wayne book.

[TheKryptonMan]

There are also lots of Liberal ideas in comics...especially these days. I am a liberal and I like seeing both as long as it is done right. Plenty of room for many peoples ideas and perspectives in comics as far as I am concerned. As long as it is done well and doesn't feel like an after school special.

I vote Democratic all the time or if I don't like the Democrat , then I don't vote. Just can't vote for a Republican . I guess that in some ways , I'm a bit Liberal . I mean I want Corporations to pay their fair share of taxes, but then I know that they'll just raise prices to offset their losses . So I'm a realist in that respect.
Even though I'm kind of Liberal , I like Batman handing out the Justice . Even if it's a right wing thing. I think that Bruce Wayne is portrayed as pretty generous to the community ( Gotham ) .
But there are more subtle references to Liberal Ideas nowadays in comics .

[Dataweaver]

I vote Democratic all the time or if I don't like the Democrat , then I don't vote. Just can't vote for a Republican . I guess that in some ways , I'm a bit Liberal . I mean I want Corporations to pay their fair share of taxes, but then I know that they'll just raise prices to offset their losses . So I'm a realist in that respect.
Even though I'm kind of Liberal , I like Batman handing out the Justice . Even if it's a right wing thing. I think that Bruce Wayne is portrayed as pretty generous to the community ( Gotham ) .
But there are more subtle references to Liberal Ideas nowadays in comics .

I think the idea that everything is either “left-wing” or “right-wing” is part of the problem we're facing. I don't see Batman's vigilantism as particularly right-wing; he's helping the poor and oppressed by striking fear into the hearts of those who would victimize them. He tends to work with the police department now; but that's only after the GCPD was reformed into a force that's also “looking out for the little guy”, more or less: when it was corrupt, he was every bit as much against it as he was against organized crime in Gotham City. And even today, his support for the GCPD is contingent on them being a force for good.

I don't think that's a particularly right-wing mindset to have; nor is it a particularly left-wing one. It's something that people across the political spectrum can agree is a good idea.

[MajorHoy]

Maybe we should just close this discussion if people aren't going to talk about Justice Society of America #2 itself?

[king of hybrids]

*looks at discourse arising from my snide comment*

I didn’t quite intend for the going off topic.

Considering the time period you’d think a JS Europe of JS International would be more likely than a JS Dark?

I’m assuming the focus on Helena is A) Bat connection and B) making sure Helena sticks around as a woman out of time?

[Dataweaver]

Were there enough international Golden Age heroes to form a Justice Society International? Also, remember that this was while World War II was ongoing; so a Justice Society Europe would likely be restricted to Allied countries (Great Britain, France, Spain, USSR, etc.)

[TheCasualReader]

"Justice Society Dark" sounds clunky and forced as hell.

Also, why is Mister Miracle leading it? Not hating on the guy, but isn't he a tech-based superhero?

[CaptCleghorn]

"Justice Society Dark" sounds clunky and forced as hell.

Also, why is Mister Miracle leading it? Not hating on the guy, but isn't he a tech-based superhero?

Both of these are reasons I am not liking the new JSA as much as I hoped. The heroes from the Golden Age and their legacies have enough of a history without applying variants of modern day characters and concepts to those times.

[Bruce Wayne]

Also, why is Mister Miracle leading it? Not hating on the guy, but isn't he a tech-based superhero?

This is the very original Mister Miracle, Thaddeus Brown, whose identity Scott Free took in the original Kirby Mister Miracle. The point is Johns retconned him into a Golden Age hero presumably since Morrison had done the opposite and made Shiloh Norman into Scott's successor in Seven Soldiers.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Calling them Shadowpact might've been better. JS Europe would've been cool.