[Theory] - Have the Mutants been actually tricked?

[Steel Inquisitor]

i would argue violating peoples basic human rights is far worse which humans do constantly. They test on each other, they test on animals, they test on mutants. They put humans in concentration camps, they put mutants in concentration camps. They kill humans, animals and mutants just because they can or they feign feeeeear and that's suppose to make it all okay. Not to mention if humans care so much about a cure why weren't they trying to cure the inhumans or did anything about them setting up in new york. Where is the cure for captain america and all the other human heroes running around including he fantastic four if it's about the fear of powers and people getting hurt. It's because it's about the fear of being replaced and thats it. It is canon the most dangerous thing in the marvel universe are humans. We learned this from every entity in the marvel universe including aliens. This too is canon fact.

The problem here is this stance isn't about basic human rights being violated being wrong, its hat its only wrong when its's done to mutants. Nobody should do that. Nobody is saying its all ok, the irony from this repose is that mutants doing it is acceptable. Even to each other! Once again reducing this to races rather than terrible people in both groups being awful. The Marvel universe has far more dangerous entities and races than humans. Absolutely no response to an attack which would have harmed millions of mutants in a single move. Curing the mutant gene would be wrong, but there are exceptions which it could be helpful like with Rogue. For years she couldn't touch people with risking putting them in a coma or killing them. The erasure of all the and things mutants have done to other peoples and other mutants shows that is more about what "group" you support rather than the things they do are bad in themselves. Genocide, murder, and propaganda is bad - whoever does it doesn't make it ok. Add in the fact you're defending people who have mutant blood on their hands because the X-men had the audacity to protect the world from them. Inhumans aren't as popular as mutants with editorial that's why they're not that big a priority for anyone, including Krakoa. Ben Grimm and Sharon ventura have struggled with trying to find cures for their conditions, and sometimes they find it. Super-heroes have also been hunted by the government within the last few years, and especially the eerily markings of Days of Future Past the X-men decided to sit it out and eventually sided with Norman Osborn and HYDRA. Cape killers were created, super-heroes were separated from their families, the Avengers went underground to survive, super-villains were brainwashed and drafted into hunting super-heroes. This want on for years. The aliens fear Earth, not just humans, its not like mutants on Earth aren't feared whenever the X-men get involved in galactic affairs.

Don't ignore the boundaries of editorial, otherwise mutants come off just as callous - like with "Ultron Unlimited." Ultron destroyed an entire country, and made its populace into undead cyborgs and the X-men not only did;t show up to help they never acknowledged it. There're endless reams of non-X titles this applies to. Despite the fact the X-men are supposed to be friends with these heroes.

[BroHomo]

We're pretty much tired and exhausted from all your trolling too. Your gaslighting got old months ago.

Lord I love this post!!

[numberthirty]

The problem here is this stance isn't about basic human rights being violated being wrong, its hat its only wrong when its's done to mutants. Nobody should do that. Nobody is saying its all ok, the irony from this repose is that mutants doing it is acceptable. Even to each other! Once again reducing this to races rather than terrible people in both groups being awful. The Marvel universe has far more dangerous entities and races than humans.

...

Which is an utter and complete non-issue when it has been humans who are carrying out the repeated assassination attempts.

Again, folks are discussing what is actually happening in the books. Namely, repeated assassination attempts that humans are behind.

[Kisinith]

The problem here is this stance isn't about basic human rights being violated being wrong, its hat its only wrong when its's done to mutants. Nobody should do that. Nobody is saying its all ok, the irony from this repose is that mutants doing it is acceptable. Even to each other! Once again reducing this to races rather than terrible people in both groups being awful. The Marvel universe has far more dangerous entities and races than humans. Absolutely no response to an attack which would have harmed millions of mutants in a single move. Curing the mutant gene would be wrong, but there are exceptions which it could be helpful like with Rogue. For years she couldn't touch people with risking putting them in a coma or killing them. The erasure of all the and things mutants have done to other peoples and other mutants shows that is more about what "group" you support rather than the things they do are bad in themselves. Genocide, murder, and propaganda is bad - whoever does it doesn't make it ok. Add in the fact you're defending people who have mutant blood on their hands because the X-men had the audacity to protect the world from them. Inhumans aren't as popular as mutants with editorial that's why they're not that big a priority for anyone, including Krakoa. Ben Grimm and Sharon ventura have struggled with trying to find cures for their conditions, and sometimes they find it. Super-heroes have also been hunted by the government within the last few years, and especially the eerily markings of Days of Future Past the X-men decided to sit it out and eventually sided with Norman Osborn and HYDRA. Cape killers were created, super-heroes were separated from their families, the Avengers went underground to survive, super-villains were brainwashed and drafted into hunting super-heroes. This want on for years. The aliens fear Earth, not just humans, its not like mutants on Earth aren't feared whenever the X-men get involved in galactic affairs.

Don't ignore the boundaries of editorial, otherwise mutants come off just as callous - like with "Ultron Unlimited." Ultron destroyed an entire country, and made its populace into undead cyborgs and the X-men not only did;t show up to help they never acknowledged it. There're endless reams of non-X titles this applies to. Despite the fact the X-men are supposed to be friends with these heroes.

And yet you continually ignore the context of whats going on with Krakoa. Krakoa is the mutants dealing with systemic anti-mutant racism on a macro scale. They are dealing with world governments that have consistently been, at their very best, indifferent to plight of mutants. In fact they are far more frequently active supporters of anti-mutant actions up to and including torture, enslavement and genocide. Further, as established in the current run, Russia who's ambassador you rush to defend against Frost's mental manipulation, is currently engaged in these very actions. It truly doesn't matter if even 90% (and it hasn't been anywhere that high probably ever) of the worlds population was pro mutant so long as the governments were against them.

Its absolutely ludicrous how quickly and ardently you demean and castigate mutants in the current run but ignore the context of their actions. You keep trying to throw stones at the Krakoans but you keep forgetting what they are doing for humanity. Curing all Cancers, Curing dementia and serious mental illness, 5 extra years of life, all for the low, low cost of "live and let live". The Krakoan drugs that Xavier is selling are the single greatest humanitarian gift in the history of the Marvel Universe. (Seriously, there is nothing in either the real or MU worlds that even comes close except maybe vaccinations, maybe) Yet in your eyes, it somehow does't matter because humans aren't allowed onto Krakoa without an invitation and Apocalypse, Magneto and Selene are all walking around free.

So what if they have invited the villains in if what they are doing is saving lives. Currently Apocalypse, Selene, Sinister and every other Krakoan mutant are not hurting, terrorizing or harming any humans, because the Krakoan status quo prevents that, a fact you totally ignore in every speech you make about how "bad" the X-Men are. The fact they have been invited in is a greater deterrent to mutant on human crime than anything in the history of the franchise.

The Crucible is ritualized murder! Except that its voluntary, empowering (literally and emotionally), restoring something that was stolen from them, and of course that the process requires them to die and be resurrected so the dying is kinda necessary. Its a legitimate philosophical question if it counts as murder (or suicide) if one doesn't stay dead (Which was also kind of the point).

Lets go one step further, narratively Apocalypse hasn't been interesting since "the 12" and that was 20 years ago. Is he a hero, hell no. Is he manipulating people and events, hell yes. Its something new and interesting with the character and the even more true with Mystique and Destiny. Mystique has been a played out, one note, boring ass character for so long that I despaired of her ever being even remotely interesting. Bringing the "villains" in hasn't changed their spots but it has changed the dynamic and its significantly more interesting than anything Marvel has done with its villains in years. Hickman and co. have made the bad guys into more nuanced characters with complex motivations and characterizations, sometimes they can even be sympathetic.

[Zelena]

“I forgive myself…“

[Steel Inquisitor]

And yet you continually ignore the context of whats going on with Krakoa. Krakoa is the mutants dealing with systemic anti-mutant racism on a macro scale. They are dealing with world governments that have consistently been, at their very best, indifferent to plight of mutants. In fact they are far more frequently active supporters of anti-mutant actions up to and including torture, enslavement and genocide. Further, as established in the current run, Russia who's ambassador you rush to defend against Frost's mental manipulation, is currently engaged in these very actions. It truly doesn't matter if even 90% (and it hasn't been anywhere that high probably ever) of the worlds population was pro mutant so long as the governments were against them.

Everyone knows this and nobody's saying it's not true or that crating a mutant nation in response is bad. However, what this does do is move the goal posts away from Krakao itself, don't question Krkao look at the outside world isn't a compelling argument. The context for Krakoa is that its a dictatorship filled with super-villains who barely have any restraints and has no moral high ground on human governments. The mansion's dead, don't go back to it like it's the status quo. Mother Mold;s in outer space, not in Xavier's backyard. Except many mutants living in or working in the highest positions in government have done those things and very recently, some have spent millennia doing it. Yes, the Russia are the bad guys in this status quo and? Ethics isn't simply about anything goes because it's someone you don't like, it's about the act itself. It has nothing to do with what genes they have have or what group they belong to.

Its absolutely ludicrous how quickly and ardently you demean and castigate mutants in the current run but ignore the context of their actions.

Don't conflate all mutants with krakoa, that shields the monsters in the ranks which they so eloquently shield from prosecution and no, I'm not talking about sabre tooth. It's incredibly hypercritical to only count one side's bad deeds while ignoring the other for the very same crimes. About the very same victims, even. I'm not talking about Beak here, I'm talking about about the biggest super-villains and their evil organisations who the X-men fought from the 60's. Context being the "current run" not the entirety off canon in Marvel 616. They didn't become redeemed angelic figures between the last X-men issue and House of X/Powers of X. They're the same people. But let's ignore what they did not humanity and non-mutants for a minute, what about all the crimes they committed on mutant kind? Why do they get the privilege of ignoring all their past crimes, and there are many which are gruesome, over their mutant victims? Some of which they share seats on the Quiet Council with.

You keep trying to throw stones at the Krakoans but you keep forgetting what they are doing for humanity. Curing all Cancers, Curing dementia and serious mental illness, 5 extra years of life, all for the low, low cost of "live and let live". The Krakoan drugs that Xavier is selling are the single greatest humanitarian gift in the history of the Marvel Universe. (Seriously, there is nothing in either the real or MU worlds that even comes close except maybe vaccinations, maybe) Yet in your eyes, it somehow does't matter because humans aren't allowed onto Krakoa without an invitation and Apocalypse, Magneto and Selene are all walking around free.

It's great that Krkaao is doing that for humanity, but it's nowhere near penance for the pain and suffering many of their citizens and government officials have inflicted on the world. Do they even regret this? From what I've seen they don't. They're not doing this for humanity, they've all but given up on being friendly with humanity and completely ignore every other non-mutant race. The only Atlantan they care about is Namor and only because he's a mutant, if he wasn't a mutant they wouldn't be giving him any positive attention. Krakoa isn't about "live and let live" - it's bribing countries to leave them alone while they slowly buy them out financially until mutants own the world. What's irritating is that this isn't necessarily a bad thing but how they go about it you'd think they're auditioning for Blofeld in the next James Bond. Those are separate issues with krakoa.

So what if they have invited the villains in if what they are doing is saving lives. Currently Apocalypse, Selene, Sinister and every other Krakoan mutant are not hurting, terrorizing or harming any humans, because the Krakoan status quo prevents that, a fact you totally ignore in every speech you make about how "bad" the X-Men are. The fact they have been invited in is a greater deterrent to mutant on human crime than anything in the history of the franchise.

They didn't "invite" anyone, they're not guests - they're citizens, government operatives and politicians. Apocalypse has been hurting Excalibur nearly from the start. The Quiet Council unleashed Sabretooth on an American corporation. Shaw murdered Kitty. Just because they're not doing evetything bad right now doesn't mean they shouldn't be punished or not be seen as a potential threat. The X-men weren't this lax with society when they are super-heroes, even when Magneto (and Joseph) joined. These individuals have been the biggest proponents off mutant on mutant crime until very recently, and some are still doing it. This ins't about the X-men, this is about the Krakoa government.

The Crucible is ritualized murder! Except that its voluntary, empowering (literally and emotionally), restoring something that was stolen from them, and of course that the process requires them to die and be resurrected so the dying is kinda necessary. Its a legitimate philosophical question if it counts as murder (or suicide) if one doesn't stay dead (Which was also kind of the point).

That it is. Cult sacrifices don't have to be forced, they can be voluntary. Everything around the Crucible's ritual is suspect and in character for Apocalypse. They don't have too die like that to be resurrected, that's the problem. It's theatre, not a medical procedure. We know all the de powered mutants have to do is kill themselves to be "reborn" and they don't need extravagant cult rituals to do it. Krakao knows the outside world wouldn't approve since they're not broadcasting this ritual to the international press, instead everyone must stay quiet about it. Even people who are disturbed by it and keeping their mouths shut about it.

Lets go one step further, narratively Apocalypse hasn't been interesting since "the 12" and that was 20 years ago. Is he a hero, hell no. Is he manipulating people and events, hell yes. Its something new and interesting with the character and the even more true with Mystique and Destiny. Mystique has been a played out, one note, boring ass character for so long that I despaired of her ever being even remotely interesting. Bringing the "villains" in hasn't changed their spots but it has changed the dynamic and its significantly more interesting than anything Marvel has done with its villains in years. Hickman and co. have made the bad guys into more nuanced characters with complex motivations and characterizations, sometimes they can even be sympathetic.

This isn't about characters being interesting, its' about characters being villains and being threats. He's been manipulating people since he joined Krakoa, that's all he'd done in Excalibur. Selene is still being a super-villain in Captain America. Msytqiyue is her same old self, her working with the X-men isn't new she's done it by secretly working as Xavier's assassin, as well as on Rogue's team - who she betrayed to Sinister. You're right this stays quo has created exciting dynamics and storylines but that's what I was talking about. It's really not that hard to agree that anyone who genocide, murder and other crimes which ruins peoples lives is wrong by anyone who does it, this shouldn't be a controversial stance anywhere but here it is. Despite knowing all you know about these characters you still don't call them villains. They're still bad guys, though. Hickman may have made a new spin, but he's repurposed old characterisations and ideas not but everything from the ground up.

And again continuing to ignore the plights of people outside the X-books. Would be interesting to see the mutants from Slovenia giving the Quiet Council a piece of their mind when they stood by and did nothing while Ultron killed them all.

[Zelena]

Everyone knows this and nobody's saying it's not true or that crating a mutant nation in response is bad. However, what this does do is move the goal posts away from Krakao itself, don't question Krkao look at the outside world isn't a compelling argument. The context for Krakoa is that its a dictatorship filled with super-villains who barely have any restraints and has no moral high ground on human governments. The mansion's dead, don't go back to it like it's the status quo. Mother Mold;s in outer space, not in Xavier's backyard. Except many mutants living in or working in the highest positions in government have done those things and very recently, some have spent millennia doing it. Yes, the Russia are the bad guys in this status quo and? Ethics isn't simply about anything goes because it's someone you don't like, it's about the act itself. It has nothing to do with what genes they have have or what group they belong to.



Don't conflate all mutants with krakoa, that shields the monsters in the ranks which they so eloquently shield from prosecution and no, I'm not talking about sabre tooth. It's incredibly hypercritical to only count one side's bad deeds while ignoring the other for the very same crimes. About the very same victims, even. I'm not talking about Beak here, I'm talking about about the biggest super-villains and their evil organisations who the X-men fought from the 60's. Context being the "current run" not the entirety off canon in Marvel 616. They didn't become redeemed angelic figures between the last X-men issue and House of X/Powers of X. They're the same people. But let's ignore what they did not humanity and non-mutants for a minute, what about all the crimes they committed on mutant kind? Why do they get the privilege of ignoring all their past crimes, and there are many which are gruesome, over their mutant victims? Some of which they share seats on the Quiet Council with.



It's great that Krkaao is doing that for humanity, but it's nowhere near penance for the pain and suffering many of their citizens and government officials have inflicted on the world. Do they even regret this? From what I've seen they don't. They're not doing this for humanity, they've all but given up on being friendly with humanity and completely ignore every other non-mutant race. The only Atlantan they care about is Namor and only because he's a mutant, if he wasn't a mutant they wouldn't be giving him any positive attention. Krakoa isn't about "live and let live" - it's bribing countries to leave them alone while they slowly buy them out financially until mutants own the world. What's irritating is that this isn't necessarily a bad thing but how they go about it you'd think they're auditioning for Blofeld in the next James Bond. Those are separate issues with krakoa.



They didn't "invite" anyone, they're not guests - they're citizens, government operatives and politicians. Apocalypse has been hurting Excalibur nearly from the start. The Quiet Council unleashed Sabretooth on an American corporation. Shaw murdered Kitty. Just because they're not doing evetything bad right now doesn't mean they shouldn't be punished or not be seen as a potential threat. The X-men weren't this lax with society when they are super-heroes, even when Magneto (and Joseph) joined. These individuals have been the biggest proponents off mutant on mutant crime until very recently, and some are still doing it. This ins't about the X-men, this is about the Krakoa government.



That it is. Cult sacrifices don't have to be forced, they can be voluntary. Everything around the Crucible's ritual is suspect and in character for Apocalypse. They don't have too die like that to be resurrected, that's the problem. It's theatre, not a medical procedure. We know all the de powered mutants have to do is kill themselves to be "reborn" and they don't need extravagant cult rituals to do it. Krakao knows the outside world wouldn't approve since they're not broadcasting this ritual to the international press, instead everyone must stay quiet about it. Even people who are disturbed by it and keeping their mouths shut about it.



This isn't about characters being interesting, its' about characters being villains and being threats. He's been manipulating people since he joined Krakoa, that's all he'd done in Excalibur. Selene is still being a super-villain in Captain America. Msytqiyue is her same old self, her working with the X-men isn't new she's done it by secretly working as Xavier's assassin, as well as on Rogue's team - who she betrayed to Sinister. You're right this stays quo has created exciting dynamics and storylines but that's what I was talking about. It's really not that hard to agree that anyone who genocide, murder and other crimes which ruins peoples lives is wrong by anyone who does it, this shouldn't be a controversial stance anywhere but here it is. Despite knowing all you know about these characters you still don't call them villains. They're still bad guys, though. Hickman may have made a new spin, but he's repurposed old characterisations and ideas not but everything from the ground up.

And again continuing to ignore the plights of people outside the X-books. Would be interesting to see the mutants from Slovenia giving the Quiet Council a piece of their mind when they stood by and did nothing while Ultron killed them all.

Slovenia? Ah… Slorenia.

[misty101]

can someone do a tl;dr briefing for us?

[jwatson]

The problem here is this stance isn't about basic human rights being violated being wrong, its hat its only wrong when its's done to mutants. Nobody should do that. Nobody is saying its all ok, the irony from this repose is that mutants doing it is acceptable. Even to each other! Once again reducing this to races rather than terrible people in both groups being awful. The Marvel universe has far more dangerous entities and races than humans. Absolutely no response to an attack which would have harmed millions of mutants in a single move. Curing the mutant gene would be wrong, but there are exceptions which it could be helpful like with Rogue. For years she couldn't touch people with risking putting them in a coma or killing them. The erasure of all the and things mutants have done to other peoples and other mutants shows that is more about what "group" you support rather than the things they do are bad in themselves. Genocide, murder, and propaganda is bad - whoever does it doesn't make it ok. Add in the fact you're defending people who have mutant blood on their hands because the X-men had the audacity to protect the world from them. Inhumans aren't as popular as mutants with editorial that's why they're not that big a priority for anyone, including Krakoa. Ben Grimm and Sharon ventura have struggled with trying to find cures for their conditions, and sometimes they find it. Super-heroes have also been hunted by the government within the last few years, and especially the eerily markings of Days of Future Past the X-men decided to sit it out and eventually sided with Norman Osborn and HYDRA. Cape killers were created, super-heroes were separated from their families, the Avengers went underground to survive, super-villains were brainwashed and drafted into hunting super-heroes. This want on for years. The aliens fear Earth, not just humans, its not like mutants on Earth aren't feared whenever the X-men get involved in galactic affairs.

Don't ignore the boundaries of editorial, otherwise mutants come off just as callous - like with "Ultron Unlimited." Ultron destroyed an entire country, and made its populace into undead cyborgs and the X-men not only did;t show up to help they never acknowledged it. There're endless reams of non-X titles this applies to. Despite the fact the X-men are supposed to be friends with these heroes.

So why isn't someone like magneto's opinion more valid than anyone else. Magneto was persecuted when he was human for being jewish and put into a concentration camp and then he was persecuted as a mutant for being a mutant. So if anyone magneto can say it doesn't matter at all to some humans. They will persecuted you no matter what while others turn a blind eye. You can't hit him with the cure B's. When he was being hunted before he was even a mutant.

[Zelena]

So why isn't someone like magneto's opinion more valid than anyone else. Magneto was persecuted when he was human for being jewish and put into a concentration camp and then he was persecuted as a mutant for being a mutant. So if anyone magneto can say it doesn't matter at all to some humans. They will persecuted you no matter what while others turn a blind eye. You can't hit him with the cure B's. When he was being hunted before he was even a mutant.

Magneto was persecuted before he was even a mutant… as his family was persecuted…
He should feel empathy for everyone that is persecuted for whatever reason and not just for being a mutant.
Claremont’s Magneto was less a bastard in that aspect.

[jwatson]

Magneto was persecuted before he was even a mutant… as his family was persecuted…
He should feel empathy for everyone that is persecuted for whatever reason and not just for being a mutant.
Claremont’s Magneto was less a bastard in that aspect.

But his history shows humans are fooling themselves. They claim they persecute mutants because they fear them and magneto could easily go. "Then why was I persecuted as a powerless l, defenseless boy for being jewish.'

[Zelena]

But his history shows humans are fooling themselves. They claim they persecute mutants because they fear them and magneto could easily go. "Then why was I persecuted as a powerless l, defenseless boy for being jewish.'

Propaganda made the Jews appear like a threat.
In Marvel Universe, you just need a TV to see that the mutant destructive, disruptive powers are real… You can make a narrative from that, exaggerate the consequences but it’s not a fiction…

Edit: Both situations are different, but the feeling of unfairness is the same.
The mutants are not immune from that: didn’t Xavier use his power on Reed Richards for something the scientist might do?

[jwatson]

Propaganda made the Jews appear like a threat.
In Marvel Universe, you just need a TV to see that the mutant destructive, disruptive powers are real… You can make a narrative from that, exaggerate the consequences but it’s not a fiction…

And there it goes. So human nature will always get in the way of truth. Propaganda is all it takes to bring out the worst in humanity so the post will be forever moving in what they feel threatened by. Boom. There ya go.

[Steel Inquisitor]

But his history shows humans are fooling themselves. They claim they persecute mutants because they fear them and magneto could easily go. "Then why was I persecuted as a powerless l, defenseless boy for being jewish.'

As a boy it did, as an adult he became what he hated. Every single death by his hands made it harder for mutant kind to be accepted. People don't like it when their loved ones are murdered by another group - this is the hypocrisy Eric became as a super-villain. Magneto doesn't speak just with words, he actively kills scores of people in horrifying ways. Including mutants who oppose him or are "sacrificed" to cow the world into giving him wants, which often leads to conquering a country or the world. And as you know Magneto's just one person, there are scores of mutant and who commits acts of terror in his name. This is especially bad for a marginalised sub-group who are oppressed around the world, since he isa big part of how they are represented to the world. Magneto made that himself, it's not like they voted him in to that position.

And there it goes. So human nature will always get in the way of truth. Propaganda is all it takes to bring out the worst in humanity so the post will be forever moving in what they feel threatened by. Boom. There ya go.

The problem is all anti-mutant bigots need is the facts with Magneto, you've read the stories he's in in the Marvel universe that's canon - not propaganda. Again, he started by trying to kill mutant kids.

[numberthirty]

As a boy it did, as an adult he became what he hated. Every single death by his hands made it harder for mutant kind to be accepted. People don't like it when their loved ones are murdered by another group - this is the hypocrisy Eric became as a super-villain. Magneto doesn't speak just with words, he actively kills scores of people in horrifying ways. Including mutants who oppose him or are "sacrificed" to cow the world into giving him wants, which often leads to conquering a country or the world. And as you know Magneto's just one person, there are scores of mutant and who commits acts of terror in his name. This is especially bad for a marginalised sub-group who are oppressed around the world, since he isa big part of how they are represented to the world. Magneto made that himself, it's not like they voted him in to that position.

...

The rescued refugee kids who said they wanted to be like Magneto?

They wanted me to tell you that your read on things appears to be faulty.