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  1. #91
    Mighty Member Viteh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    In that case, among the Illuminati, which ones need the brain, the heart, the courage, and the way home?

    I mean, if you're going that way, might as well go the whole way...
    Rogers needs the brain, Namor needs the heart, and Tchalla needs the courage.

  2. #92
    Genesis of A Nemesis KOSLOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    In that case, among the Illuminati, which ones need the brain, the heart, the courage, and the way home?

    I mean, if you're going that way, might as well go the whole way...
    Just wait... my money is this is all resolved in "Operation: Ruby Slippers."
    Pull List:

    Marvel Comics: Venom, X-Men, Black Panther, Captain America, Eternals, Warhammer 40000.
    DC Comics: The Last God
    Image: Decorum

  3. #93
    Wakandan Kaiju robreedwrites's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viteh View Post
    I had spoilt myself yesterday, now that I've read the whole issue I'm a little dissapointed. Not in the reveal, I'm okay with that, but the lack of explaining. Besides Doom being The Great Destroyer we learned nothing. Nothing about who the Black Swans are, nothing about the incursions, or what Doom's plan is. The issue could have easily just been the last 4 pages.
    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I 100% agree with the decompression bit.

    But I think this issue is taking things a bit too far. This issue might as well be five pages long because the only thing we got from it is that Doom is Rabum Alal.
    I actually thought, from a narrative standpoint, we got a bit in this issue. It answers who is going after Rabum Alal and partially what happened to Doom and Molecule Man. Granted, a bit of that was spoiled in the previews, but I have a feeling that if one was just reading the story, it's a pretty interesting issue. I've got a friend who has only read this Avengers/New Avengers run. I'll let folks know his reaction when he reads this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cap10nate View Post
    Isn't Stark sitting in a cell in Wakanda? I thought the last we saw of him, Black Widow and Spider-Woman broke in, saw him there, and left him. I don't remember if it was in Avengers or Avengers World.
    Stark escaped (in New Avengers #29, the Illuminati come across his broken cage.)

  4. #94
    Spectacular Member markallenchi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hariel0079 View Post
    spoilers:
    end of spoilers
    This just makes me think these Beyonders are probably some creation of Ultimate Reed. Doom and Ultimate Reed created this entire story inorder to create and rule battleworld. I bet the Beyonders are some form of the Children Ultimate Reed created.
    Mark Allen Chi

  5. #95
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spear of Bashenga View Post
    Just wait... my money is this is all resolved in "Operation: Ruby Slippers."
    So now we need Dorothy (Valeria?), Toto (Beast?) and the Wicked Witch of the West....Black Swan?

  6. #96
    Genesis of A Nemesis KOSLOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    So now we need Dorothy (Valeria?), Toto (Beast?) and the Wicked Witch of the West....Black Swan?
    See, this whole theory checks out.

    I'm betting they are brining in Weird World solely because Marvel can't get the rights to "Zardoz".
    Pull List:

    Marvel Comics: Venom, X-Men, Black Panther, Captain America, Eternals, Warhammer 40000.
    DC Comics: The Last God
    Image: Decorum

  7. #97
    Spectacular Member markallenchi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    You guys should try turning the pages more slowly if you're not enjoying the issues. :-)

    Still Val/Nathaniel behind the scenes here - question is whether Doom is aware of it or not. Nathaniel/Val have been shown to have a Kang-like ability to run iterations on timelines, so she could have started the incursions / built the library and known that Doom would make his way there (young Val was living in Latveria while he was plotting - not that young Val had to necessarily know (I wouldn't personally want to try and keep secrets from her though)). F4 611 included in the prelude which isn't released for a while yet - so we may not have a reveal until SW proper, which I hadn't counted on (get the unknown-to-the-market extended Richards clan plotlines wrapped up before the big event) but which pleases me greatly.
    Yea, I think Val built the Library and it's just a bunch of Bridges (she mentioned she has become good at building them). Franklin also mentioned that the problem is Reed, so the fact that Ultimate Reed has something to do with this is not suprising. Agree that Val and Franklin are sill pulling the strings.
    Mark Allen Chi

  8. #98
    Spectacular Member markallenchi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTraveler View Post
    I think that we have our answer now. Fantastic Four 605.1 has us witness the destruction of an Earth, and a whole Universe, when a Reed/Doom hybrid loses control of an Infinity Gauntlet while under assault by that world's Avengers. That would probably be the destroyed Earth.

    On it's own, that wouldn't have caused the incursions, but it almost certainly would have shocked the hell out of the Ivory Kings. We've seen Earth at the center of events that could have resulted in the death of everything before (Marvel 1602, Age of Apocalypse, possibly Age of Ultron). The 616 Earth even beat the Beyonder (one of their child units). It is likely that the Ivory Kings decided to heck with this. They decided to tear down the multiverse and build something better using the Map Makers to ensure they get everything.

    Doom in Fantastic Four 611 finds a gauntlet and creates a Universe in his image in the place of the destroyed universe. As the Multiverse had already contracted, the forced in Universe could have caused the first Incursions by pushing together Earths "close" to each other. Thus starts the Incursions thanks to Doom.

    Meanwhile, during Time Runs Out, Owen Reese the Molecule Man hints to Doom that he has a bigger role in what is happening than even he realizes and takes Doom back "to the beginning." There Doom learns two important things: His role in what happened and the fact the Ivory Kings have started to work towards destroying it all.

    Doom realizes that even with Owen to back him up, he can not take on the Ivory Kings alone. He barely survived alone against 4 mad Celestials and so Doom sees an opportunity with the Incursions. Using the Swans (who he recruits using the Library of Worlds built by the Ivory Kings), Doom starts the great Game. The Swans will find each Universes Manifold, use the Manifold to continue to ensure Incursions happen, and build up an army of heroes and villains as the Incursions play out. Each destroyed Earth will leave behind a small trace on the victor allowing them to pick up rements of each Universe as they travel through the Incursions. Doom can then build Battleword, and his army, using those remnants.

    This is where Val and Franklin come in. Franklin will do the actual building of Battleworld using the Rogue Planet he helps ensure goes back in time. Val is doing a lot of the planning behind the scenes to make this plan come to fruition. Once Doom, Val, Franklin, and Owen build the Battleworld, they can use the army of heroes and villains to take on the Ivory Kings.

    Whew. Quite a plan.
    Yep. Doom is the Great Destoryer because he (or some part of him) was responsible for the origins of the collapse. And when he created the new universe, that escalated the problem causing the Beyonders to say "Screw this. Let's kill it all". Makes pefect sense.
    Mark Allen Chi

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spear of Bashenga View Post
    I didn't complain, I just said I think it would have been cool if it was The Void/Sentry. If that's a complaint it's one of the most mild ones I've ever issued.
    I didn't read your comment and wasn't referring to it but rather to the general complaints others have made that the Doom reveal was poor or underwhelming.

  10. #100
    Fantastic Member mbeezy561's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markallenchi View Post
    Yep. Doom is the Great Destoryer because he (or some part of him) was responsible for the origins of the collapse. And when he created the new universe, that escalated the problem causing the Beyonders to say "Screw this. Let's kill it all". Makes pefect sense.
    And when all of this is over and done, they need to line Doom up and put a bullet in his head, it's ridicoulous, literally hundreds of Universes died because of him, TRILLIONS of people, that's just ridicoulous, the worse thing a villian has ever caused in the MU

  11. #101
    Mighty Member Shai-Hulud's Avatar
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    I'm fine with the reveal, and with the pacing. A long slow burn is fine with me.

    But I wonder: where was it first said that Rabum Alal was new character? Did Hickman actually say that or has it always been just a fan rumor?

  12. #102
    BANNED dragonmp93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shai-Hulud View Post
    I'm fine with the reveal, and with the pacing. A long slow burn is fine with me.

    But I wonder: where was it first said that Rabum Alal was new character? Did Hickman actually say that or has it always been just a fan rumor?
    I think it was just rumors, because well, its not like there is a lot characters that could pull something like that off.

  13. #103
    Fantastic Member Mooper Films's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markallenchi View Post
    Yep. Doom is the Great Destoryer because he (or some part of him) was responsible for the origins of the collapse. And when he created the new universe, that escalated the problem causing the Beyonders to say "Screw this. Let's kill it all". Makes perfect sense.
    I think that's exactly it! This all goes back to the Parliament of Doom and him creating a new universe.
    Mooper Films

  14. #104
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    Good. Good revelation, decent suspense, we'll all be looking forward to getting more details.

    I'm still certain the original Beyonder is involved somehow, in spite of him being dismissed as a ineffectual child form.

    Nice to see Owen doing his thing, unlimited resources in a human frame. I hope Battleworld has an Owen vs Sentry area, so the Senster can get his comeuppance.

  15. #105
    Spectacular Member markallenchi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTraveler View Post
    As for the reveal itself: In this issue we did see the end of the Black Priests, something I expected would happen before the end. They weren't going to make it to Secret Wars. I have doubts about the Map Makers too. Doom's reveal is played as the big punch, but I think falls a bit flat. That isn't surprising as Hickman said this is a horror story, not a mystery. In horror stories the emphasis isn't on the reveal of the big bad... its on the fact that even knowing who the big bad is you're still really screwed. If anything, this felt like the reveal of the last of the Final Five over in Battlestar Galactica. The reveal isn't some huge shock...the implication is. Here, Doom being Rabum Alal means we aren't dealing with an Ivory Kings level guy who you can play off against the nihilistic Beyonders. He's essentially as screwed as we are. In BSG, the Final Cyclon reveal meant no outside help was coming for Humanity.

    I'd also add, there were a lot of hints. Hickman played this straight. The Council of Reeds warn our Reed in Fantastic Four 571 (the second issue of Hickman's run):

    "You don't know it yet, but you'll learn that there is no greater threat in the universe than Doom--His appetite is unmatched. He will never break. He will never yield."
    You are so on point. That's why I love the fact that it is Doom. Hickman has been building to this and planting seeds for years. But remember, "All hope lies in Doom".
    Mark Allen Chi

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