Are all these Crises and REBIRTHS necessary

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

If anything, Rebirth Superman's attack on Lex in the opening Action issue was less provoked than this. Just going to show that even pre-FP Superman can and has been quick to anger as well. So there is a double-standard at play depending on which version of Superman it is being hot-heated.

Not really. Superman in Action remembers Lex as being the guy responsible for years' worth of villainy and suffering and the guy who has committed unspeakable acts, all aimed at destroying Superman and his legacy. So, when he sees Lex sporting the S shield, its not completely irrational for him to assume that Lex's motivations are sinister.

[darkseidpwns]

The difference between the 2 Supermen whether actually existent or not was certainly perpetuated by DC and the New fans themselves and they still do everytime they take a dig at Superdad or claim he's not their Superman. Dont blame the people who bought the narrative.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

And Superman tells Batman he was already attacked by someone with a similar box, which leads Clark to assume Batman's in league with Darkseid because he has a Mother Box himself. Bruce also tells Hal Clark was already angry before they arrived at Metropolis to talk to him.

So...he blindly attacks them without any further proof? All because he's worked up because somebody completely unrelated attacked him earlier? Yeah, sounds like a really smart and tactical decision. [/sarcasm]

[Netherman14]

Superman's "turf"? What is this? The Bloods and the Crips? Also, Hal and Batman look like humans. I'm pretty sure any moron could tell they weren't parademons.

You have a problem, go talk to Geoff Johns. he wrote those initial issues.

[Netherman14]

Not really. Superman in Action remembers Lex as being the guy responsible for years' worth of villainy and suffering and the guy who has committed unspeakable acts, all aimed at destroying Superman and his legacy. So, when he sees Lex sporting the S shield, its not completely irrational for him to assume that Lex's motivations are sinister.

Yes, it is irrational. because that's not the same Lex (yet unfortunately), Nu52 Lex spent a lot less time as a supervillain. then he redeemed himself and started being a superhero himself instead.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Yes, it is irrational. because that's not the same Lex (yet unfortunately), Nu52 Lex spent a lot less time as a supervillain. then he redeemed himself and started being a superhero himself instead.

But it actually might be the same Lex. If the whole mission statement of Rebirth is to be taken at face value, everybody is the same as their Pre-Flashpoint selves, they've only had years stolen from their lives. So, it actually could be the same Lex who once committed mass murder when he turned off all of the Everyman Project's recipients and who paralyzed his own sister and who took control of Superboy and turned him on the Titans, but his actual commission of those acts is up in some "Hypertime cloud" somewhere in like a little safe held by Dr. Manhattan. Doesn't change the fact that he would still do it. Like Superman said in the recent JL issue: still the same man, but with a different life.

[Sacred Knight]

Not really. Superman in Action remembers Lex as being the guy responsible for years' worth of villainy and suffering and the guy who has committed unspeakable acts, all aimed at destroying Superman and his legacy. So, when he sees Lex sporting the S shield, its not completely irrational for him to assume that Lex's motivations are sinister.

Very much really. He physically attacked Lex too, completely unprovoked outside of verbal jabs. And Superman knows at this point this is not the same Lex Luthor (the REAL truth aside, as that's irrelevant since these characters at this point in time can operate only on what they at least believe to be truth), so that excuse doesn't fly. Hell he even knows, and has voiced by now, that he was being irrational. At its base, simplest terms what we had is Superman just losing his temper. He has in fact lost his temper more than once since his return. Which is what New 52 Superman did in that first Action issue. He was what was a potential attack on his home, and he lost his temper. Its the exact same thing. Only what Superman it was colors the interpreations one way or the other. You're willing to make excuses for Rebirth Superman losing his temper and attacking Lex just because he doesn't like him. I'm making excuses for New 52 Superman losing his temper and attacking a stranger superhero because of a misunderstanding. But stepping aside and looking at things rationally, it was entirely the same, both to be either defended, or condemned, equally.

[Crazy Diamond]

Before Flashpoint, Superman wouldn't have attacked Green Lantern and Batman on sight before even trying to talk to them once they landed in Metropolis. After Flashpoint, he was apparently a guy who did exactly that.

It's not Superman's fault that Geoff Johns is a crappy writer.

New 52 Superman had its flaws but at least it didn't have stuff like Grounded and a million Kryptonians popping all over the damn place. The marriage wasn't a big deal because hey they could just have Superman and Lois get married again if they needed that. It's not like it was handled very well pre-Flashpoint. If they had not let writers like Jeph Loeb shoehorn every single Silver Age idea they could think of back onto Superman maybe he wouldn't have been in such bad shape by 2010.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

It's not Superman's fault that Geoff Johns is a crappy writer.

New 52 Superman had its flaws but at least it didn't have stuff like Grounded and a million Kryptonians popping all over the damn place. The marriage wasn't a big deal because hey they could just have Superman and Lois get married again if they needed that. It's not like it was handled very well pre-Flashpoint. If they had not let writers like Jeph Loeb shoehorn every single Silver Age idea they could think of back onto Superman maybe he wouldn't have been in such bad shape by 2010.

You know what else New 52 Superman didn't have? Pretty much every classic story that made Superman Superman.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Very much really. He physically attacked Lex too, completely unprovoked outside of verbal jabs. And Superman knows at this point this is not the same Lex Luthor (the REAL truth aside, as that's irrelevant since these characters at this point in time can operate only on what they at least believe to be truth), so that excuse doesn't fly. Hell he even knows, and has voiced by now, that he was being irrational. At its base, simplest terms what we had is Superman just losing his temper. He has in fact lost his temper more than once since his return. Which is what New 52 Superman did in that first Action issue. He was what was a potential attack on his home, and he lost his temper. Its the exact same thing. Only what Superman it was colors the interpreations one way or the other. You're willing to make excuses for Rebirth Superman losing his temper and attacking Lex just because he doesn't like him. I'm making excuses for New 52 Superman losing his temper and attacking a stranger superhero because of a misunderstanding. But stepping aside and looking at things rationally, it was entirely the same, both to be either defended, or condemned, equally.

Yeah, Superman lost his temper. But, unlike Nuperman, at least Pre-FP Superman had at least some reason behind losing his temper, even if it wasn't the most well-founded. Seeing someone who has been your sworn enemy for years taking up your symbol and claiming it as their own would be enough to send anyone into a rage. The first issue of New 52 JL, however, is not that. Superman had no reason to attack GL other than he was a warm body in the midst of a crisis. At best, Nuperman just assumes that GL and Batman are part of the invasion force without any evidence, showing that he never thought through his actions. At worst, it shows that his M.O. was punch first, ask questions later.

[GlennSimpson]

Yeah, Superman lost his temper. But, unlike Nuperman, at least Pre-FP Superman had at least some reason behind losing his temper, even if it wasn't the most well-founded. Seeing someone who has been your sworn enemy for years taking up your symbol and claiming it as their own would be enough to send anyone into a rage. The first issue of New 52 JL, however, is not that. Superman had no reason to attack GL other than he was a warm body in the midst of a crisis. At best, Nuperman just assumes that GL and Batman are part of the invasion force without any evidence, showing that he never thought through his actions. At worst, it shows that his M.O. was punch first, ask questions later.

Well, yes, Nuperman was a younger Superman. He pretty much hadn't enountered any other costumed individuals who weren't threats prior to that point.

On the other hand, Dad Superman is more experienced, has visited other dimensions and should know that just because someone is a "Luthor" they aren't necessarily evil. Worth observing, sure, but attacking was not merited.

You want to argue that Dad Superman is more "Superman" because of his experience, but that experience should have made him less likely to attack Luthor. Nuperman, being yonger, had more of an excuse.

And for a lot of us, having a brash impulsive Superman was much more interesting than worldly-wise-never-messes-up Superman.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Well, yes, Nuperman was a younger Superman. He pretty much hadn't enountered any other costumed individuals who weren't threats prior to that point.

Had he encountered people before? Because it seems like he couldn't tell the difference between parademon and person.

On the other hand, Dad Superman is more experienced, has visited other dimensions and should know that just because someone is a "Luthor" they aren't necessarily evil. Worth observing, sure, but attacking was not merited.

You want to argue that Dad Superman is more "Superman" because of his experience, but that experience should have made him less likely to attack Luthor. Nuperman, being yonger, had more of an excuse.

He's had experience with Luthor seemingly try to act benevolent before, only to be in truth furthering his own agenda and actually being the same villain he's always been. Remember when Lex was elected President and abused the office to harass Superman and the metahuman community? Or when Lex founded the Everyman Project under the guise of giving normal people powers and even helped bankroll a new Infinity Inc. and then killed all of them when he found out he wasn't compatible with the treatment?

Yeah, Superman has had decades of experience with this guy pulling the wool over everyone else's eyes and then utilizing that to get away with murder (sometimes literally), so I don't think he's completely out of line in trying to prevent it before it starts up again with him. And we all know its only a matter of time before Luthor shows his true colors again and Supes will have been proven right.

That's different from attacking two people, with no idea as to who they are or what they're doing there, simply because they're wearing brightly-colored outfits. What, he couldn't have stuck to the shadows and listened into their conversation to see what they were doing there? He couldn't hold off on the offensive for a second?

And for a lot of us, having a brash impulsive Superman was much more interesting than worldly-wise-never-messes-up Superman.

Well, what can I say? Apparently it wasn't enough people to keep the sales going.

[MajorHoy]

Superman's "turf"? What is this? The Bloods and the Crips? Also, Hal and Batman look like humans. I'm pretty sure any moron could tell they weren't parademons.

That's funny . . . who says all of Darkseid's armies are made up of just parademons?
None of those who serve under him look a little more like humans than parademons?

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

That's funny . . . who says all of Darkseid's armies are made up of just parademons?
None of those who serve under him look a little more like humans than parademons?

None of whom were part of the invasion force that Darkseid had sent in the JL: Origin arc. My memory may be fuzzy on it, but it was literally 100% parademons. They didn't even know what Darkseid looked like at that point. So, I'm not saying that he shouldn't have been suspicious. But I assume that anyone in that situation would look at two very obviously human individuals and think: "I should hold off on attacking until I know for sure that they're with those monsters."

[GlennSimpson]

Had he encountered people before? Because it seems like he couldn't tell the difference between parademon and person.



He's had experience with Luthor seemingly try to act benevolent before, only to be in truth furthering his own agenda and actually being the same villain he's always been. Remember when Lex was elected President and abused the office to harass Superman and the metahuman community? Or when Lex founded the Everyman Project under the guise of giving normal people powers and even helped bankroll a new Infinity Inc. and then killed all of them when he found out he wasn't compatible with the treatment?

Yeah, Superman has had decades of experience with this guy pulling the wool over everyone else's eyes and then utilizing that to get away with murder (sometimes literally), so I don't think he's completely out of line in trying to prevent it before it starts up again with him. And we all know its only a matter of time before Luthor shows his true colors again and Supes will have been proven right.

That's different from attacking two people, with no idea as to who they are or what they're doing there, simply because they're wearing brightly-colored outfits. What, he couldn't have stuck to the shadows and listened into their conversation to see what they were doing there? He couldn't hold off on the offensive for a second?



Well, what can I say? Apparently it wasn't enough people to keep the sales going.

He had encountered people, but not necessarily any wearing costumes who were good guys. Nobody is saying he thought they were parademons, but they could have been the guys in charge. One of them was dressed like a BAT for God's sake. Batman is SUPPOSED TO BE SCARY.

And Dad Superman certainly has reasons to be suspicious of Luthor. None of which justify laying hands on him.

And no, Nuperman couldn't do that. Because that's not what a young brash Superman does.

And that brash cool Superman went away long before the sales dipped - it was more like pressure from fans to make him more like Dad Superman that led to his demise.

If you are going to insist that a young brash Superman doing something impulsive makes less sense than an older experienced Superman, then there's no sense in bothering to discuss, your logic makes no sense.