Superman Story In Truth & Justice #4

[Alpha]

I can't imagine Clark holding a position that hurts people.

Clark would feel that an electoral vote actually helps people. And the end of it would result in rural areas being even less taken care of, along with their own political positions in the minority.

[Jcogginsa]

Clark would feel that an electoral vote actually helps people. And the end of it would result in rural areas being even less taken care of, along with their own political positions in the minority.

No, he wouldn't. He would understand that it over represents low population areas at the expense of high population areas.

He would also understand that the majority of rural voters have been conned into voting against their own interests by the people who advocate for the EC.

[Gaius]

Given Clark lives and works out of a major city, which lose representation at the expense of rural/less-populated states due the EC, I can't see him supporting the EC either on the basis getting rid of it would hurt people's political representation.

[Alpha]

Like most GLs, I think whatever Clark may have thought on Earth (and depending on which era, the Kents may have instilled in him total belief in the traditional nuclear family), once he gets to space it's open season. I can't fathom Superman has seen hundreds of alien variations on the family construct and came back to Earth thinking "yeah, nothing here can be improved on and this is pretty much the best model." It may be the coziest and most familiar to him personally, but I think he'd return from Exile at least and have a more open mind to how people develop. Think of it like when a child leaves home to go to college and returns after a few years. They can be entirely different people. Hell, that happened to me. I had the most toxic beliefs when I was young and getting away from that environment, meeting new people and concepts and really diving deep and discovering what I believe was monumental for my development. As with all things, Clark's life reflects our own just on an exaggerated scale. Space was his college experience away from home. Once he gets back, he's going to be a different person and likely a much more open-minded one.

He's probably spent an afternoon trying to construct his pitch to sell the idea of letting children be raised by sentient dog gentlemen from Barkulon Galta V.

This makes a lot of sense. I never said this couldn't change through experience. But I don't think his bias would be as simple as arriving in Metropolis. He was never protesting marriage and adoption, just less certain of it being as strong and healthy as an heterosexual couple, and that the "institution of marriage" was a cultural element set in stone that he woud be uncomfortable with breaking. Doesn't mean he couldn't change with time, since I can't imagine him actually hating anyone, just being uncomfortable and I suppose discrimminatory in a passive manner.

[Alpha]

No, he wouldn't. He would understand that it over represents low population areas at the expense of high population areas.

He would also understand that the majority of rural voters have been conned into voting against their own interests by the people who advocate for the EC.

Ok nobody here is gonna agree with me so I'm gonna give up. I absolutely oppose the electoral college and I am a cisgendered heterosexual man who would be open to a bisexual relationship, and though I don't have much faith in marriage I see no reason for two people not to be allowed to make such a commitment if they so desire. But I have a totally different background from Clark, and I honestly think a few of my personal values just wouldn't make sense as something he would defend until later in his life. But this discussion has reached the point where arguing anymore than this becomes ridiculously insignificant, since we are all going around in circles and there aren't any new arguments being done on either side.

[Ascended]

Trying to pinpoint Clark's politics is always an exercise in futility; everybody always just projects onto him so if you're progressive you're gonna think he's a democrat, if you're conservative you're gonna think he's a republican. And nothing is gonna change anyone's mind, because if you disagree with Superman then you're probably wrong and people won't accept that about themselves these days.

It takes some disciplined literary analysis and a deep historical dive to even start getting close to knowing what Clark's politics on the page are (as opposed to what we *think* they are), and even then you're trying to hit a moving target because you're dealing with eighty years of history, thousands of issues, countless creators, and the dissonance between social norms now vs. social norms then, as well as the general ebb and flow of culture.

I took a bunch of writing courses in college, including a lit. class, and what I got out of it with Superman is that we disagree on several topics, agree on many others, and Clark's a guy who does not fit into any political party and agrees with both sides on certain topics to certain degrees but is overall (despite a few tangent eras that flipped the script) a leftist.

I can break it all down issue by issue and provide the on-print reasoning but it's not gonna change or inform any minds, I don't think, and changing minds isn't what I'd want to do anyway.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Oh cmon. The electoral college isn't a matter of intelligence. It's about fundamental difference in values. I'm sure Clark would oppose the system of electors, but the state by state basis is something he might very well support because it isn't something that can be argued through logic. One would have to believe the numerical value is more important than equal representation of different areas with different economic conditions.

Once again, I agree with you in actual life, but your argument for Clark's beliefs shouldn't (in my opinion) be that he is a "good" person and he would believe in "good" things, considering the fact that that criteria for those good beliefs is your own inherent values irregardless of his fictional background and experiences. I can't think of any experience he would go through that would convince him that the a state by state election (with proportional votes) would be wrong.

This isn't a matter of only wanting Clark to believe in "good" ideas. There have been multiple cases throughout his history wherein he's believed in some pretty horrible things. The Seigel & Shuster Superman had some pretty racist views towards Asians, for instance. The 1950s and 60s Superman of the Weisenger Era certainly had some big issues with women. The Byrne Superman was essentially a poster boy for Reaganism. There's plenty of occassions we can point to where Superman was expressing the "wrong" political opinions. However, the examples you've chosen, such as not supporting gay marriage in 2013 don't make any sense because that would have been the more overtly SJW Morrison Superman. And your other example of Clark supporting the electoral college in 2021 also makes no sense after Americans' faith in their electoral system has been eroded by having a President elected twice with less than a majority of the votes.

Again, if the argument for the electoral college isn't dumb, please send me a link, any link, from someone arguing its merits today who isn't shilling for the Republican Party.

I'll wait.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Clark would feel that an electoral vote actually helps people. And the end of it would result in rural areas being even less taken care of, along with their own political positions in the minority.

Dude, you are trying to argue for an idea that even you don’t believe makes sense, and then trying to show how this would be a belief held by a man who is generally defined by his moral compass. It’s like trying ice stake uphill in a hurricane.

I respect your moxie, but you’re digging in to a position that’s built upon sand.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

This makes a lot of sense. I never said this couldn't change through experience. But I don't think his bias would be as simple as arriving in Metropolis. He was never protesting marriage and adoption, just less certain of it being as strong and healthy as an heterosexual couple, and that the "institution of marriage" was a cultural element set in stone that he woud be uncomfortable with breaking. Doesn't mean he couldn't change with time, since I can't imagine him actually hating anyone, just being uncomfortable and I suppose discrimminatory in a passive manner.

I could maybe see teenage Clark thinking this way, but once he’s been to the future with the Legion, which would be wildly progressive in ways we can’t even fathom, and moved to a giant diverse city like Metropolis, the idea of Clark still being uncomfortable with something as unremarkable as the concept of a marriage that isn’t one man and one woman doesn’t make any sense.

However, again, if we’re talking about Post-Crisis Superman from the 80s and 90s? Absolutely. However, even that guy would likely come around after having one conversation with Maggie Sawyer about the issue.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Ok nobody here is gonna agree with me so I'm gonna give up. I absolutely oppose the electoral college and I am a cisgendered heterosexual man who would be open to a bisexual relationship, and though I don't have much faith in marriage I see no reason for two people not to be allowed to make such a commitment if they so desire. But I have a totally different background from Clark, and I honestly think a few of my personal values just wouldn't make sense as something he would defend until later in his life. But this discussion has reached the point where arguing anymore than this becomes ridiculously insignificant, since we are all going around in circles and there aren't any new arguments being done on either side.

Hey, I respect your valiant attempts to defend a pretty indefensible position. We’ve all been there, trust me. I actually argued that Heroes in Crisis was going to be a well-crafted murder mystery in which Wally West wouldn’t simply be a red herring. Boy, I sure shat the bed there. I look forward to the next time and maybe the shoe will be on the other foot this time and I will be attempting to argue that Superman needs to get back to playing high school football with completely outmatched teenagers again or something equally ludicrous.

[Alpha]

Fair enough. Have a jolly good time dear boys, girls, and all else

[manwhohaseverything]

i can't believe i missed this.Gosh! i am busy these days.seems good.

You literally described what Superbro was supposed to be. Goddamn I miss him or how Morrison did him. But yeah, Clark would slap pretty much anyone from both sides causing trouble.

labels don't matter for superman.

[HsssH]

This is turning into "I'm good person therefore Superman must have exact same views as me" thread.

[manwhohaseverything]

This is turning into "I'm good person therefore Superman must have exact same views as me" thread.

well,the character is a power fantasy.His basis was "He is gonna do what i do if i had powers of hugo danner(which basically me on steroids) and had personality of zorro" by siegel and shuster.Naturally,everybody latches a part of themselves onto him or version of him.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

This is turning into "I'm good person therefore Superman must have exact same views as me" thread.

Yes, that's why it's been repeatedly pointed out on this thread the times wherein Superman was clearly in the wrong politically throughout his history.

But, please don't let me stop you from contributing absolutely nothing to this discussion but your distain for those participating in it.