Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Rang10]

I’m very glad Jean is alive and I could not care less about the DPS, after the way marvel treated the concept of the phoenix this argument that Jean being back ruins some kind of sacred pillar of the x-men mythology is null an void!
Imagine keeping Jean dead to preserve the sanctity of the dps saga while scott is banging the very woman responsible for his girlfriend suicide meanwhile the PF and Jean’s legacy gets passed around to prop the latest writer’s pet character....... no thanks

You even forgot that Mastermind, her rapist, is back to life and being a lovely dad to his daughters. I messaged zeb Wells about this on twitter.
The whole DPS matter very little, specially how people misinterpret it.

people really believe that Jean would never come back to life? even Jason Todd came back to life, even if he was a lot less important to batman than Jean was to X-men. Magik was like 20 years dead and came back to life too

Be careful how you use the term raped, how was she being raped there is no evidence of that at all, or are you just using emotive words to get your point across? Mind controlled, yes, manipulated, yes, raped - no.

Dont worry fictional characters can't sue me. It was a 80s comic, but she and mastermind were living like husband and wife. At least we see she kissing him under his illusions, that is sexual assault

[Daedra]

Isn’t what you’re describing exactly what has happened? Although, Jean is responsible for her own suicide, isn’t she?

But that’s my point .......marvel tried to follow the “let’s keep Jean dead” dogma and it totally sucked.
Yes Jean killed herself to spare the universe of any further consequence after she was psychically abused by mastermind in collaboration with emma frost.

[Daedra]

You even forgot that Mastermind, her rapist, is back to life and being a lovely dad to his daughters. I messaged zeb Wells about this on twitter.
The whole DPS matter very little, specially how people misinterpret it.

people really believe that Jean would never come back to life? even Jason Todd came back to life, even if he was a lot less important to batman than Jean was to X-men. Magik was like 20 years dead and came back to life too



Dont worry fictional characters can't sue me. It was a 80s comic, but she and mastermind were living like husband and wife. At least we see she kissing him under his illusions, that is sexual assault

Not only that, he violated her very soul, grooming her latent darkest side into a full blown conscious manifestation all the while loosening her moral restraints and principles

[Fall-From-Grace]

They should have left Jean dead after #137. ThatÂ’s it. The end.

Maddie sucks. IÂ’m with the Simonsons on this. Claremont shouldnÂ’t have been allowed to create the Pryor character, one of the stupidest ever.

Byrne, on FF, and Layton, on X-Factor, never should have been allowed to resurrect Jean using BusiekÂ’s idea.

The Dark Phoenix Saga, as great as it is, really is problematic in how it treats Jean, but killing her off works as a big ending.

Resurrecting her endlessly, and everybody since, has really broken the X-Men and a lot of comics. I guess at the Marvel and DC IP factories, though, thatÂ’s just how it is.

I agree with what you're saying that ressurection feels like a cheap and overdone mechanism in comics, but at the same time, I don't think any comic superhero should be shelved forever due to a story. Comics are not like movies or books in that they operate as if they will never end . So if you think about it, its extremely cyclical and every story will be redone eventually, regardless of how great the retelling is . Which means that the big draw is not in a particular storyline itself, but in how the characters react to the story, and how they develop. Rogue for example will always go through cycles of '' I can't control my power!'' to '' Now I can touch others again'' but what is important is how she deals with the new development, what does this mean in that point in time for her character . So if we shelve Jean forever , we just rob her of a possible treasure trove of development in favor of plot and story, which is really not the strongest feature of comics, due to its cyclical nature . If the story will never end, why should one of its protagonists ( she is not Uncle Ben for example) be discarded forever? You get my point? Superhero comics are character driven and this is especially true of the X-Men.

Also, I feel like it's easier to say this if you're not really fond of a character. How would you feel if Marvel killed your favorites and said: Nope, they're gone and you won't ever read about them again ! ( we all know they backtrack on that but let's assume they really meant it this time , lol ) .

[Brian B]

But that’s my point .......marvel tried to follow the “let’s keep Jean dead” dogma and it totally sucked.
Yes Jean killed herself to spare the universe of any further consequence after she was psychically abused by mastermind in collaboration with emma frost.

No, Marvel did NOT try to keep Jean dead. It barely lasted two years before they introduced Pryor, which is when they started bringing Jean back. All the bad things and stories you describe are a result of them “resurrecting” Jean, as opposed to leaving her dead.

And yeah, they’ve brought Jason Todd and everyone back. I think it’s robbed the stories of their power to affect the reader, resulting in a bunch of crappy retreads and inferior sequels.

Also, I don’t think Emma and Mastermind forced her to commit suicide. They set up circumstances leading to it, and I “blame” those characters in that sense. But it wasn’t like they brainwashed her and told her to kill herself.

[otipep_90]

The subtext was there with Mastermind’s, they even had a wedding!

After being separated and believing the X-Men had died in the Savage Land, Jean took a vacation in the Greek Isles to emotionally heal, and fell victim to Mastermind. They had a fling for over a week. Similar to the Purple Man/ Jessica Jones situation.

[Daedra]

No, Marvel did NOT try to keep Jean dead. It barely lasted two years before they introduced Pryor, which is when they started bringing Jean back. All the bad things and stories you describe are a result of them “resurrecting” Jean, as opposed to leaving her dead.

And yeah, they’ve brought Jason Todd and everyone back. I think it’s robbed the stories of their power to affect the reader, resulting in a bunch of crappy retreads and inferior sequels.

Also, I don’t think Emma and Mastermind forced her to commit suicide. They set up circumstances leading to it, and I “blame” those characters in that sense. But it wasn’t like they brainwashed her and told her to kill herself.

Then they killed her again for almost 15 years..... jean being alive did not ruin anything, her death in the long run just robbed us of a beloved character

[Daedra]

The subtext was there with Mastermind’s, they even had a wedding!

Also let’s not forget Mesmero had a hand in manipulating Jean as Claremont wrote in a Classic X-Men backup story. After being separated and believing the X-Men had died in the Savage Land, she took a vacation in the Greek Isles to emotionally heal, and fell victim to Mesmero’s psychic powers. They had a fling for over a week, and never learned it was the green bastard. If I remember correctly, he pull a similar stunt with Marrow during her time in Weapon X. Similar to the Purple Man/ Jessica Jones situation.

It was mastermind even in Greece

[Devaishwarya]

But..but...think of US Jean fans!

Jokes aside...
I loved what Claremont did with introducing Maddie...pure, unadulterated 80's night-time soap opera there.
I loved what Weezie did with Jean in X-Factor.
I loved what they both did with Both Jean and Maddie in Inferno.

Those were the best of times indeed...and I can never look back a denounce them as "problematic". (I'll never be that "woke" or "fragile and sensitive")

[Brian B]

Then they killed her again for almost 15 years..... jean being alive did not ruin anything, her death in the long run just robbed us of a beloved character

It was too late by then. If they left her dead in #137, it would have been for the best. You will never convince me otherwise.

I’m also none too happy that Hickman brought Thunderbird back. Hopefully, he doesn’t stick around. He’s been much more effective as a ghost, literal and figurative in the X world, than as a resurrected or even alive character. That character’s only meaning was in its death.

[Daedra]

It was too late by then. If they left her dead in #137, it would have been for the best. You will never convince me otherwise.

I don’t have to convince you of anything, this is the Jean Grey appreciation thread and She’s alive and well

[Rang10]

It was mastermind even in Greece

He really groomed her to the very beggining, it was a long term plan. I think that it helps to understand why she was manipulated by him, she didn't even noticed it. the geginning becaue it was subtitle.

Not only that, he violated her very soul, grooming her latent darkest side into a full blown conscious manifestation all the while loosening her moral restraints and principles

it was a total break and destruction of her character, only a strong woman like Jean could survive it

[Harpsikord]

Jean never should've died in the first place. Jean never should've went dark in the first place, and if you think otherwise you're a misogynist - just like John Byrne when he suggested it.

[otipep_90]

It was mastermind even in Greece

You are right, it was Jason in Greece. The grooming was long term and vicious.

I confused the Mesmero back story in Classic X-Men #17. Mesmero didn’t rape Jean, but not for a lack trying.


See link for summary:
http://https://clarmindcontrol.blogs...-control.html?

[otipep_90]

It’s ridiculous that The Dark Phoenix Saga has become such a precedent for all Phoenix Hosts scumming to their darker urges, when clearly she Jean had been groomed to become Dark Phoenix. This reminds me of Byrne’s interpolation. Them at the Phoenix Firce was malevolent spirit, when it was Mastermind all along! The Phoenix Force works better as a Cosmic Abstract, not a manipulative entity.

Goes to show how many writers have not understood the mechanics of Claremont’s story.