Yeah, but if you... man, we're getting into weird analogy territory, like if you disintegrated Superman's arms he wouldn't be able to go "fool! Little did you know that my arms and I are one and can be remade from me!" and will his arms back into being from pure nothingness. - Pendaran
Arx Inosaan
Yeah, but if you... man, we're getting into weird analogy territory, like if you disintegrated Superman's arms he wouldn't be able to go "fool! Little did you know that my arms and I are one and can be remade from me!" and will his arms back into being from pure nothingness. - Pendaran
Arx Inosaan
Is Thanos supposed to be above many other Marvel characters in Strength? I know it was said that he once fought off both the Thing and Thor simultaneously for an extended period of time. Where would he fit in the range?
What about Count Nefaria? He was supposed to have Power Man's strength, bought up to Cl 100 and multiplied 100 times when he first faced the Avengers. Would this put Nefaria at the top of the list?
Kurse was said to be 4-5 times stronger than Thor. How does he compare with the others?
Of course there's also the idea that Surfer asking his board to work with him is just his melodramatic equivalent of saying something like "feet don't fail me now!"
You're hair and your toenails are part of you, but you don't really feel pain when they're cut.
Yeah the Bosrd is a part of Surfer. It’s like a Foci or Pact device that Surfer treats as part of himself ( Yeah D&D nerd me considers Norton a Warlock, Galactus is his patron.)
So, I originally said:
I don't believe the Hulk has limitless strength, and I feel the same way about the Surfer.
I'm on the fence I suppose about WW Hulk vs Sentry fight as to a legitimate performance by Hulk. You're right, that was a post warp core performance, but previously, in Sentry's 2005 mini, the Sentry casually puts up one hand against Terrax and literally freezes the guy mid swing. Like...no effort whatsoever. Now was Terrax delivering a planet busting strike against Sentry? The context would indicate no, since IIRC, he was there to claim earth as his own. On the other hand, WW Hulk was technically not at planet busting levels yet either when he faced Sentry in WW Hulk, since a feat for busting a planet didn't come from him until Heart of the Monster. Also, the Sentry's alter ego effortlessly broke every bone in Hulk's body, although, definitely a pre-warp core showing. It should also be noted that the driving force behind WW Hulk's display of strength in World War Hulk was his (wait for it, wait for it....), he was the angriest he has been up to that point in time. While I have seen the warp core explosion cited as legit reasons for Hulk performances post Planet Hulk, I've always been of the mind Hulk's greatest asset is still how his level of anger impacts his strength and not the warp core explosion.
As far as Hercules, Hulk slapped Hercules around along with Namor, Iron Man and Wonder Man in way back in IH 315, so the Hercules comparison I'm not sold on.
Again, there's a basis for my drawing that conclusion. Slade has literally no "stand alone" feats of FTL reaction/combat feats. Nor has he ever been categorized that way. Wally West on the other hand? God of Speed Wally West?
Need I say more?
For the record, I don't think the Surfer was "powered up" in Annihilation so much as whatever "inhibitors" Galactus placed on Norrin way back in FF 50 were removed by Galactus in Annihilation. He was "forgiven" and was able to realize his full potential is how I read the conversation between Galactus and Norrin in Annihilation. It should also be noted that Surfer was able to match Thanos' energy signature in Annihilation to unlock Galactus from being a cosmic level battery. Not saying he's as strong, but there are legit reasons to believe Norrin's base level of strength? Might be a stretch higher than it was previously.
That's not what I'm saying. Norrin definitely has his limits. I'm saying his base level of power is greater than it was before. I don't think the Surfer was ever a planet buster strength wise before Annihilation. The things that happened in Annihilation (like slapping Ravenous around who in the same story, was previously his equal), the energy signature thing...and the subsequent beat down of Bill, leads me to believe that if the Surfer amps himself, he may well be a "head taller" than BRB in strength.
Just my take.
Mmm, yeah but I actually thing Wally West could've legit knocked out post Crisis Superman, so. And no, I never thought Wally West's punches actually had the impact of a white dwarf star.
But I'm not pushing that. I'm saying Norrin's top end post Annihilation exceeds anything he did prior as a show of strength.
Yeah, but Thanos legit beat Surfer to death, and he has physically engaged Tyrant, the same guy that took on several heralds, Jack of Hearts and Gladiator...and mopped the floor with all of them. So, no...I would have a hard time buying it if a writer had Surfer knock out Thanos by punching him. Post Annihilation, my guess is Thanos ("I'm advancing against Gungnir on a day Odin one shots Drax and the Surfer") still kicks Surfer's ass in raw brute strength.
This point, I can see, sure. Maybe I'm leaping too much.
tbcont
"Sir, does this mean that Ann Margret's not coming?"
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"One of the maddening but beautiful things about comics is that you have to give characters a sense of change without changing them so much that they violate the essence of who they are." ~ Ann Nocenti, Chris Claremont's X-Men.
I'm not the most articulate individual, so believe when I say I'm not advancing this idea. Where's the cut-off? Somewhere over Beta Ray Bill, a legit planet buster.
So where do you place the Surfer strength wise pre Annihilation? Because to me, the guy was a legit class 100 before Annihilation. And honestly, if we are evaluating showings of strength post Annihilation, and given it's clear the guy was amping himself, how many physical confrontations with other class 100s does Norrin have, aside from in Fraction's Thor?
But again, I don't recall Black Adam having a power up of some sort like the Surfer did in Annihilation do you?
Okay, yeah. I forgot that.
Well, not the best of comparisons maybe? I don't remember the avoiding of radio waves thing with J'onn, which in turn would suggest FTL reflexes....which I don't believe MM has. And white Martians legitimately on a par with Wally West? Not really. I mean, the narration in Morrison's JLA was the white Martians where somewhere around Superman level.
I see where you're coming from, but none of the instances you cite factor in a power up of some sort from a guy who I think everyone already believed was somewhere in the class 100 range.
"Sir, does this mean that Ann Margret's not coming?"
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"One of the maddening but beautiful things about comics is that you have to give characters a sense of change without changing them so much that they violate the essence of who they are." ~ Ann Nocenti, Chris Claremont's X-Men.
As to the OP
So, are we now saying (Rebirth) Superman is a bonafide planet buster? That's the feel I get. Honestly, I need to catch up, but from the sounds of it...pretty much yeah?
So, Rebirth Clark being "100"....
So, I would say...
Classic Thor - 50 (isn't there evidence that Mjolnir adds significantly to Thor's striking power?)
Gladiator - 100
Silver Surfer - no amp? 50 I suppose. Amp? If Rumbles feels the amping against Bill was legit...100.
Thanos - 125
IDK, I'm sure I'm forgetting feats...
"Sir, does this mean that Ann Margret's not coming?"
----------------------
"One of the maddening but beautiful things about comics is that you have to give characters a sense of change without changing them so much that they violate the essence of who they are." ~ Ann Nocenti, Chris Claremont's X-Men.
It's a metaphorical reference ("one"). The Surfer telepathically directs the board. It's like having another set of legs is the reference.
Well, the board can do that, because like Mjolnir, it isn't physically attached. Nevertheless, the Surfer moves around on his telepathically controlled board like he was moving around on his feat.
What about Colossus? Should he be slapping him around? Or Iron Man (is he still class 100 in his armor?)? How about his showing against Firelord in SS 146. The same Firelord who needed to be taken down by Thor and Hercules in Thor 225 (I think?).
"Sir, does this mean that Ann Margret's not coming?"
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"One of the maddening but beautiful things about comics is that you have to give characters a sense of change without changing them so much that they violate the essence of who they are." ~ Ann Nocenti, Chris Claremont's X-Men.
Very much so, yeah. From what I hear his feats are getting pretty silly again. Into sorta mid-tier PC Supes nonsense in some cases. Not the very tip-toppermost PC ridiculousness, but pretty up there.
Striking power, yes. Strength, not so much (if we ignore the Aaron-nerfing, where Thor became the equivalent of Drunk Hobo Zuras. Or possibly TNG Worf, depending on your perspective.
Otherwise I’d probably go slightly higher than 50. Maybe an 80?
Given how batshit (or should it be supershit?) Supes is now, I’d probably drop Glads slightly to 90-95.
I feel like we’re in the 70 category, but YMMV.
In pure strength, I probably wouldn’t put Thanos above Rebirth Supes, so I’d just go 100. It’s just that Thanos’ durability and esoterica mean he’d go over Supes in a fight.
When Surfer has charges of energy around his fists to the point that it's rolling off of them into space, that's not a pure strength showing.Silver Surfer - no amp? 50 I suppose. Amp? If Rumbles feels the amping against Bill was legit...100.
Okayyy... and now, because there's some increasingly tortured reasoning going on in this thread, I am going to summon up the energy for debunking time, come on grab your friends, we'll go to very, clarified lands.
First, The Beta Ray Bill Thing:
People seem to keep glossing over both the whole energy fists thing, and, more importantly, that we do not in fact actually see all of the fight. Yes, the Surfer was clearly dominating it by both presentation and the things we saw. Yes, Bill ended said fight in a heap at the Surfer's feet such that he's even let go of the hammer. But we have no real idea of how many hits that took. There is a point where it cuts away, and then we cut back to the ending. Bill was also shown capable of hurting the Surfer and knocking him about during what we saw of said exchange before the more one sided beating started happening (and to be fair to Bill it included the Surfer conking Bill in the back of the head with his board as one of his moves). More importantly, while down to the point that the Surfer was telling him not to get up, Bill was in fact capable of getting up under his own power once the fighting was over. He was still conscious. And, while we're there, Bill was at the end of it outright wreathed in energy rolling off of him as far as the effects of the beating he had inflicted on him. To say that what was going on was purely physical strength is thus at that point... a choice.
So, is this a good showing for the Surfer? Definitely you bet. Do I think it's a valid showing? Sure, why not?
Does it justify putting him strength wise anywhere near, say, Rebirth Supes or Thanos in terms of pure physical strength? Haaaah no.
So, this whole mess of paragraphs including things like "well maybe that showing on the Sentry was valid!" and etc? It has no foundation in the first place. I'll tackle that whole structure of not well supported ideas anyway, but one of its supposed linchpins does not at all hold up in the way it is being spoken of.
Last edited by Pendaran; 07-11-2020 at 03:42 AM.