Style > Substance: YOUNG AVENGERS Appreciation

[Raye]

If you use Anole, you MUST use Rockslide, who could take over the 'tank' role from Teddy. but yeah, those 3 graduating seems the most logical to me.

[Kevinroc]

The idea of the Young Avengers "graduating" is the worst idea I've ever heard. That NEVER turns out well.

Just look at the Teen Titans over at DC. Sure, Dick Grayson stuck around, but Donna Troy was shipped off to... where the hell is Donna?

Wally West "graduated," and then his predecessor came back and Wally also left. (Yes, I know Wally has been revamped since the reboot. But he's nowhere near as prominent as he once was.)

It would stick the Young Avengers in this weird place because there's no way that Billy will replace Wanda in an Avengers line-up. (Especially with Wanda about to make her movie debut.)

If you try to squeeze them up, you end up squeezing them out. Look at the New Warriors. Those characters are in a bad spot. The YA would essentially be put in that position, with a younger generation of heroes usurping their place, and the older heroes not going anywhere.

[JaggedFel]

Pretty much there is no way to graduate u get stuck in the dead zone. I mean look at the X-men last person to move up to a main team is Magik...everyone else is kinda stuck. Kate is not replacing Clint, Wiccan is not replacing Wanda, etc. Ideally u need a unique skillset or a writer to push you. Magik has a skillset most x-men dont have ie magic. Cannonball tries to escape gets knocked down, Monet and Jubilee kinda fade in and out. I guess u could say X-23 did but she is a Wolverine Expy which is a rather special case.

The problem is graduation is impossible because the universe never ages and so the old guard heroes will always block the way... and if they die they or get depowered they will comeback eventually knocking the freshly promoted sidekick backdown.

[Raye]

Just because it's been handled poorly in the past doesn't mean that's the ONLY way it can work out. The problem with Donna and Wally is that they are legacy characters to a much larger extent, especially Wally. If someone wanted to use Barry, then Wally had to go or be demoted and downplayed. That is not the case here, Kate aside (and she is doing allright for herself in Fraction's Hawkeye, anyway). While some started out modelling themselves after other heroes, in general they are more analogous to Dick Grayson, in that they ended up becoming their own thing. They are not trying to replace Scarlet Witch or the Hulk or anything, so all of them can exist simultaneously fairly comfortably. (though, a couple may need a name change, but that's not a big deal). I mean, it's not like they will end up seeing LESS panel time, since they are pretty much restricted to the occasional limited series anyway. And if it doesn't work out, they can go back to that. My main thought here was Kitty Pryde, she started out as a young teenager and now she's all grown up, and everything worked out fine. The reason some characters kinda fade away from team books is simply because they don't have the fanbase required to drive demand to see them, I don't think that's the case here.

And the universe doesn't NEVER age, it just ages very slowly (possible exception of Franklin aside). The last season of the book made it pretty clear that many of them are adults now, or at least on the cusp of adulthood

[Kieran_Frost]

Just because it's been handled poorly in the past doesn't mean that's the ONLY way it can work out. The problem with Donna and Wally is that they are legacy characters to a much larger extent, especially Wally. If someone wanted to use Barry, then Wally had to go or be demoted and downplayed. That is not the case here, Kate aside (and she is doing allright for herself in Fraction's Hawkeye, anyway). While some started out modelling themselves after other heroes, in general they are more analogous to Dick Grayson, in that they ended up becoming their own thing. They are not trying to replace Scarlet Witch or the Hulk or anything, so all of them can exist simultaneously fairly comfortably. (though, a couple may need a name change, but that's not a big deal). I mean, it's not like they will end up seeing LESS panel time, since they are pretty much restricted to the occasional limited series anyway. And if it doesn't work out, they can go back to that. My main thought here was Kitty Pryde, she started out as a young teenager and now she's all grown up, and everything worked out fine. The reason some characters kinda fade away from team books is simply because they don't have the fanbase required to drive demand to see them, I don't think that's the case here.

And the universe doesn't NEVER age, it just ages very slowly (possible exception of Franklin aside). The last season of the book made it pretty clear that many of them are adults now, or at least on the cusp of adulthood

I agree: it hasn't worked before but it could work. I don't want them gone from the team, but ALSO appear as Avengers (plenty of teams have young heroes). It would help boost their profiles and the YA profiles, while also keeping them where they below (as YA goodness).

[mugiwara]

Pretty much there is no way to graduate u get stuck in the dead zone. I mean look at the X-men last person to move up to a main team is Magik...everyone else is kinda stuck. Kate is not replacing Clint, Wiccan is not replacing Wanda, etc. Ideally u need a unique skillset or a writer to push you. Magik has a skillset most x-men dont have ie magic. Cannonball tries to escape gets knocked down, Monet and Jubilee kinda fade in and out. I guess u could say X-23 did but she is a Wolverine Expy which is a rather special case.

The problem is graduation is impossible because the universe never ages and so the old guard heroes will always block the way... and if they die they or get depowered they will comeback eventually knocking the freshly promoted sidekick backdown.

Sad, but true.
Case in point: Children's Crusade: bring back Scarlet Witch and Ant Man II, kill Stature and Vision III.

[CMain453]

Just because it's been handled poorly in the past doesn't mean that's the ONLY way it can work out. The problem with Donna and Wally is that they are legacy characters to a much larger extent, especially Wally. If someone wanted to use Barry, then Wally had to go or be demoted and downplayed. That is not the case here, Kate aside (and she is doing allright for herself in Fraction's Hawkeye, anyway). While some started out modelling themselves after other heroes, in general they are more analogous to Dick Grayson, in that they ended up becoming their own thing. They are not trying to replace Scarlet Witch or the Hulk or anything, so all of them can exist simultaneously fairly comfortably. (though, a couple may need a name change, but that's not a big deal). I mean, it's not like they will end up seeing LESS panel time, since they are pretty much restricted to the occasional limited series anyway. And if it doesn't work out, they can go back to that. My main thought here was Kitty Pryde, she started out as a young teenager and now she's all grown up, and everything worked out fine. The reason some characters kinda fade away from team books is simply because they don't have the fanbase required to drive demand to see them, I don't think that's the case here.

And the universe doesn't NEVER age, it just ages very slowly (possible exception of Franklin aside). The last season of the book made it pretty clear that many of them are adults now, or at least on the cusp of adulthood

I think it could work, and it would be really refreshing to see some of the teen heroes become full members, which hasn't happened in the marvel universe for a while. I mean, most of the x-kids have stayed as x-kids for a long time and then just sort of fizzled out or died

[Kevinroc]

Just because it's been handled poorly in the past doesn't mean that's the ONLY way it can work out. The problem with Donna and Wally is that they are legacy characters to a much larger extent, especially Wally. If someone wanted to use Barry, then Wally had to go or be demoted and downplayed. That is not the case here, Kate aside (and she is doing allright for herself in Fraction's Hawkeye, anyway). While some started out modelling themselves after other heroes, in general they are more analogous to Dick Grayson, in that they ended up becoming their own thing. They are not trying to replace Scarlet Witch or the Hulk or anything, so all of them can exist simultaneously fairly comfortably. (though, a couple may need a name change, but that's not a big deal). I mean, it's not like they will end up seeing LESS panel time, since they are pretty much restricted to the occasional limited series anyway. And if it doesn't work out, they can go back to that. My main thought here was Kitty Pryde, she started out as a young teenager and now she's all grown up, and everything worked out fine. The reason some characters kinda fade away from team books is simply because they don't have the fanbase required to drive demand to see them, I don't think that's the case here.

And the universe doesn't NEVER age, it just ages very slowly (possible exception of Franklin aside). The last season of the book made it pretty clear that many of them are adults now, or at least on the cusp of adulthood

Kitty Pryde is one of the few exceptions. Look at how Justice was an Avenger, before being put back on the New Warriors (whose last ongoing was cancelled in 12 issues).

What's going to happen to Kate once Fraction is off Hawkeye? Will she just fade into the background, before being tossed aside as C-list fodder?

Why would an Avengers writer want to make Billy a priority when Wanda is around? Wanda is also making her big screen debut. Billy isn't in a movie.

Hulkling is genetically the son of Captain Mar-Vell, but he doesn't cash in on that legacy. He's tied to the Hulk, who has quite a number of related characters running around already.

Patriot is practically non-existent. You would think he was one of the members killed off.

It says a lot that the most prominent original Young Avenger post-Heinberg in the greater Marvel Universe is Iron Lad. (Of course, Loki is in a ranking all his own but he's not an original YA.)

[Fokken]

I am in ZERO hurry to see the Young Avengers ascend to "adult" status.
I do not see them as replacements for the heroes they'd previously mirrored so I have no desire to see them replace anyone.
I see them as legit, individual, unique heroes that have ties/connections to previous Avengers.

I don't follow that DC mentality of legacy heroes.
And I am pleased as punch that Gillen really hammered that message home -- regarding legacies.
Wanting to BE Avengers? I'm all for it.
Wanting to BE their predecessors? Pass. HARD pass. Each of them should, could, and do stand on their own currently -- and I prefer it.

That being said, I still prefer them as they are: Young Avengers.

[Kieran_Frost]

Over 75 Votes CAST!!!

1st. WICCAN [William 'Billy' Kaplan] (16 votes)
TIED 2nd. HAWKEYE [Kate Bishop] & PATRIOT [Elijah 'Eli' Bradley] (13 votes)
3rd. MISS AMERICA CHAVEZ (10 votes)

Some surprises. Patriot's sudden climb surprises me. Iron Lad FINALLY getting a vote. Very happy seeing MAC doing so well.

It says a lot that the most prominent original Young Avenger post-Heinberg in the greater Marvel Universe is Iron Lad. (Of course, Loki is in a ranking all his own but he's not an original YA.)

Errrr... huh? WHAT? Am I missing a comic, when has Iron Lad had a greater presence in the MU (or do you mean Kang himself?).

[Tiamatty]

Over 75 Votes CAST!!!

1st. WICCAN [William 'Billy' Kaplan] (16 votes)
TIED 2nd. HAWKEYE [Kate Bishop] & PATRIOT [Elijah 'Eli' Bradley] (13 votes)
3rd. MISS AMERICA CHAVEZ (10 votes)

Some surprises. Patriot's sudden climb surprises me. Iron Lad FINALLY getting a vote. Very happy seeing MAC doing so well.




Errrr... huh? WHAT? Am I missing a comic, when has Iron Lad had a greater presence in the MU (or do you mean Kang himself?).

He was in Fraction's FF run, and he just showed up in Avengers #34.

[Raye]

Kitty Pryde is one of the few exceptions. Look at how Justice was an Avenger, before being put back on the New Warriors (whose last ongoing was cancelled in 12 issues).

What's going to happen to Kate once Fraction is off Hawkeye? Will she just fade into the background, before being tossed aside as C-list fodder?

Why would an Avengers writer want to make Billy a priority when Wanda is around? Wanda is also making her big screen debut. Billy isn't in a movie.

Hulkling is genetically the son of Captain Mar-Vell, but he doesn't cash in on that legacy. He's tied to the Hulk, who has quite a number of related characters running around already.

Patriot is practically non-existent. You would think he was one of the members killed off.

It says a lot that the most prominent original Young Avenger post-Heinberg in the greater Marvel Universe is Iron Lad. (Of course, Loki is in a ranking all his own but he's not an original YA.)

There are multiple Avengers squads, there are more than enough character spots between them to separate problematic pairings. Especially if there is a big shakeup after Axis and/or Hickman's incursion thing. If Billy and Wanda were on the same team (first of all, that could actually be interesting because of the strange parental thing going on there, but... ignoring that.) yeah he may take a back seat, same with Kate and Clint in a team setting, but if on a team like Mighty Avengers, or something, which is a lot of lower tier characters to begin with, they could shine.

As for Teddy, I think he needs to change his codename, be his own thing. He is not connected to the Hulk in any way aside from the codename, anyway. Ditching the Hulkling codename for something else can help him stand on his own.

I get that a lot of teen characters fade into obscurity after their creator leaves a book, or the book is cancelled, or whatever, but that's usually just because they don't have enough of a fan following or interest from creators in using them, and I mean, not every character can be an A lister, it's just the way of things. But the YA characters have a significant advantage in that regard, they have a MUCH larger fanbase than most of the forgotten teen characters had, and i think it's kind of a defeatist attitude to not even let them have a chance to try and get a foothold beyond Young Avengers. Especially since it wouldn't be hard to have them go back if it didn't work out.

[Fokken]

Alrighty.

Teddy Altman.
The Hero formerly known as Hulkling.

What could he change his name to?

Some ideas specific to his shape changing abilities:
Hybrid
Shifter
Alter
Switch

Specific to his incredible strength:
Flex
Brute
Brawn

[Trident]

The idea of the Young Avengers "graduating" is the worst idea I've ever heard. That NEVER turns out well.

Just look at the Teen Titans over at DC. Sure, Dick Grayson stuck around, but Donna Troy was shipped off to... where the hell is Donna?

Wally West "graduated," and then his predecessor came back and Wally also left. (Yes, I know Wally has been revamped since the reboot. But he's nowhere near as prominent as he once was.)

It would stick the Young Avengers in this weird place because there's no way that Billy will replace Wanda in an Avengers line-up. (Especially with Wanda about to make her movie debut.)

If you try to squeeze them up, you end up squeezing them out. Look at the New Warriors. Those characters are in a bad spot. The YA would essentially be put in that position, with a younger generation of heroes usurping their place, and the older heroes not going anywhere.

I Agree.

The only way it could ideally work is if they grow up in future/alternate reality comic. Which could be a benefit for those fans who really enjoy teen characters.

[Raye]

Alrighty.

Teddy Altman.
The Hero formerly known as Hulkling.

What could he change his name to?

Some ideas specific to his shape changing abilities:
Hybrid
Shifter
Alter
Switch

Specific to his incredible strength:
Flex
Brute
Brawn

Of those, I think I like Flex the best, it kind of reflects both aspects in a way. I also like Alter

I Agree.

The only way it could ideally work is if they grow up in future/alternate reality comic. Which could be a benefit for those fans who really enjoy teen characters.

but... they are already grown up. Some of them, anyway. No one here was suggesting graduating the entire team, just a few of the oldest ones. Teddy, Billy and Kate. In the last series, it was made pretty clear that Kate is already 21, Billy and Teddy are not far behind., so you don't need to do some kind of alternate future or anything. Why should they be stuck on a kid team forever even though they are no longer kids? (as an aside, this is why I get annoyed when people refer to the current Loki as 'teen Loki' Gillen said he aged up to be the same age as Kate... He's not a teen, he's early 20's. or the Asgardian equivalent of, anyway.)