Countdown for Krakoa's downfall

[Lucyinthesky]

High Evolutionary stopped with Magneto, who specifically noted the method to restore his powers was super risky and wouldn't work with anyone else.

Yes but he did try to help and that was the point I wanted to make of course he wasn´t successful but he tried.

Phoenix in AvX was the result of tie-ins telling a different story from themselves and other tie-ins. Just look at both Civil Wars.

Sorry but I don´t see why this matters, all events have tie ins by different authors but there´s always a main storyline telling the story and that´s what I am talking about, I usually don´t put much attention to tie-ins unless they are about characters I enjoy and they are written well.

About mutants;Well Stan lee did say that mutants were born in part because they wanted to explain quickly their super-powers so then they could go on into developing their reasons for being a villain or an hero, it was with Claremont when the X-men later became a minority symbol and the X-men went from " the most strange super heroes" to "People who defend a world that fears and hates them" which has been at the heart of the X-men since that time. I guess Hickman could do a lot more showing that other side of the X-men, the one who sacrifices everything despite knowing they are going to be hated despite that, but after decimation I guess it makes narrative sense for the X-men to tackle first the situation of mutants who can´t defend themselves while also going on with their mission of defending a world that fears and hates them, that´s why I liked Fallen Angels because it was exactly about that.

[Tycon]

Honestly, the very idea that the Phoenix was coming to restore mutants is as compltley out of left field as anything else in the story.

Not really. We know Hope, despite not being biologically related, looks just like Jean, was born after M-Day, and was hinted at to have a connection with the Phoenix. It doesn’t seem like too big of a stretch to see why Phoenix came back with the intention of restarting the X-Gene (thru Hope).

[Metal Sphere]

So the mutants should just let themselves be killed and also let Krakoa end just because a world without them is more interesting? ok to each otheir own I guess.

Tbh I don´t see why fans who obviously don´t enjoy X-men and neither are fans of them waste their time in a forum dedicated to X-men stories. If you don´t enjoy the story just read what you do enjoy and go on, as simple as that imo.

This old horse continues to be trotted out the moment someone pulls back from the trough and starts critically discussing the product. I am enjoying the new status quo. That doesn't mean my mind turns off and I cheer anything that's on the page.

But well one thing I can honestly say this new status quo brought back was the fact that X-men stories are not just about survival anymore, I can´t wait to read the X of Spades crossover, who has an origin in the Excalibur book which is about magic, on the X-men title we are about to have a confrontation between the Shiar, brood and the X-men and the EMPYRE tie in that´s going to be in Genosha and Magik is activelly working with Dr Strange in Savage Avengers agaist Kulan Gath, in Wolverine you have the Vampire nation who´s also fighting the Avengers so yes, this time is allowing for different kind of X-men stories.

That's actually one of my favorite things about Hickman's status quo change, he somehow got one of the most cloistered and incestuous corners of the Marvel Universe to start mingling with everything else. We appear to have the damn Knights of Galador from ROM coming in, for goodness' sake. That is awesome as hell. I was worried it would end with Batroc showing up in Marauders, but as time as gone on we've seen more and more. I hope Hickman's run ends with the ridiculous hate & fear that led to the survival era end so this type of dynamic continues.

[Lucyinthesky]

This old horse continues to be trotted out the moment someone pulls back from the trough and starts critically discussing the product. I am enjoying the new status quo. That doesn't mean my mind turns off and I cheer anything that's on the page.

Then I can agree with you on this because I also don´t cheer everything about this run.

That's actually one of my favorite things about Hickman's status quo change, he somehow got one of the most cloistered and incestuous corners of the Marvel Universe to start mingling with everything else. We appear to have the damn Knights of Galador from ROM coming in, for goodness' sake. That is awesome as hell. I was worried it would end with Batroc showing up in Marauders, but as time as gone on we've seen more and more. I hope Hickman's run ends with the ridiculous hate & fear that led to the survival era end so this type of dynamic continues.

Yes me too I always like it when the X-men mingle with different groups and super-teams just like in the old times, even more so If we can get good writting for all the characters involved that´s a bonus for me, I don´t mind fights between super heroes as long as they make sense inside the story and those are run by their character motives and don´t felt forced just to make an event, that´s why I liked the original Civil War story, at the beggining at least. It made sense for Iron Man to support the legislation because he has years of being openly a super-hero while Cap America thought it was a bad idea for the heroes that don´t have the same reasources Tony always had, for example Spider-Man. You can make a good hero vs hero conflict without forcing their motives or make them all act like children, that´s mostly what I could not stand from the AvX crossover.

I don´t think "the defend a world that hates and fears them" motive will dissapear entirely, not even in real life this happens tbh, but imo Hickman can turn off the intensity of it so there´s space for more traditional X-men super-hero stories.

[Killerbee911]

I don´t think "the defend a world that hates and fears them" motive will dissapear entirely, not even in real life this happens tbh, but imo Hickman can turn off the intensity of it so there´s space for more traditional X-men super-hero stories.

"Them" in the world hates and fear them doesn't have to be the X-men themselves. The easy example of something like this Barack Obama who was clearly one of the most loved presidents but he was clearly hated as well. The X-men themselves don't need to be complete focal point of the all the issues mutantdom. The X-men reflected reality more when they had the Morlocks(lower class mutants), Genoshans(working class mutants),Hellfire Club(upper class mutants),etc and the X-men themselves who are mixture of all them. When they blanket treat mutants as all the same thing inevitable we will reach these extinction situations or mutants having to pick being a mutants over being a humans.

The X-men works best imo when mutantkind treats X-men the way fans treat Avengers. It is far more interesting book if a Geonshan is asking Emma Frost "where were you when they burned our young", It is far more interesting book if X-men are protecting hate rally away from other mutants than Avengers. It is more interesting when the X-men can be loved and honored in parade for saving the world, Go out later to party,They have trouble getting into club and Jean Grey can read the minds of people understand that some of them still hate them. Writers need to learn that you shouldn't place the X-men in position where they have to pick between being mutant/protecting mutants and protecting humans because everytime logical position will be mutants. The X-men themselves don't directly have go through the stuff for the book to be about hate and fear of mutants.

[Metal Sphere]

Then I can agree with you on this because I also don´t cheer everything about this run.



Yes me too I always like it when the X-men mingle with different groups and super-teams just like in the old times, even more so If we can get good writting for all the characters involved that´s a bonus for me, I don´t mind fights between super heroes as long as they make sense inside the story and those are run by their character motives and don´t felt forced just to make an event, that´s why I liked the original Civil War story, at the beggining at least. It made sense for Iron Man to support the legislation because he has years of being openly a super-hero while Cap America thought it was a bad idea for the heroes that don´t have the same reasources Tony always had, for example Spider-Man. You can make a good hero vs hero conflict without forcing their motives or make them all act like children, that´s mostly what I could not stand from the AvX crossover.

I don´t think "the defend a world that hates and fears them" motive will dissapear entirely, not even in real life this happens tbh, but imo Hickman can turn off the intensity of it so there´s space for more traditional X-men super-hero stories.

Yeah, that what rubs me the wrong way about events. Civil War was so promising, its premise was so good and they pissed it away. It's part of the reason I'm always afraid Marvel will ruin brilliant things, though thankfully it seems like they let Hickman do what he wants when he's on a franchise. I overwhelmingly agree that they'll keep the 'hated and feared' thing as it's their brand, but you said it best: The absurd, ridiculous intensity of it since the 'survival' era began has led to one of the worst decades of X-books. Krakoa as it exists may crumble to nothing, but the franchise is poised to enter a significantly better era.

The X-men works best imo when mutantkind treats X-men the way fans treat Avengers. It is far more interesting book if a Geonshan is asking Emma Frost "where were you when they burned our young", It is far more interesting book if X-men are protecting hate rally away from other mutants than Avengers. It is more interesting when the X-men can be loved and honored in parade for saving the world, Go out later to party,They have trouble getting into club and Jean Grey can read the minds of people understand that some of them still hate them. Writers need to learn that you shouldn't place the X-men in position where they have to pick between being mutant/protecting mutants and protecting humans because everytime logical position will be mutants. The X-men themselves don't directly have go through the stuff for the book to be about hate and fear of mutants.

Oh my goodness, stuff like this would be juicy. Just this shift away from the X-Men experiencing this directly, and making the hate variable gets a lot closer to how discrimination works in real life. A much more elegant and uncomfortable approach to the hated and feared angle. Now I'm hoping the ideas you guys put forward get adopted in some way post-Krakoa.

[Lucyinthesky]

"Them" in the world hates and fear them doesn't have to be the X-men themselves. The easy example of something like this Barack Obama who was clearly one of the most loved presidents but he was clearly hated as well. The X-men themselves don't need to be complete focal point of the all the issues mutantdom. The X-men reflected reality more when they had the Morlocks(lower class mutants), Genoshans(working class mutants),Hellfire Club(upper class mutants),etc and the X-men themselves who are mixture of all them. When they blanket treat mutants as all the same thing inevitable we will reach these extinction situations or mutants having to pick being a mutants over being a humans.

The X-men works best imo when mutantkind treats X-men the way fans treat Avengers. It is far more interesting book if a Geonshan is asking Emma Frost "where were you when they burned our young", It is far more interesting book if X-men are protecting hate rally away from other mutants than Avengers. It is more interesting when the X-men can be loved and honored in parade for saving the world, Go out later to party,They have trouble getting into club and Jean Grey can read the minds of people understand that some of them still hate them. Writers need to learn that you shouldn't place the X-men in position where they have to pick between being mutant/protecting mutants and protecting humans because everytime logical position will be mutants. The X-men themselves don't directly have go through the stuff for the book to be about hate and fear of mutants.

I agree completely, mutants just like real world communities are not monoliths who think or act the same way all the time or have the same experiences, mutant massacre was such a brutal and well done crossover not because the X-men experienced it themselves but because they were unable to stop the worse of it so even if they defeated the marauders in the end they felt like they lost but at least they could use the resources of the school to attend to the needs of the survivors, which is sometimes what happens in real life and it makes you feel close to the characters and callisto rightfully was angry at the X-men lack of attention to the morlocks.

Yeah, that what rubs me the wrong way about events. Civil War was so promising, its premise was so good and they pissed it away. It's part of the reason I'm always afraid Marvel will ruin brilliant things, though thankfully it seems like they let Hickman do what he wants when he's on a franchise. I overwhelmingly agree that they'll keep the 'hated and feared' thing as it's their brand, but you said it best: The absurd, ridiculous intensity of it since the 'survival' era began has led to one of the worst decades of X-books. Krakoa as it exists may crumble to nothing, but the franchise is poised to enter a significantly better era.[

Agreed I think Krakoa works as a transition phase for the X-men but I don´t think it needs to crumble once there´s no inmediate danger for the mutants, part of the reason I enjoy the Krakoa´s context is that it allows for a lot of stories for each character and not all of them have to be about survival, for once the mutants are thriving as a society and who knows maybe the X-men will keep the leadership of it, maybe not, maybe in the near future other mutants will take control of the country and the X-men will not feel needed there for it to grow and develop so they can get back to doing their main thing of being superheroes, there are a lot of possibilities and that´s always a nice thing. If anything I think Hickman has yet to really develop Krakoa´s potential and if what I think it´s also happening, there´s a possibility we will see in the near future other mutant countries on Genosha and other locations, including space.

[Metal Sphere]

Agreed I think Krakoa works as a transition phase for the X-men but I don´t think it needs to crumble once there´s no inmediate danger for the mutants, part of the reason I enjoy the Krakoa´s context is that it allows for a lot of stories for each character and not all of them have to be about survival, for once the mutants are thriving as a society and who knows maybe the X-men will keep the leadership of it, maybe not, maybe in the near future other mutants will take control of the country and the X-men will not feel needed there for it to grow and develop so they can get back to doing their main thing of being superheroes, there are a lot of possibilities and that´s always a nice thing. If anything I think Hickman has yet to really develop Krakoa´s potential and if what I think it´s also happening, there´s a possibility we will see in the near future other mutant countries on Genosha and other locations, including space.

Oh, I don't mean Krakoa will be no more. Just the current state with the resurrections, miracle drugs, and Quiet Council. I fully expect Krakoa will be around as a mutant version of the Inhumans' Attilan or the Deviants' Lemuria. It makes me wonder about those offworld colonies, though. Maybe a segue into easier access to cosmic marvel stories? I wonder whether the gateways will survive this era, though. They're a little too easy, not quite as bad as long range teleporters but close. Krakoa has many more stories to tell as a mutant country and culture on a human planet, but those won't come until phase 1 and 2 (nation building, conflict & collapse) take place. I'm right there with you in thinking that once Krakoa is stable, the X-Men we know and love will probably live and work elsewhere. There's no reason why they can't have the mansion and Krakoa.

[Lucyinthesky]

Agreed Genosha being kind of back was already teased in HoX and Hickman is the kind of writer who doesn´t tease anything if he won´t tackle it in the near future. I think that at some point the resurrections will have to go once all the X-men characters are back imo also most of the villains once they reveal their hand will either go away or stay and change their ways.

Yes I also see Krakoa as a future mutant Attilan, along with Genosha and maybe that Shiar Space Scott asked Gladiator for them to go live there, it´s a good way to have cosmic adventures without having to use issues about the travel itself, same with the gateway for Otherworld. They will probably stay but not have the same activity, the writers already showed us with Kitty and those assasains from X-force that the gateways are not infallible so other types of transport will be needed.

I also would like to see some international politics between the new mutant nations and Wakanda, Latveria, Atlantis, Attilan, Lemuria, etc. apart from the US and Russia.

[Ursalink]

Agreed Genosha being kind of back was already teased in HoX and Hickman is the kind of writer who doesn´t tease anything if he won´t tackle it in the near future. I think that at some point the resurrections will have to go once all the X-men characters are back imo also most of the villains once they reveal their hand will either go away or stay and change their ways.

Yes I also see Krakoa as a future mutant Attilan, along with Genosha and maybe that Shiar Space Scott asked Gladiator for them to go live there, it´s a good way to have cosmic adventures without having to use issues about the travel itself, same with the gateway for Otherworld. They will probably stay but not have the same activity, the writers already showed us with Kitty and those assasains from X-force that the gateways are not infallible so other types of transport will be needed.

I also would like to see some international politics between the new mutant nations and Wakanda, Latveria, Atlantis, Attilan, Lemuria, etc. apart from the US and Russia.

Mutants CAN'T work as society. They have already tried that many times in the past and they all blow up in their faces. And now, X-Men are acting like the jerkest imbeciles of all. They are literally pushing their luck to their limits. Having individuals like Apocalypse, Sebastian Shaw and Mr Sinister is the piece that is going to be their doom. They clearly have their own agendas, agendas that will cause BIG problems for all Krakoa. In the end, Krakoa will be burnt to ashes, mutants will suffer another "Genosha" with most of mutants killed, and when the truth about Moira will be revealed, it will be the last drop for ALL of them. Best scenario? Surviving X-Men will kill Xavier in retaliation for manipulating them. And now knowing theirs is a lost war, they will leave not wanting to have anything to do with the X-Men ever again.

[Lucyinthesky]

Nah that´s just the conflict needed to make the story interesting imo when you have a nation as strong as Krakoa full of Omega level mutants, reality warpers, telepaths, fighters, etc you need to give their antagonist the symbolical "death star" to keep the tension in the story and that´s what I guess Hickman is doing by also bringing the Brood, Shiar, Phalanx et all as well as the Nimrods. I am actually waiting to see the villains show their hand that will be interesting, Moira as well, can´t wait for the second round of Mystique and Destiny vs Moira and Xavier but this is nothing compared to what the X-men have had to deal with before, in fact it´s still not quite to the level of stakes they have to deal with in crossovers like Age of Apocalypse or the decimation.

Genosha worked very well as a society before the sentinels came, it wasn´t that they could not work, it was another editorial mandate to reduce the mutant population, but now editorial has other ideas and they know 198 mutants is quite a small number even for a minority.

[Outburstz]

Mutants CAN'T work as society. They have already tried that many times in the past and they all blow up in their faces. And now, X-Men are acting like the jerkest imbeciles of all. They are literally pushing their luck to their limits. Having individuals like Apocalypse, Sebastian Shaw and Mr Sinister is the piece that is going to be their doom. They clearly have their own agendas, agendas that will cause BIG problems for all Krakoa. In the end, Krakoa will be burnt to ashes, mutants will suffer another "Genosha" with most of mutants killed, and when the truth about Moira will be revealed, it will be the last drop for ALL of them. Best scenario? Surviving X-Men will kill Xavier in retaliation for manipulating them. And now knowing theirs is a lost war, they will leave not wanting to have anything to do with the X-Men ever again.

Mutants can absolutely work as a society but just like any group there will be difference on how it will be run. I do believe that Moria will get exposed and deposed but there will be those that will continue to believe in the idea of Krakoa even if they know they may not win. It will keep being around while others (mainly the villains or those that got burned personally) will go do there own thing.

Just like now people seem to think that every mutant is on Krakoa now but that isn't the case. There are mutants for what ever reason that still live in the human world. Krakoa as an ideal and nation is just something that will always be there for those that want it.

[Tycon]

Mutants CAN'T work as society. They have already tried that many times in the past and they all blow up in their faces. And now, X-Men are acting like the jerkest imbeciles of all. They are literally pushing their luck to their limits. Having individuals like Apocalypse, Sebastian Shaw and Mr Sinister is the piece that is going to be their doom. They clearly have their own agendas, agendas that will cause BIG problems for all Krakoa. In the end, Krakoa will be burnt to ashes, mutants will suffer another "Genosha" with most of mutants killed, and when the truth about Moira will be revealed, it will be the last drop for ALL of them. Best scenario? Surviving X-Men will kill Xavier in retaliation for manipulating them. And now knowing theirs is a lost war, they will leave not wanting to have anything to do with the X-Men ever again.

In what world is a story about mutants losing everything and being shunted into grimdark storytelling for the nth time more interesting than seeing mutants develop as a culture and a nation. Reading HOXPOX, Excalibur, and X-Men, we know exactly what •-[A]-•’s agenda is and it doesn’t conflict with Krakoa at all. In fact, all three embrace the mutant culture they’re building and operate within the confines of the laws (sans Shaw, who still doesn’t want to crumble Krakoa but rather just usurp control of the Hellfire Trading Company).

Moira’s truth isn’t gonna be what breaks Krakoa, it’s gonna be what revitalizes Moira’s pragmatic view of the world. Not necessarily that Xavier’s dream was right but the whole “mutants always lose” ideology. There’s gonna be devastating twists and major changes but you’re fooling yourself if you think this is gonna be anything other than a happy/victorious ending for mutants.

[Zelena]

Mutants CAN'T work as society. They have already tried that many times in the past and they all blow up in their faces. And now, X-Men are acting like the jerkest imbeciles of all. They are literally pushing their luck to their limits. Having individuals like Apocalypse, Sebastian Shaw and Mr Sinister is the piece that is going to be their doom. They clearly have their own agendas, agendas that will cause BIG problems for all Krakoa. In the end, Krakoa will be burnt to ashes, mutants will suffer another "Genosha" with most of mutants killed, and when the truth about Moira will be revealed, it will be the last drop for ALL of them. Best scenario? Surviving X-Men will kill Xavier in retaliation for manipulating them. And now knowing theirs is a lost war, they will leave not wanting to have anything to do with the X-Men ever again.

Of course, they can. Why not? It's up to the authors that the mutants find a way to live together like we do with all the problems we face everyday.

What it interests me as a reader, it's that the mutants have a distinct voice, a strong personnality… If they just get along with the villains, without criticism… Without criticizing Xavier and Magneto… criticizing themselves… like they did in the past, it runs empty for me.

I had a connection with them, it's no more the case.
And without this connection, I don't care what happens to them. 'Them' don't exist without the feelings I have towards them.
Krakoa can be destroyed, whatever… It's just an idea.

[Ursalink]

In what world is a story about mutants losing everything and being shunted into grimdark storytelling for the nth time more interesting than seeing mutants develop as a culture and a nation. Reading HOXPOX, Excalibur, and X-Men, we know exactly what •-[A]-•’s agenda is and it doesn’t conflict with Krakoa at all. In fact, all three embrace the mutant culture they’re building and operate within the confines of the laws (sans Shaw, who still doesn’t want to crumble Krakoa but rather just usurp control of the Hellfire Trading Company).

Moira’s truth isn’t gonna be what breaks Krakoa, it’s gonna be what revitalizes Moira’s pragmatic view of the world. Not necessarily that Xavier’s dream was right but the whole “mutants always lose” ideology. There’s gonna be devastating twists and major changes but you’re fooling yourself if you think this is gonna be anything other than a happy/victorious ending for mutants.

You are the one who's fooling yourself, pal. Do you honestly believe Apocalypse or Mr Sinister are going to just accept something like Krakoa? Apocalypse's ideology has always been "only the strongest survive", and suddenly a paradise for mutants where they can all live without worries, leaving themselves get weak and comfortable, do you really believe Apocalypse will accept something like that? That's exactly what happened to the Dodo bird, and it ended extinct. You are really dumb if you think he's not up to something.

And when I said all mutants were in Krakoa? I never did. Besides, surely there are tons of mutants who doesn't buy the whole thing about Krakoa, because they know they will end like Genosha, Asteroid M and all the others.

Mutants can't work as society because their tendency to isolate themselves. It's very easy the whole topic about prejuices and stuff against mutants, but how many times mutants have ruined human lifes just because? Many of the better known mutant haters were victims of mutant brutality as kids and grew up looking for revenge; like Graydron Creed and Lydia Nance. Clearly, Mutants can have human childs, and you are telling me is good for mutants to abuse them? And how about all the innocent humans that Magneto, Apocalypse and other mutant criminals killed in the past simply for being in the wrong place? Have they answered for those crimes? And now Mutants pretend to cheat death and avoid judgement while the innocents who died by their hands stay dead? The Ghost Riders would have A LOT to say about that.

What do you think it will happen when a human baby will be born in Krakoa? It's not about "if", but "when". If they treat that baby as trash for not being mutant, it will be the absolute proof that Mutants are nothing but freaks that doesn't even deserve to exist.