Stephen Strange: Doctor Strange Appreciation 2021

[Albert1981]

The 1978 (TV) movie is VERY bad. "Turn off your brain" bad.
The unofficial Strange film Doctor Mordrid is slightly better, but still cheesy as hell.



I can't think of any stories where an entity refused aid, but there WAS a fairly famous story where they all decided to call in his mystical debts at the same time.

I have mixed feelings about Strange Academy. On the one hand, I love the school atmosphere. On the other, the writers don't seem to want to DO anything with it, preferring to tell dark stories that hinge on the almost exclusively angsty backstories of the students. I think we've had maybe a half-dozen pages of actual classes in the last 4 issues.

I've said this many times before. I kind of dislike older superhero movies because of the sheer amount of campiness and silliness in them. But I don't hate them. Because they are products of their times. And they have a certain charm to them. So I probably wouldn't mind watching them just for sheer entertainment. Perhaps I'll check out that Doctor Strange movie precisely for that reason. It's the more modern superhero flicks that take themselves too seriously which I truly dislike. Thankfully, the MCU has avoided that kind of thing.

[Eto]

OMG OMG OMG
Strange Tales #138 was E P I C.
Friggin first appearance of ETERNITY!
:0
Stephen is the second human being (first is Ancient One) to have come eye to eye with Eternity.

I have read all issues up until #146.

Question regarding #146
So Eternity vs Dormammu....OMG. What just happened, no seriously, what happened they both faded away.....like the entire universe was about to collapse.
Stan Lee's final issue is #144, damn I thought he had written the book for a longer period.
Nevertheless, I love love love his run on strange tales. It's a masterpiece, one of a kind story!
He gave us Stephen Strange, Ancient One, Dormammu, Mordo, Nightmare, Clea and more! These are compelling round characters. On top of that, the marvellous art by Ditko should be emphasised as well!


#146
Finally Clea tells her name to Stephen!


Question regarding #142,
Stephen's head was encased, but why didn't they SHOW us that part? From one panel to the other, poof, it just happened.


#141
I knew Stephen would be able to outsmart Dormammu, but outsmarting one thing, beating him physically is another. It must have taken his all. The battle with the pincers. This was basically an h2h battle between Stephen and Dormammu, both had the same gear.

[GenericUsername]

You're right about the video games. The very few I've played have been fantasy-based ones with some tech added in. I do think production companies are afraid of fantasy stuff because it costs a LOT of money to make those kinds of shows and movies. And the chances of success can be lower than in other genres (because of the costs). But then again, I REALLY didn't like the Amazing Spider-Men movies, Man of Steel and Batman v Superman and they were science fiction/cosmic movies. I particularly disliked Lois Lane's portrayal in the DCEU movies. I love investigative journalism. Even the muckraking stuff. So I think movies like All the President's Men (which I saw), Spotlight (which I didn't see), and the Post (which I also didn't see) would be really interesting to watch. And have more chances of succeeding than fantasy movies/shows. I get that Warner Brothers tried to make Lois a more capable and modern "career woman", but I thought her behavior was extremely annoying. Like her bragging about being a "Pulitzer Prize winning journalist". I can't square that with her asking General Amajagh if he was a terrorist in that Batman v Superman film. Amy Adams is pretty hot though. In my eyes there's only ONE time anybody should be asking if somebody is a terrorist. And that's in one of my favorite pick-up lines: Dude: "Is your Daddy a terrorist? Girl: Why do you ask that? Dude: Because baby you da bomb!!!"

I was fine with Lois in the DCEU. But animated Lois is the best one for me.

[Albert1981]

I was fine with Lois in the DCEU. But animated Lois is the best one for me.

I didn't hate her. But I didn't like her as much as I wanted to. In my humble opinion, animated shows portray superhero women better than their live-action counterparts. And I generally like DC female characters better than the Marvel ones. I don't know why that is though. I was actually curious to see how Clea would be portrayed in a future Strange film. But I really doubt she's showing up in the Multiverse of Madness in any significant kind of way. I think the pandemic-related delays changed what Strange 2 is going to be about. If Strange 2 was released like a week after WandaVision concluded and Wanda found her kids then, it would feel VERY cheap to me. It will take away from the poignancy of WandaVision's conclusion. But now that more than a year will have passed between the end of WandaVision and Strange 2's release date, I'm okay with it now. But I REALLY hope the film focuses a lot of its attention on Stephen. I don't want him to be overshadowed by other characters and storylines in his own movie.

[Clea]

I have read all issues up until #146.

Question regarding #146
So Eternity vs Dormammu....OMG. What just happened, no seriously, what happened they both faded away.....like the entire universe was about to collapse.
Stan Lee's final issue is #144, damn I thought he had written the book for a longer period.
Nevertheless, I love love love his run on strange tales. It's a masterpiece, one of a kind story!
He gave us Stephen Strange, Ancient One, Dormammu, Mordo, Nightmare, Clea and more! These are compelling round characters. On top of that, the marvellous art by Ditko should be emphasised as well!


#146
Finally Clea tells her name to Stephen!


Question regarding #142,
Stephen's head was encased, but why didn't they SHOW us that part? From one panel to the other, poof, it just happened.


#141
I knew Stephen would be able to outsmart Dormammu, but outsmarting one thing, beating him physically is another. It must have taken his all. The battle with the pincers. This was basically an h2h battle between Stephen and Dormammu, both had the same gear.

You have to wait a couple years' worth of stories to find out what happened to Dormammu and Eternity. They show up again in Doctor Strange starting with #172 in 1968.

As for why they didn't show Strange getting his head encased in that helmet...He was unconscious and woke up with it on, so I think they didn't show his opponent putting it on him to give a sort of visual jolt to the reader and to Strange. The reader sees it at the same time that Strange himself becomes aware of it.

You must be heading into the stories with Kaluu and Umar. I love the character of Umar. She's utterly evil and completely insane.

[Albert1981]

Yeah, I've heard interesting things about Strange Academy. I have always been a huge fan of coming of age stories, so this would be a good place for that. But I was hoping it would be more like Saved by the Bell. From what I'm reading on this thread, it bears more of a resemblance to Beverly Hills, 90210! That's not exactly my cup of tea.

[DigiCom]

Yeah, I've heard interesting things about Strange Academy. I have always been a huge fan of coming of age stories, so this would be a good place for that. But I was hoping it would be more like Saved by the Bell. From what I'm reading on this thread, it bears more of a resemblance to Beverly Hills, 90210! That's not exactly my cup of tea.

Nah. More like Riverdale. Everyone has a secret or dysfunction, and one student has already "died".

(They got better.)

[Albert1981]

Nah. More like Riverdale. Everyone has a secret or dysfunction, and one student has already "died".

(They got better.)

Oh, I see. Thank you very much for clearing things up.

I think it would be a mistake for Marvel to replicate any Breakfast Club type stories in their comic books. And I guess death continues to remain as harmless as the common cold in the Marvel Universe. Big surprise there. I wouldn't mind some Dead Poets Society vibes in that series though.

I have to come clean. The Multiverse of Madness sounds like a really exciting and interesting movie. I'm looking forward to watching it. There's just one thing about the picture that disagrees with me. I don't believe in the multiverse theory. I think there's just one reality. Physicists are divided on this subject and the proponents and opponents of multiverses each have good cases to support their claims. I just think the arguments against the existences of multiverses are more convincing to me.

At any rate, I think Marvel is doing a great job by consulting with quantum physicists in order to get the "science" in their stories as coherent and consistent as possible. I just think it would help a LOT if they consulted with fantasy authors to get their perspectives on magic as well. Or at least give you a call. Here's an older article discussing Marvel's gradual introduction of supernatural themes into the MCU from a few years back:

https://vocal.media/geeks/magic-and-...e-supernatural

I found another older article describing how important Doctor Strange's introduction into the MCU was for the future of magic in it:

https://nerdsonearth.com/2016/04/the...rvel-universe/

I'm just curious, do you think WandaVision did an adequate job of explaining magic during that series? I thought they were really creative and imaginative in getting Wanda to use those "runes" to defeat Agatha, but the following article thinks that the "Fietro reveal" undermined the magic "power scale" in the finale:

https://georgetownvoice.com/2021/04/...n-wandavision/

[DigiCom]

There's just one thing about the picture that disagrees with me. I don't believe in the multiverse theory. I think there's just one reality. Physicists are divided on this subject and the proponents and opponents of multiverses each have good cases to support their claims. I just think the arguments against the existences of multiverses are more convincing to me.

Well, that's just the thing. The MCU is fiction, so you don't have to believe in it.

I'm just curious, do you think WandaVision did an adequate job of explaining magic during that series? I thought they were really creative and imaginative in getting Wanda to use those "runes" to defeat Agatha, but the following article thinks that the "Fietro reveal" undermined the magic "power scale" in the finale:

https://georgetownvoice.com/2021/04/...n-wandavision/

Personally? Not really. They didn't so much explain magic as say "this is what she can do".

The Hex, the mass brainwashing, the transformation of Monica, the creation of the kids. None of that was _explained_, per se. Just treated as a fait accompli.

Just saying "that's chaos magic!" doesn't answer any questions, anymore than saying "That's invisible elves!" or "That's description theory!" Or even "that's nanotech!"

I did like the bits with the runes, but I think it would have been better if they'd made it so she used the SAME runes as Agatha, not a different set. Then it would be clear that she simply duplicated what she saw, rather than pulling the knowledge out of nowhere.

But I'm a writer at heart. I tend to nitpick.

[Albert1981]

Well, that's just the thing. The MCU is fiction, so you don't have to believe in it.



Personally? Not really. They didn't so much explain magic as say "this is what she can do".

The Hex, the mass brainwashing, the transformation of Monica, the creation of the kids. None of that was _explained_, per se. Just treated as a fait accompli.

Just saying "that's chaos magic!" doesn't answer any questions, anymore than saying "That's invisible elves!" or "That's description theory!" Or even "that's nanotech!"

I did like the bits with the runes, but I think it would have been better if they'd made it so she used the SAME runes as Agatha, not a different set. Then it would be clear that she simply duplicated what she saw, rather than pulling the knowledge out of nowhere.

But I'm a writer at heart. I tend to nitpick.

Yeah, I feel the same way. Not saying it made for a bad story. I was really engaged and entertained by it. And I think more magical exposition would have bogged things down a lot. But I've NEVER been a big fan of characters creating something out of nothing. My previous support for magic use having a price has not made me popular on this thread. Here are some sentiments I agree with:

"I like the fact that every spell has a cost though perhaps it could use a bit more consistency. The way I see it, if a spell makes something out of nothing then it should have a cost. If a spell requires materials then it should be free. Some exceptions may apply."

"I previously thought that most of the time magic in Marvel is a lot like: "Hey SuperGod, can I get some lightning over here? I want to blast this guy." "Sure thing dude let me help you out."

But from what I understand, Wanda did most of what she did in Westview on her own. How the hell is Marvel Studios gonna explain what happened with her WHILE at the same time focusing on Strange's story in his movie next year? Seems like a lot of ground to cover in a two-hour movie. I don't think you're nitpicking by the way. I think SOME form of explanation about what happened is not an unreasonable ask. It shouldn't take away from the enjoyment and fun from the show/movies we watch and the books (including comics) that we read. I think it should make them better. I think a "soft" magical explanation is the way to go here.

[GenericUsername]

Yeah, I feel the same way. Not saying it made for a bad story. I was really engaged and entertained by it. And I think more magical exposition would have bogged things down a lot. But I've NEVER been a big fan of characters creating something out of nothing. My previous support for magic use having a price has not made me popular on this thread. Here are some sentiments I agree with:

"I like the fact that every spell has a cost though perhaps it could use a bit more consistency. The way I see it, if a spell makes something out of nothing then it should have a cost. If a spell requires materials then it should be free. Some exceptions may apply."

"I previously thought that most of the time magic in Marvel is a lot like: "Hey SuperGod, can I get some lightning over here? I want to blast this guy." "Sure thing dude let me help you out."

But from what I understand, Wanda did most of what she did in Westview on her own. How the hell is Marvel Studios gonna explain what happened with her WHILE at the same time focusing on Strange's story in his movie next year? Seems like a lot of ground to cover in a two-hour movie. I don't think you're nitpicking by the way. I think SOME form of explanation about what happened is not an unreasonable ask. It shouldn't take away from the enjoyment and fun from the show/movies we watch and the books (including comics) that we read. I think it should make them better. I think a "soft" magical explanation is the way to go here.

They already explained what happened in her show. It might not be gratifying. But she had a breakdown. And refused to confront what she did. Now she wants to learn about her powers to learn to control them. Hopefully that happens. But whatever happens with Wanda it should be only incidental to what is going on with Strange. They absolutely under no circumstances should crowd his movie with her story. It's not her movie. She got 5 and a half hours. He's only had a couple in his first film.

[Albert1981]

They already explained what happened in her show. It might not be gratifying. But she had a breakdown. And refused to confront what she did. Now she wants to learn about her powers to learn to control them. Hopefully that happens. But whatever happens with Wanda it should be only incidental to what is going on with Strange. They absolutely under no circumstances should crowd his movie with her story. It's not her movie. She got 5 and a half hours. He's only had a couple in his first film.

No, no, no. I think you're misunderstanding me entirely. And it's my fault. I didn't make myself clear. I just popped over to the WandaVision thread, and the discussions there are about the ethical and moral dimensions of Wanda's actions in her own show. Interesting debate. A debate I'm no longer engaged in because I have already said my piece and have bored myself by repeating it like a THOUSAND times. I'm hoping that somehow, Wanda will emerge from her next movie a hero. But what I'm actually talking about is Wanda's MAGIC. I understand how her breakdown triggered her magical powers. I know she doesn't understand them...Yet. But I still don't know HOW she did what she did magically. She didn't call on some demons to help her, she didn't draw any powers from other dimensions, and she didn't use amulets or books to help her. So it just came from "within" her? I think SOME form of magical explanation is in order.

I know Joe Quesada took some heat for what I consider to be a very humorous response to the break-up of Spider-Man's and Mary Jane's marriage:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...via/OneMoreDay

"It's magic. We don't need to explain it." Apparently a divorce in the Marvel Universe is worse than a literal deal with the Devil. That kind of sentiment reflects a lot of people's views about fantasy tales. In any case, don't you think it's highly problematic that magic is not being explained adequately in the MCU? I don't wanna have the movies and shows use magic like they did in the comic books: As deus ex machinas. It just absolutely KILLS the tension and drama in stories. And makes it harder for writers to write about powerful magical characters. People on other forums and message boards I lurk on are already asking, why don't Strange and Wanda remove Hawkeye's deafness, cure Jane Foster's cancer, or reverse War Machine's paralysis? Here's a quote that sort of deals with what I'm talking about:

"That part of the final battle (in regards to the use of runes by Wanda) was set up nicely in advance, but before we got there we kind of had to sit through a lot of special effects shots involving Wanda shooting red magic balls and Agatha shooting purple magic balls. Considering Wanda’s powers were revealed to be so godlike she could warp physical reality with her mind and create sentient life out of thin air, it was a little silly that so much of the battle involved those energy balls. I think they could have had more fun with Wanda’s new ability to modify her surroundings, or create physical constructs from her imagination."

That's a good point. Why have these two ultra-powerful witches ONLY exchange fireballs and lightning bolts for SO long, when they are pretty much magical gods? It makes no sense to me. And yes, since Billy and Tommy were calling out to Wanda at the end of WandaVision, I think it's only fair that there's gonna have to be an explanation of how they came into existence. And that's going to take some time in STRANGE's movie. I don't even know how they're gonna do this. But I hope they have a reasonable explanation. Saying that "It's magic. We don't need to explain it." does NOT cut it!!!

Now I'm going to bed. I'm looking forward to reading your response tomorrow. Good night!

[GenericUsername]

No, no, no. I think you're misunderstanding me entirely. And it's my fault. I didn't make myself clear. I just popped over to the WandaVision thread, and the discussions there are about the ethical and moral dimensions of Wanda's actions in her own show. Interesting debate. A debate I'm no longer engaged in because I have already said my piece and have bored myself by repeating it like a THOUSAND times. I'm hoping that somehow, Wanda will emerge from her next movie a hero. But what I'm actually talking about is Wanda's MAGIC. I understand how her breakdown triggered her magical powers. I know she doesn't understand them...Yet. But I still don't know HOW she did what she did magically. She didn't call on some demons to help her, she didn't draw any powers from other dimensions, and she didn't use amulets or books to help her. So it just came from "within" her? I think SOME form of magical explanation is in order.

I know Joe Quesada took some heat for what I consider to be a very humorous response to the break-up of Spider-Man's and Mary Jane's marriage:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...via/OneMoreDay

"It's magic. We don't need to explain it." Apparently a divorce in the Marvel Universe is worse than a literal deal with the Devil. That kind of sentiment reflects a lot of people's views about fantasy tales. In any case, don't you think it's highly problematic that magic is not being explained adequately in the MCU? I don't wanna have the movies and shows use magic like they did in the comic books: As deus ex machinas. It just absolutely KILLS the tension and drama in stories. And makes it harder for writers to write about powerful magical characters. People on other forums and message boards I lurk on are already asking, why don't Strange and Wanda remove Hawkeye's deafness, cure Jane Foster's cancer, or reverse War Machine's paralysis? Here's a quote that sort of deals with what I'm talking about:

"That part of the final battle (in regards to the use of runes by Wanda) was set up nicely in advance, but before we got there we kind of had to sit through a lot of special effects shots involving Wanda shooting red magic balls and Agatha shooting purple magic balls. Considering Wanda’s powers were revealed to be so godlike she could warp physical reality with her mind and create sentient life out of thin air, it was a little silly that so much of the battle involved those energy balls. I think they could have had more fun with Wanda’s new ability to modify her surroundings, or create physical constructs from her imagination."

That's a good point. Why have these two ultra-powerful witches ONLY exchange fireballs and lightning bolts for SO long, when they are pretty much magical gods? It makes no sense to me. And yes, since Billy and Tommy were calling out to Wanda at the end of WandaVision, I think it's only fair that there's gonna have to be an explanation of how they came into existence. And that's going to take some time in STRANGE's movie. I don't even know how they're gonna do this. But I hope they have a reasonable explanation. Saying that "It's magic. We don't need to explain it." does NOT cut it!!!

Now I'm going to bed. I'm looking forward to reading your response tomorrow. Good night!

I'm sure she'll learn about her magic from what they know of it in the film. I'm expecting the Darkhold to be the missing book of Kamar-taj. And hopefully they get into the lore of the Vishanti and how the book of the Vishanti counters the Darkhold. But I doubt they go into Chthon, Wundagore Mountain and all those details. Unless it's a very brief telling to Wanda from someone else. Maybe as an aside to getting into the Vishanti lore.

Wanda's powers didn't have a whole lot of variation in their presentation in comics. So what they would see for reference is it going from not showing anything early on to her tossing hex spheres. Kurt Busiek described them as chaos grenades. They really over-exaggerated her powers because there were limits on them in comics.

They went full tilt, when she could not warp reality at will. She had to be tapping into a power strong enough to do that, and only did that a few times in her 57 years. And even that is a modern take. Her children were basically her physical constructs and in comics weren't created with her powers alone.

So there isn't too much criticism I can give about them not mixing things up. She mostly points at things and things happen.

Quesada would believe he doesn't have to explain it. I'm not surprised by that.

[DigiCom]

I continually find it amusing & frustrating that folks look to the comics for both explanations for things & for things to explain in the MCU.

(Case in point... MCU!Jane doesn't have cancer. She MIGHT, but as of yet that hasn't been revealed. Nor has there been ANY mention of the Vishanti.)

[Clea]

I continually find it amusing & frustrating that folks look to the comics for both explanations for things & for things to explain in the MCU.

(Case in point... MCU!Jane doesn't have cancer. She MIGHT, but as of yet that hasn't been revealed. Nor has there been ANY mention of the Vishanti.)

The MCU is a shiny, streamlined, simplified version of storylines from the comics. The stories in the films are similar enough to source stories in the comics that I think it's natural for the film-first fans to expect to find all of their answers in the comics. Unfortunately, they won't find all their answers in the comics. The films are an alt-universe version of the comics. They look the same, and kinda sorta have the same plots, but they're not the same.

So far as magic is concerned, the comics have explained how magic works. Marvel has produced 'rules' and guidelines. Whether their writers abide by those rules is a different question. In the films, the Ancient One pretty much summarized magic to Strange as tapping into the energy of other mystical dimensions and shaping that energy according to the will of the magic user. Sorcerers need to study and practice, be mindful, and use magic to serve others, not yourself. We saw magic users draw power from a deity-like being (Dormammu), so the movies showed that magic can also be derived from other beings as well as from the raw magical energies in other dimensions. IMO, it was a sufficient introduction and explanation for Strange's magic. Maybe they'll expand on it, maybe not. Doesn't matter. For storytelling purposes, that's enough of an explanation for future MCU stories about Strange.

As for Wanda, in the comics she's been through constant changes depending on who was writing her and when. She's a mutant. No, she's a witch. No, she's a Nexus Being! She's bad, she's good. She's a mass murderer. No she's not! She's crazy, she's sane. She uses chaos magic. There's no such thing as chaos magic! Oops, yes there is! Chaos magic is just like any other type of mystical energy. No, it's linked to the evil being Chthon so it's bad! No, it's not! Poor Wanda has been through the wringer in the comics. The MCU simplified it all down to this: She had hex powers that gave her the ability to manipulate people's minds and the physical world. She didn't understand where those powers came from. Her abilities got amplified by exposure to an Infinity Stone, so then she could manipulate reality on an even larger scale and did things that sometimes had bad, unintended consequences. She is prone to reacting emotionally. She had a breakdown. A knowledgeable witch came along who was educated enough in magic to see that Wanda was unknowingly using chaos magic. That witch tried to steal Wanda's powers but got her ass kicked, and Wanda took the book of dark magic that explains her powers and left to go study on her own. It's very possible that this is going to be the only explanation for Wanda's magic in the movies that the MCU will provide. I think it's sufficient to serve as the foundation for future MCU stories about Wanda.