The "retroactively making old DC characters gay/bi/biracial" thread

[astro@work]

Yup, you're totally right. That was Dee who died in Infinite Crisis, not Stormy. My bad!

It's been over a decade, I'm allowed to fudge a few details.

But my point stands; the Phantom Lady legacies (along with most other new/legacy characters) don't have a great track record of sticking around, which makes it challenging to even out the representation aspects of the DCU with fresh blood. We need new characters, and new legacies, and DC shouldn't stop trying to introduce them. But there are a few other routes to take with diversity as well, including having some characters come out of the closet, and those also need to be explored.

But however it's done, it's a delicate thing that needs to be handled carefully.

I’d also add that DC needs to keep more consistency when reintroducing some of their concepts. Did we really need 4 or 5 different versions of Phantom Lady? I honestly liked the final version of the Freedom Fighters (pre 52)...but the nu52 version (that didn’t stick, not the Earth X crew) had very little to do with them.

[Ascended]

I’d also add that DC needs to keep more consistency when reintroducing some of their concepts. Did we really need 4 or 5 different versions of Phantom Lady? I honestly liked the final version of the Freedom Fighters (pre 52)...but the nu52 version (that didn’t stick, not the Earth X crew) had very little to do with them.

DC has a really bad habit of cutting and running at the first sign of trouble, instead of trying to iron out their problems and make what they have work for them. So yeah, I totally agree with you.

On the topic of Phantom Ladies.....I've never let go of the idea that there's a secret institution in Washington DC that trains female spies for America, and their top student becomes the Phantom Lady (it was introduced in the 90's era Damage comic, with Sandra serving as headmistress). So in this particular case, I'm not *terribly* bothered by so many of them running around, at least conceptually. But switching in new characters every few years like they did post-Infinite Crisis doesn't give readers the time to really form an emotional attachment to any particular version, and that's not good business.

[MajorHoy]

I’d also add that DC needs to keep more consistency when reintroducing some of their concepts. Did we really need 4 or 5 different versions of Phantom Lady? I honestly liked the final version of the Freedom Fighters (pre 52)...but the nu52 version (that didn’t stick, not the Earth X crew) had very little to do with them.

Well, in that case, did we even need Stormy? The original (Sandra Knight) was retired but still around, and Infinite Crisis then went and killed off the first "legacy" one, Dee, who had been trained by original Sandra.
And technically, I don't know if Jennifer Knight was really a part of the "New52" or not. She was introduced during that time period (in 2012) but they didn't use the "New52" label on her comic book covers.



Meanwhile, other books from DC starring Superman,Batman, etc. also published when Phantom Lady #1 came out still had the "New52" tag on the covers.

[Ascended]

I *believe* the original idea with the Freedom Fighters was that they were supposed to be on their own alternate earth (like back in the Earth X days), and they'd each get a miniseries before teaming up in the Avenge.....I mean, Freedom Fighters mini, and end up jumping over to the main continuity for some adventures.

But I never read any of the minis so I don't know how accurate that is.

[astro@work]

I *believe* the original idea with the Freedom Fighters was that they were supposed to be on their own alternate earth (like back in the Earth X days), and they'd each get a miniseries before teaming up in the Avenge.....I mean, Freedom Fighters mini, and end up jumping over to the main continuity for some adventures.

But I never read any of the minis so I don't know how accurate that is.

I did read all the mini’s, and that’s the gist of it. It was very non-specific as to what Earth they were on. And Nick Fury, err, Uncle Sam showed up at the end of each mini to recruit them for a project we never saw.

[MajorHoy]

. . . On the topic of Phantom Ladies.....I've never let go of the idea that there's a secret institution in Washington DC that trains female spies for America, and their top student becomes the Phantom Lady (it was introduced in the 90's era Damage comic, with Sandra serving as headmistress).

Actually, I believe the school was first introduced in 1989 in Action Comics Weekly when Dee Tyler (the second Phantom Lady) graduated from there.





That school was located in France.

[Ascended]

I did read all the mini’s, and that’s the gist of it. It was very non-specific as to what Earth they were on. And Nick Fury, err, Uncle Sam showed up at the end of each mini to recruit them for a project we never saw.

How many mini's did they do? There was a Ray mini, the Phantom Lady....was that it? Did they do any others? I was curious about them but my wallet was stretched thin and I was pissed the Freedom Fighters Palometti was writing were gone so I figured I'd hold off and trade wait if the New52 stuff was worthwhile. Should I hunt any of the newer mini's down?

Actually, I believe the school was first introduced in 1989 in Action Comics Weekly when Dee Tyler (the second Phantom Lady) graduated from there.

That school was located in France.

France you say? Interesting. I'm certain the one in Damage was set in the States.

[Agent Z]

So my ideas of how to handle the Phantom Lady legacy:

Sandra Knight can be the original Phantom Lady for the main Earth.


Delilah will be her successor from France. She can serve on the JLI, Global Guardians or whatever international based super team.


Stormy can be from another universe and be part of a multiverse protection organization.



I'm still not sure of which one, if any, should have super powers.

[MajorHoy]

How many mini's did they do? There was a Ray mini, the Phantom Lady....was that it? Did they do any others? I was curious about them but my wallet was stretched thin and I was pissed the Freedom Fighters Palometti was writing were gone so I figured I'd hold off and trade wait if the New52 stuff was worthwhile.

Human Bomb came after Phantom Lady & Doll Man.

[Robanker]

I think in a perfect world we'd be able to introduce new characters and legacies to fix a lot of the problems in comics. But that's a hell of a gamble. For every Michael Holt, who has completely surpassed the original, there are dozens of Red Bee II's (00's era Freedom Fighters) floating in limbo. I mean, when was the last time the newest Phantom Lady showed up anywhere? And the PL before her, Stormy Knight, only lasted a couple years and was never seen beyond the Freedom Fighters miniseries (and I think one death scene in Infinite Crisis?)

We're more or less in agreement on all fronts, but I'm responding to this just to add that while I agree it's a gamble, it's important and should be doubled down on. Creating new characters also establishes a consistency among their history. A fan of, say, Earth-2 Alan Scott being a gay man won't be disappointed deep diving into past issues to find out he's an older, straight man with kids. They could infer he's closted, but it's not really supported. There's nothing to really go on there and no indication E-2!Alan is coming back. And that really sucks for fans of the Earth-2 Alan Scott!

Similarly, Kendra appears a different ethnicity (which, for the record, works very well for me) and Huntress' skin tone has changed to reflect a more ethnic Italian heritage than before.With respect to Huntress, I like her DC Rebirth look more than pretty much any other Huntress, but I've not been keeping up with her, though she was cool in Grayson, to say much else other than I like that change. It made sense. Kendra, well we don't know a whole lot. I kind of like the notion that Carter is the reborn/time displaced classic 1940s Hawkman, but she's Shiera reincarnated as an Egyptian or African American and they're a reincarnation cycle out of lockstep. There's lots of storytelling potential there! Instead of having her resist their feelings for each other as she did Pre-FP, go full-stop into it? I'm not sure where they're going with Kendra after Metal, but I'm interested. Reincarnating characters can come back as any ethnicity, so I'm all for it.

I can only imagine the confusion and disappointment that might hit fans of Wally West on TV who are getting into comics to find out the myriad of complications regarding both Wally Wests.

It's a really hard balance to strike, and changing some things doesn't really work for each character, but it can make sense. I think new characters, however, do provide a cleaner slate and are more likely to stick around. I know it's hard to sell a new character in general in this hobby, but I do believe that's thanks in no small part to the exorbitant cost of the hobby in general. Cheaper digital prices would allow fans of established characters and collectors to still go physical, but give new stuff a shot in digital with much less consideration. But alas, that's a conversation for a separate thread.

[mrbrklyn]

I object to race/gender/orientation-flipping any existing character. New characters are fair game.

I agree it is stupid. The who ageda is bent out of shape .

[BatmanJones]

As for me I don't mind some characters coming out as gay. Statistically it happens, including with people who have children, and superheroes would probably be no different.

My problem with Alan Scott being gay was it erased Obsidian and the tremendous amount of character groundwork it was for a family relationship built on staunch moral standings of a bygone era relaxing and welcoming a concept such as homosexuality with open arms. It was heartwarming to see such an iron headed guy like Alan come to terms and openly accept and love his son for who he was despite how that would probably be considered "against character" in a different time. To erase that was what hurt. Him being gay when the universe was rebooted again doesn't bother me so much, because it ultimately doesn't really matter and the older stories remain. It's just sad to see that continuing dynamic done away with. Even though, like I said, technically those stories still exist. It was just nice to see an older generation reach out and learn from a newer generation as they in turn learned from the old.

I largely agree though I don't think it's impossible for a closeted Alan Scott to go through this same thing. In fact I think it enriches the situation between Alan and Todd that you described. What if all that were true while Alan Scott wasn't comfortable enough to acknowledge that he was gay too?

The Alan-Obsidian relationship you describe reminds me of Ice-T's arc on SVU. He also went through a lot of resistance before accepting his gay son. It's not an uncommon story at all. It is probably the most common story regarding family and homosexuality. If Alan were resistant to Obsidian's sexuality and we later learned that part of that was that his feelings were complicated by his issues with his own sexuality, that would be mighty fresh. That story isn't told very often but it happens all the time IRL.

On first glance I thought you were going to argue Alan being gay would mean no Obsidian which was what too many people said of the E-2 version of the character. Of course closeted gay men have children all the time. I don't need Alan Scott to be gay though. To me it makes all the sense in the world that one or some Golden Age characters would come out of the closet but I don't much care which do it, only that one or some do.

I'm not only on the side that's okay with making characters gay when they weren't gay in-story previously; I actually think it needs to happen.

Can't wait for JSA to come back. Badly want it to be the classic team. Badly want them back on their own earth where they belong. On most topics I'm as intransigent as @MajorHoy wrt honoring OG JSA. We only part company on the issue of making one or some of them gay and previously closeted.

[BatmanJones]

Actually, I believe the school was first introduced in 1989 in Action Comics Weekly when Dee Tyler (the second Phantom Lady) graduated from there.

That school was located in France.

Whatever our disagreements my hat is off to you as a true, major DC fanatic with an incredible feel for DC history. There are maybe 3 of you here that consistently blow my mind with your deep knowledge of DC lore and you're as good as anyone here with regard to that. Though we disagree on this one issue I just respect the heck out of you as a DC historian. You're one of the best.

[BatmanJones]

I agree it is stupid. The who ageda is bent out of shape .

Edited. Not worth it. Carry on.

[Ascended]

We're more or less in agreement on all fronts, but I'm responding to this just to add that while I agree it's a gamble, it's important and should be doubled down on. Creating new characters also establishes a consistency among their history. A fan of, say, Earth-2 Alan Scott being a gay man won't be disappointed deep diving into past issues to find out he's an older, straight man with kids. They could infer he's closted, but it's not really supported. There's nothing to really go on there and no indication E-2!Alan is coming back. And that really sucks for fans of the Earth-2 Alan Scott!

Indeed, the whole thing with Allan is a difficult subject, and I don't blame fans like MajorHoy who would rather keep continuity intact than retcon things. I don't completely agree with the opinion (if there's wiggle room, take advantage) but it's one of those things that'll leave some fans unhappy no matter what you do.

Similarly, Kendra appears a different ethnicity (which, for the record, works very well for me) and Huntress' skin tone has changed to reflect a more ethnic Italian heritage than before.With respect to Huntress, I like her DC Rebirth look more than pretty much any other Huntress, but I've not been keeping up with her, though she was cool in Grayson, to say much else other than I like that change. It made sense. Kendra, well we don't know a whole lot. I kind of like the notion that Carter is the reborn/time displaced classic 1940s Hawkman, but she's Shiera reincarnated as an Egyptian or African American and they're a reincarnation cycle out of lockstep. There's lots of storytelling potential there! Instead of having her resist their feelings for each other as she did Pre-FP, go full-stop into it? I'm not sure where they're going with Kendra after Metal, but I'm interested. Reincarnating characters can come back as any ethnicity, so I'm all for it.

I only read the first Rebirth Birds of Prey trade and I can't say I was blown away by it, but I do really love the new Huntress. Honestly, I didn't even notice the darker skin tone until someone pointed it out to me. But I love it, and I hope it sticks.

And the Hawks, they can be reborn as any ethnicity so you can have a modern day Hawk who's Egyptian and also keep the previous history intact, as long as you schedule in a reincarnation. It's one of my favorite aspects of any DC property; there's so much you can do with the Hawks! What if they were both born as women (or men) in one cycle? How did that play out for them? I'm really looking forward to seeing what DC does with the Hawks post-Metal.

I can only imagine the confusion and disappointment that might hit fans of Wally West on TV who are getting into comics to find out the myriad of complications regarding both Wally Wests.

That's just a huge mess. And I have no idea how they can get themselves out of it in a way that'll satisfy fans of both classic Wally and nu Wally. Other than just having nu Wally go by his full or middle name, I don't think this has a happy ending.

It's a really hard balance to strike, and changing some things doesn't really work for each character, but it can make sense. I think new characters, however, do provide a cleaner slate and are more likely to stick around. I know it's hard to sell a new character in general in this hobby, but I do believe that's thanks in no small part to the exorbitant cost of the hobby in general. Cheaper digital prices would allow fans of established characters and collectors to still go physical, but give new stuff a shot in digital with much less consideration. But alas, that's a conversation for a separate thread.

Oh man, I have a lot of feelings about the entire distribution and pricing system, but you're right, that's a discussion for another thread.