IMPERIUS REX! Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2023

[Reviresco]

Just within the ancient Greek world, there were many sea gods, but also the older generations, the Titans and their own parents, the more primordial gods like Ouranos, Pontus and Gaia, which the Greeks were all aware of. I'm sure Atlanteans would have cults to all these gods. Then you have even deeper, darker beings that would have been worshipped, which is where someone like Suma-Ket comes in.

Yes! And I'm wondering ... I think the Greeks didn't really have an organized religion in the same sense as Christianity. I mean they didn't have councils debating the tenets and rituals, did they? They really didn't have the concept of heretics, right? I think it was more organic and localized.

I think they do have various temples to 'accepted' gods, but Neptune, for obvious reasons, is the main or maybe even state religion. The darker gods, however, would have to be small and secret. It would be interesting to see how they survived ... if those dark gods actually gave power, that kept their religion alive. Which would be awesome to see them playing a role in government and conflicts with Namor.

[Doombot]

Yes! And I'm wondering ... I think the Greeks didn't really have an organized religion in the same sense as Christianity. I mean they didn't have councils debating the tenets and rituals, did they? They really didn't have the concept of heretics, right? I think it was more organic and localized.

I think they do have various temples to 'accepted' gods, but Neptune, for obvious reasons, is the main or maybe even state religion. The darker gods, however, would have to be small and secret. It would be interesting to see how they survived ... if those dark gods actually gave power, that kept their religion alive. Which would be awesome to see them playing a role in government and conflicts with Namor.

Right. We tend to think of religion as a mostly strict doctrine, a set of beliefs with rules and commandments, all sort of unified in a system and "canon" within some sort of complete scripture or book(s). Whereas the Greeks, and many other ancient religions were almost like a patchwork, or collection of differing cults and practices that sort of became loosely unified over time. It would have been more alien to our way of thinking about religion. If you think about the Illiad for instance, you can see clearly how many of the gods had their own temples in various locations and different countries, all with their own worshippers, whom the gods would give favour to or curse one over the other. One of the reasons Achilles himself ends up being killed by Paris, who unknowingly is being guided by Apollo, is that Achilles sacks a temple of Apollo earlier in the war. Also, I think the Trojans themselves were followers of Apollo. It's been a long time lol. What's interesting is, that the Greeks all knew this shared cosmology, yet would worship this god over here, as "my" god, and that other god is a protector of those people over there, even though those two gods were siblings etc. You could be a priest of Athena in Athens, but then have to sail to Sparta, and the whole time be worried about Poseidon's mood, whom you don't worship, but still respect.

[Reviresco]

Right. We tend to think of religion as a mostly strict doctrine, a set of beliefs with rules and commandments, all sort of unified in a system and "canon" within some sort of complete scripture or book(s). Whereas the Greeks, and many other ancient religions were almost like a patchwork, or collection of differing cults and practices that sort of became loosely unified over time. It would have been more alien to our way of thinking about religion. If you think about the Illiad for instance, you can see clearly how many of the gods had their own temples in various locations and different countries, all with their own worshippers, whom the gods would give favour to or curse one over the other. One of the reasons Achilles himself ends up being killed by Paris, who unknowingly is being guided by Apollo, is that Achilles sacks a temple of Apollo earlier in the war. Also, I think the Trojans themselves were followers of Apollo. It's been a long time lol. What's interesting is, that the Greeks all knew this shared cosmology, yet would worship this god over here, as "my" god, and that other god is a protector of those people over there, even though those two gods were siblings etc. You could be a priest of Athena in Athens, but then have to sail to Sparta, and the whole time be worried about Poseidon's mood, whom you don't worship, but still respect.

Right. There wasn't really a "doctrine" therefore no heretics or "infidels." The biggest 'sin' was not giving proper respect / sacrifice to a god at the proper time. Like you better not even think about sailing without sacrificing to Poseidon... and there could be a variant Poseidon when you landed with slightly different rites, who you should sacrifice too, just in case. It does open up possibilities for stories. Especially given how the gods spawned demigods. Plenty of story fodder there.

[K7P5V]

We've seen Namor pray before. It's hard to say what would constitute as pious for Neptune. I think he's more about worship and sacrifice. Regardless, Namor was far more ... religious / spiritual back in his own book. Remember when he went to the Grotto of Ancients and got the prophecy and the blessing of Neptune carved on his belt?

Of course, he didn't have much use for the state religion and priests, back in the day.

Yeah! I still remember. Here's proof...

And then there was ... story where Pak and Van Lente had the Amazons take Neptune hostage. They've also had him serve as Neptune's champion. He's clearly humble before Neptune, even if he doesn't agree with him, like in that Avengers story.

Like you said, it's a bit difficult to grasp, because it's so different. I mean, there's no need for faith, because the gods have walked amongst the people. They also clearly don't expect omniscience from Neptune, either. It's curious too, as far as NOT worshiping other gods in the pantheon, which they did Greece. But apparently, they DO have other gods, older sea gods that they worship -- though perhaps in secret. Which begs the question, are the Atlanteans tolerant of other gods?

For what it's worth, still love the Jae Lee version of Neptune's Champion

[ImperiusWrecked]

Writing this super quick as I'm off for a few days and headed to the seaside but this convo is too interesting for me to wait to get back to my laptop.

I do think Namor is religious and very pious as a character in Namor, the Sub-Mariner (1990) Annual 2, Neptune saves Namor, who is trapped in Rick Jones's body, and states "You're gratitude pleases me, Namor. Despite all your brashness you always accorded me the proper respect" , so it's not so much about Faith and adhering to an organized religion but like you all said it's about respect/worship. In that comic Neptune also talks about how he had to snatch Namor from hades and goes on to say that all the Atlanteans worship Neptune so he won't let harm befall Namor. So I do think Namor is religious in his own way.

[Doombot]

Ah, the Grotto of the Ancients. I wish it had a grandeur to match the name. It does however have underwater flames, that's always a bonus lol, like the scenes with Naga.

Of course I do love the Suma-Ket story arch, it's easily one of my favourite Namor stories. That being said, while I love the idea of the Sacred Armor of Atlantis, I don't exactly love the design Lee created. Nothing about it really looks as if it would be Sacred nor having been created by Neptune. It looks like spiky, edgy 90's armor, complete with many squiggles and skulls all over.

[Reviresco]

Ah, the Grotto of the Ancients. I wish it had a grandeur to match the name. It does however have underwater flames, that's always a bonus lol, like the scenes with Naga.

Of course I do love the Suma-Ket story arch, it's easily one of my favourite Namor stories. That being said, while I love the idea of the Sacred Armor of Atlantis, I don't exactly love the design Lee created. Nothing about it really looks as if it would be Sacred nor having been created by Neptune. It looks like spiky, edgy 90's armor, complete with many squiggles and skulls all over.

Well, if we are talking about grandeur ... Neptune could use a make over too. I really do not like the old bearded geezer in a robe. If I were a god, I certainly would be my best, most imposing self. But you know those places and buildings are never set in stone. Most artists and writers ignore what's come before. Though I do find it interesting that both the Grotto shrine and the one in Antarctica have a brazier of flames ... for a water god.

I think the Neptune Armor could be reworked. I like the skulls, and as I've said before, I think there's a story there. Reading that again, I see it claims Kalen as the founder of Namor's ruling family, instead of Kamuu. Hadn't noticed that before.

Soooo, do you see Suma-Ket teaming up with the Swift Tide? Not a good thing for Namor or the Atlanteans.

[Doombot]

Well, if we are talking about grandeur ... Neptune could use a make over too. I really do not like the old bearded geezer in a robe. If I were a god, I certainly would be my best, most imposing self. But you know those places and buildings are never set in stone. Most artists and writers ignore what's come before. Though I do find it interesting that both the Grotto shrine and the one in Antarctica have a brazier of flames ... for a water god.

I think the Neptune Armor could be reworked. I like the skulls, and as I've said before, I think there's a story there. Reading that again, I see it claims Kalen as the founder of Namor's ruling family, instead of Kamuu. Hadn't noticed that before.

Soooo, do you see Suma-Ket teaming up with the Swift Tide? Not a good thing for Namor or the Atlanteans.

Kidding aside, I do find the idea of undersea flames a cool mystical image. I'd like some story to actually explain them, even in passing.

Somewhere in time, I'm not sure where exactly, the Western idea or concept of the great patriarchal leader/father/king, became an older man with a long white beard. There's many reasons for this, the wisdom of advanced age etc, but anyone taking 5 minutes to look back at actual Greek art of these Gods will quickly notice, the Greeks themselves saw these Gods as mature, but still much more youthful and full of power. Zeus and Poseidon are usually depicted with dark beards and hair, usually in powerful poses. Also, the Olympians wee seen as the "younger" generation of Gods, having revolted and usurped their parents generation. The change into the "older, wiser" white bearded Gods, may have started to show up during the Renaissance with imagery like Michelangelo's "Creation of Adam" and his depiction of the biblical God. Even in the Middle Ages, so many saints and important religious men were illustrated with long white beards. In antiquity though, I can't think of any old white bearded gods being illustrated, they're much more dynamic and youthful. The influence of Odin in European thought is also something I believe added to this, as Odin particularly in his Wanderer/Traveler persona, is thought by many the origin of figures like Father Christmas, which would become Saint Nick/Santa Claus.

Anyway, that was a bloated way of just saying, yes I agree with you about Neptune lol.

Poseidon pursuing the maiden Anymone - circa 425-475 BC


I don't want Suma-Ket teaming up with the Swift Tide, or anyone else, as I hate villains or characters in comics always teaming up, as if the world is that small and all Namor's villains would know each other. Plus I cannot see Suma-Ket teaming with anyone, unless it was some sort of ploy. If I had to connect them, I would have the Unforgotten Stone be an artifact Ket himself had planted in hopes of corrupting or enslaving others to his will, and an attempt to use them to once again gain access to the mortal world and out of the Grey Waters.

[Reviresco]

Kidding aside, I do find the idea of undersea flames a cool mystical image. I'd like some story to actually explain them, even in passing.

Oh, I like them too. IIRC, a big part of the sacrifice was burning it and the smoke floating up to the gods in heaven / Olympia. And Poseidon was not originally a water god. He became one, when he and Zeus and Hades created their spheres of influences / domains. I think the undersea flames probably derive from that, i.e. his non-water breathing life. Which is an interesting thought ... I mean, the older gods are actually more intrinsically ocean, instead of a personification. Heck, even Namor and the Atlanteans are more ocean.

Somewhere in time, I'm not sure where exactly, the Western idea or concept of the great patriarchal leader/father/king, became an older man with a long white beard. There's many reasons for this, the wisdom of advanced age etc, but anyone taking 5 minutes to look back at actual Greek art of these Gods will quickly notice, the Greeks themselves saw these Gods as mature, but still much more youthful and full of power. Zeus and Poseidon are usually depicted with dark beards and hair, usually in powerful poses. Also, the Olympians wee seen as the "younger" generation of Gods, having revolted and usurped their parents generation. The change into the "older, wiser" white bearded Gods, may have started to show up during the Renaissance with imagery like Michelangelo's "Creation of Adam" and his depiction of the biblical God. Even in the Middle Ages, so many saints and important religious men were illustrated with long white beards. In antiquity though, I can't think of any old white bearded gods being illustrated, they're much more dynamic and youthful. The influence of Odin in European thought is also something I believe added to this, as Odin particularly in his Wanderer/Traveler persona, is thought by many the origin of figures like Father Christmas, which would become Saint Nick/Santa Claus.

Anyway, that was a bloated way of just saying, yes I agree with you about Neptune lol.

Poseidon pursuing the maiden Anymone - circa 425-475 BC

Heh. Could the imagery be anymore obvious. ;p

Yeah, I'm not sure when the wise old man motif started. I think it was earlier, from medieval Jewish and Christian manuscripts maybe, where you have Moses and Abraham portrayed as old wise men ... and perhaps in Christian books, where you also had differentiate between Jesus and God. Odin could have definitely been assimilated also. But the classical world were more about portraying people in their prime.

I don't want Suma-Ket teaming up with the Swift Tide, or anyone else, as I hate villains or characters in comics always teaming up, as if the world is that small and all Namor's villains would know each other. Plus I cannot see Suma-Ket teaming with anyone, unless it was some sort of ploy. If I had to connect them, I would have the Unforgotten Stone be an artifact Ket himself had planted in hopes of corrupting or enslaving others to his will, and an attempt to use them to once again gain access to the mortal world and out of the Grey Waters.

Ah, similar to what you proposed earlier, where Suma-Ket is secretly moving pieces, like the Swift Tide, against Namor before actually appearing himself.

What the heck was that Unforgotten Stone supposed to be? Was it supposed to be something related to Knull?

Poor Suma-Ket. His blood key to the release him from the prison is getting more and more rare. I mean, with the retcons, does Namora and Nita count?

[Reviresco]

Writing this super quick as I'm off for a few days and headed to the seaside but this convo is too interesting for me to wait to get back to my laptop.

I do think Namor is religious and very pious as a character in Namor, the Sub-Mariner (1990) Annual 2, Neptune saves Namor, who is trapped in Rick Jones's body, and states "You're gratitude pleases me, Namor. Despite all your brashness you always accorded me the proper respect" , so it's not so much about Faith and adhering to an organized religion but like you all said it's about respect/worship. In that comic Neptune also talks about how he had to snatch Namor from hades and goes on to say that all the Atlanteans worship Neptune so he won't let harm befall Namor. So I do think Namor is religious in his own way.

Well, the Atlantean worshipers and Namor probably tell Neptune that ALL Atlanteans worship him, but we know, there are plenty of gods in the sea. ;p I wonder ... if for the Atlanteans, it isn't like the Kami in Japan? Where you have little gods, or spirits, for many natural things. Though, the Atlanteans probably actually see their sea Kami.

It is different than what Christians think of as far as religion. Like I've said before, faith isn't really necessary, because you KNOW Neptune exists, you've talked to him. Even better, it must be GREAT to know your god actually thinks you are special and will show up in person and save your butt. No wonder Namor's arrogant. His god has told him he IS the stuff. LOL!

I'm trying to remember if Namor has never not been respectful to Neptune. I think the only time might have been in that Avengers story, Assault on Olympus, and even then it wasn't disrespectful, but definitely disappointed. I'd have to read it again, it's been a while.

After that hilarious Pak and Van Lente story, Amazons vs Atlantis, I had played around with a story idea that Neptune decided to recover and relearn the mortal world, with Namor and Namora as his guides. It just moved into silly really fast, but boy Namor's patience and ... piety was tested. And it WAS a younger, very much the Greek Myths Neptune in his prime, which was problematic for Namora ... and sometimes Namor. LOL!


Have a good trip! We want pics if you see Namor by the seaside.

[Reviresco]

[center]Yeah! I still remember. Here's proof...

For what it's worth, still love the Jae Lee version of Neptune's Champion

Thanks for the pics, K7P5V! It was nice to have those references for the discussion. Also reminded me of things I had forgotten or didn't notice before. Like I thought the prophecy concerning Namor saving his people and the planet was in this scene, but apparently, this is the second time Namor talked to Neptune in a couple of issues??? Neptune was really looking out for Namor.

I love the idea of the Neptune Armor, but I do think it needs an upgrade. It's very 90s extreme. But that Jae Lee art still hits you in the face.

[K7P5V]

I'm trying to remember if Namor has never not been respectful to Neptune. I think the only time might have been in that Avengers story, Assault on Olympus, and even then it wasn't disrespectful, but definitely disappointed. I'd have to read it again, it's been a while.

I know, right?! Even Neptune himself wasn't too thrilled after capturing Namor (T_T)

Thanks for the pics, K7P5V! It was nice to have those references for the discussion. Also reminded me of things I had forgotten or didn't notice before. Like I thought the prophecy concerning Namor saving his people and the planet was in this scene, but apparently, this is the second time Namor talked to Neptune in a couple of issues??? Neptune was really looking out for Namor.

I love the idea of the Neptune Armor, but I do think it needs an upgrade. It's very 90s extreme. But that Jae Lee art still hits you in the face.

You're welcome! I'm glad you noticed. No matter what decade or how much time has passed, the artistry from Jae Lee can never be surpassed (IMHO):

[Doombot]

Oh, I like them too. IIRC, a big part of the sacrifice was burning it and the smoke floating up to the gods in heaven / Olympia. And Poseidon was not originally a water god. He became one, when he and Zeus and Hades created their spheres of influences / domains. I think the undersea flames probably derive from that, i.e. his non-water breathing life. Which is an interesting thought ... I mean, the older gods are actually more intrinsically ocean, instead of a personification. Heck, even Namor and the Atlanteans are more ocean.

Right. One of the main clues that Poseidon was not only not born a Sea God in the myths, but most likely did not originate as a Sea God at all in the foggy depths of time, was that he is deeply connected to horses. He may have come from an earlier time and people. His divine connection to horses was so strong that at some point he was given water horses in the form of the hippocampoi, which I would love to see in a Namor book. Some were winged as well as fish like. Also Pegasus the winged horse, born from the blood of Medusa's severed head, was though to have been a reference to Poseidon having had sex with her before her transformation into a Gorgon, and the reason for her curse.





And yes I agree, the older Gods were much more connected to, or aspects of, the various natural forces they represented. The primordial God of the sea, who is not a "King of the Sea" but is the sea itself, is the Titan Pontos/Pontus. The primordial Titan Oceanus is, ironically, the God of all freshwater, the source of all rivers, lakes, rain, wells and springs. As much as I love Poseidon/Neptune, I really love the concept of these truly ancient primordial Gods, who are barely Gods at all as we understand it, barely aware or interested in the lives of men and other Gods. I would kill for Namor to encounter a being like Pontos, who would be more akin to Dr.Strange meeting Eternity than meeting Neptune. For some desperate reason Namor having to reach out and speak directly with Pontus, forcing him to wake from his true form of the endless ocean to an aspect that Namor could actually speak and reason with for time before receding and fading back into depths, would be amazing.

Ah, similar to what you proposed earlier, where Suma-Ket is secretly moving pieces, like the Swift Tide, against Namor before actually appearing himself.

What the heck was that Unforgotten Stone supposed to be? Was it supposed to be something related to Knull?

Poor Suma-Ket. His blood key to the release him from the prison is getting more and more rare. I mean, with the retcons, does Namora and Nita count?

I suppose you could argue the terms of that original curse have been met, and Ket was released during that arc (only to be killed and sent back). He is now free from the conditions of that original curse and only needs whatever actual mystical strength(s) to once again leave the Grey Waters.

[Reviresco]

Right. One of the main clues that Poseidon was not only not born a Sea God in the myths, but most likely did not originate as a Sea God at all in the foggy depths of time, was that he is deeply connected to horses. He may have come from an earlier time and people. His divine connection to horses was so strong that at some point he was given water horses in the form of the hippocampoi, which I would love to see in a Namor book. Some were winged as well as fish like. Also Pegasus the winged horse, born from the blood of Medusa's severed head, was though to have been a reference to Poseidon having had sex with her before her transformation into a Gorgon, and the reason for her curse.

Those are gorgeous vases! That would be cool! Reminds of the Mignola story, where Namor prayed to Neptune for help him save the animal, and Neptune changed that horse into a large seahorse, rather than a hippocamp.



Yes! It's an interesting connection. Even though people tried equating horses with the whitecaps to tie them to the ocean. And it's interesting ithat Poseidon created the horse in competition with Athena and lost to her creation of the olive tree, i.e. a creature of war, of nomads vs the symbol of peace, a staple of agriculture-- which may hint at that ancient origin.

And yes I agree, the older Gods were much more connected to, or aspects of, the various natural forces they represented. The primordial God of the sea, who is not a "King of the Sea" but is the sea itself, is the Titan Pontos/Pontus. The primordial Titan Oceanus is, ironically, the God of all freshwater, the source of all rivers, lakes, rain, wells and springs. As much as I love Poseidon/Neptune, I really love the concept of these truly ancient primordial Gods, who are barely Gods at all as we understand it, barely aware or interested in the lives of men and other Gods. I would kill for Namor to encounter a being like Pontos, who would be more akin to Dr.Strange meeting Eternity than meeting Neptune. For some desperate reason Namor having to reach out and speak directly with Pontus, forcing him to wake from his true form of the endless ocean to an aspect that Namor could actually speak and reason with for time before receding and fading back into depths, would be amazing.

Well, we did have that Fraction story in Defenders, which was going to somehow connect with is Kirby Engine plot, where Namor and the Atlanteans found the same seal hiding the Nerieds, the daughters of Pontus, so maybe Fraction was heading in that direction, before getting distracted with the Inhumans. But I agree. I'd LOVE some mythic stories involving the old sea gods or personifications. I've always thought Neptune was too 'young' of god for the Atlanteans, who are so much older than the Greek gods in the Marvel history.

I suppose you could argue the terms of that original curse have been met, and Ket was released during that arc (only to be killed and sent back). He is now free from the conditions of that original curse and only needs whatever actual mystical strength(s) to once again leave the Grey Waters.

There's definitely ways to bring Suma-Ket back. But it won't be pretty, since his sacrifices are bloody and numerous.

[Reviresco]

I know, right?! Even Neptune himself wasn't too thrilled with what he had done (T_T)

Yes! That's the one I was thinking about. That last panel about the prophecy not actually happening makes me sad.

You're welcome! I'm glad you noticed. No matter what decade or how much time has passed, the artistry from Jae Lee can never be surpassed (IMHO):

Besides being so pretty, I love the proper admiration and .... fear the narrator pays to Namor here.

"Naked, for all intents and purposes. Nowhere on him a scratch or a wound. Oblivious to the cold that would kill a mere human like myself.

I knew of him as Prince Namor -- but you could see he was a king among men."