All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[Xheight]

Again...

Unless you have got a receipt for that crystal ball that allows you to see folks actual motivations?

There is right around "Zero..." reason for folks to buy into that bit in blue.

If you are trying to take me to task about the ultimate unknowability of human motive you might just as well direct your comments to those that posted the picture and question their ontology.

That you don't points to your bias.

[numberthirty]

you might as well have posted "i don't accept anything that disagrees with my interpertation'

okay, don't change that other people can and will have a different view.

That it is "Different..."?

No big whoop.

The part where they point to motivations that they have no way of actually knowing while attempting to tell folks what they are seeing...?

Completely different thing. Total nonsense.

[PwrdOn]

That might have to do with your overdrawn sensitives to race and species. I don't care what color the illegals are and humanity is accorded to those that conduct themselves as humans. What we are seeing is bestial with a uncaring kind of greed that drives people to get into this country by any means acting as if the laws and obstacles are created by privilege. They aren't btw.

We get it too that Planet is an equally overdrawn analogy on race but I would argue just as sure that it is didactic to the point of absurdity.

If the laws were not racist in origin, then how exactly did this country come to have a white majority despite being halfway around the world from Europe, while all of the immigrants we are trying to keep out just so happen to be black or brown?

In this case it's particularly egregious as the migrants are from Haiti, a country that every likes to point and laugh at for being this hopeless mess that can't seem to govern itself at all, conveniently forgetting how this all came to be. Haiti has a pretty epic history, being the first and only nation ever founded through a slave uprising, and ever since, the US and European powers have colluded to make sure that they will never succeed, lest oppressed black people anywhere else start getting ideas. Does anyone remember that scene from Game of Thrones where Tyrion is explaining that the slavers can't allow Meereen to prosper because that would show that no one needs the masters? Well that actually happened, except that the Haitians didn't have any dragons, so the masters won this one.

[thwhtGuardian]

If you are trying to take me to task about the ultimate unknowability of human motive you might just as well direct your comments to those that posted the picture and question their ontology.

That you don't points to your bias.

It doesn't point to a bias actually...assuming that any and all bipedal hominids you might find to be currently existing on this planet are in fact humans and are thus inherently due the rights accorded to being members of humanity is a bet you're going to win every time not a bias.

[numberthirty]

If you are trying to take me to task about the ultimate unknowability of human motive you might just as well direct your comments to those that posted the picture and question their ontology.

That you don't points to your bias.

While it is not "Money In The Bank..."?

Some of what they have suggested is a reasonable possibility out in "Actual..." reality.

Some of the motivations that you have seemingly been suggesting that you have a seriously clear window into?

Doesn't get withing a country mile of "Reasonable possibility out in 'Actual...' reality..."

[Xheight]

They're not acting bestial...they're just people...desperate people looking for some place better to live, sure, but people none the less and certainly none the less deserving of being treated humanly due to their desperation. And that's a pretty basic tenet of supposed "cultured" society, that we realize those people over there though different than we are in some surface details are none the less actually no different than we are and should be treated accordingly.

But hey, if you're not a fan of the basics of humanity then you do you man...

what I am not a fan of is political constructs that play on emotions of a moment over a larger reality. Calling these people, yes people, desperate is to place their concerns over a world of desperation and the nation-state system which controls migration of peoples. Is not the child picking through a garbage pile in Lagos equally desperate or the political prisoner of HK freedom just as so but these people for no better reason than than being able to make it to the US border get a pass for looking more desperate? That isn't about humanity but support for people who are 'getting over' on a system that is designed to protect what people in this country have built for themselves. What about their humanity? US properity doesn't well up from out of the ground you know or come from Apple and Google stock prices.

[Xheight]

If the laws were not racist in origin, then how exactly did this country come to have a white majority despite being halfway around the world from Europe, while all of the immigrants we are trying to keep out just so happen to be black or brown?

In this case it's particularly egregious as the migrants are from Haiti, a country that every likes to point and laugh at for being this hopeless mess that can't seem to govern itself at all, conveniently forgetting how this all came to be. Haiti has a pretty epic history, being the first and only nation ever founded through a slave uprising, and ever since, the US and European powers have colluded to make sure that they will never succeed, lest oppressed black people anywhere else start getting ideas. Does anyone remember that scene from Game of Thrones where Tyrion is explaining that the slavers can't allow Meereen to prosper because that would show that no one needs the masters? Well that actually happened, except that the Haitians didn't have any dragons, so the masters won this one.

US white anglo saxon majority isn't predicated on laws so your premise seems faulty. Colonization of a part of continent decimated by diseases explains a great deal more about national demographic much in the same way that South African colonization does without the diseases or Australia...

As to Haiti, yes it is interesting but hardly the unified conspiracy you paint it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ian_Revolution

[thwhtGuardian]

what I am not a fan of is political constructs that play on emotions of a moment over a larger reality. Calling these people, yes people, desperate is to place their concerns over a world of desperation and the nation-state system which controls migration of peoples. Is not the child picking through a garbage pile in Lagos equally desperate or the political prisoner of HK freedom just as so but these people for no better reason than than being able to make it to the US border get a pass for looking more desperate? That isn't about humanity but support for people who are 'getting over' on a system that is designed to protect what people in this country have built for themselves. What about their humanity? US properity doesn't well up from out of the ground you know or come from Apple and Google stock prices.

I don't see this as being placed above any other suffering but that's a nice strawman you've built there and just in time for Halloween too.. however, I do see you as back tracking on describing them as being other than people though which I guess is an improvement.

[PwrdOn]

US white anglo saxon majority isn't predicated on laws so your premise seems faulty. Colonization of a part of continent decimated by diseases explains a great deal more about national demographic much in the same way that South African colonization does without the diseases or Australia...

As to Haiti, yes it is interesting but hardly the unified conspiracy you paint it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ian_Revolution

You think all of those Irish and Italian immigrants who turned up to Ellis Island made sure to go through a formal application process and got their paperwork straight before they set sail? I hate to break it to you, but only about 7% of the population in the US claims "Anglo Saxon" ancestry, which make them a small minority even amongst whites. The rest are all "ethnics" who were compelled to assimilate into Anglo society, forgetting most of their original language and culture along the way - don't expect the guys from Jersey Shore to start expounding on the deeper meaning of Dante's Inferno any time soon. Some might even call such a process of forcible integration genocide....

[babyblob]

I dont know as much about immigration or the reason some of the 3rd world countries and Latin American countries are in the state they are in.

But I have a couple thoughts. Haiti has suffered a murdered president, a major earthquake and a hurricane. There are counties in South America that have an insane amount of violence, infrastructure that is a mess, no real access to health care. What is wrong with people from those nations wanting what they think will be a better life in America. They are not criminals, they are people who want a petty shot at having a good life. Why should they be told no just because of where they were born? America was founded on white people from other countries coming here and killing of the native people and stealing their land through violence and trickery all in the name of freedom. And now we claim hardcore ownership to this country and how dare anyone else come here.

I dont see why they are thrown into these cages and processing centers that are Hell to live in. At least from the photos and videos.

We supply our criminals with some pretty good halfway houses to help them get back into society after prison. (I know I lived in one for close to 8 months.) I know they are not all great and some are pretty damn bad but there are many that give a good chance.

So why do we throw immigrants into these processing centers and just forget about them? Why cant we build good facilities where they can live and help get services like access to legal aide to help them process their applications to stay in the country? Help them with things they will need to adjust to life in America? I dont know there just has to be a better way then running people down on horseback and shoving kids into cages away from their parents. Maybe if we didnt make it so hard to get here there wouldnt be this mess we are in now.

I have no idea how to fix it. maybe my little thought here seems a bit naïve. I know that in our current political climate that things will take a long time if ever to fix but I am just a bit frustrated at times.

[Tendrin]

You think all of those Irish and Italian immigrants who turned up to Ellis Island made sure to go through a formal application process and got their paperwork straight before they set sail? I hate to break it to you, but only about 7% of the population in the US claims "Anglo Saxon" ancestry, which make them a small minority even amongst whites. The rest are all "ethnics" who were compelled to assimilate into Anglo society, forgetting most of their original language and culture along the way - don't expect the guys from Jersey Shore to start expounding on the deeper meaning of Dante's Inferno any time soon. Some might even call such a process of forcible integration genocide....

No. What the British did to the Irish in Ireland could be, though. I mean, what, with the Irish language nearly getting wiped out, in addition to the rest of their genocidal policies. <3

A combination of the introduction of state funded, though predominantly denominationally Church delivered, primary education (the 'National Schools'), from 1831, in which Irish was omitted from the curriculum till 1878, and only then added as a curiosity, to be learnt after English, Latin, Greek and French,[15][16] and in the absence of an authorised Irish Catholic bible (An Biobla Naofa) before 1981,[17] resulting in instruction primarily in English, or Latin. The National Schools run by the Roman Catholic Church discouraged its use until about 1890.

[Xheight]

I don't see this as being placed above any other suffering but that's a nice strawman you've built there and just in time for Halloween too.. however, I do see you as back tracking on describing them as being other than people though which I guess is an improvement.

It is your analogy which went so far as to dehumanize whereas bestial suggests dispensing with reasoning and order. It is not a strawman to point out that nation states are our only way of regulating and accounting for human rights. Even the UN recognizes National Sovereignty (for now) as the mechanism of controlling migration. Economic globalization is the real push for open borders, and a primary means of destroying the barriers to international capital, not only economically, but socially, culturally and ethnically.

[Xheight]

You think all of those Irish and Italian immigrants who turned up to Ellis Island made sure to go through a formal application process and got their paperwork straight before they set sail? I hate to break it to you, but only about 7% of the population in the US claims "Anglo Saxon" ancestry, which make them a small minority even amongst whites. The rest are all "ethnics" who were compelled to assimilate into Anglo society, forgetting most of their original language and culture along the way - don't expect the guys from Jersey Shore to start expounding on the deeper meaning of Dante's Inferno any time soon. Some might even call such a process of forcible integration genocide....

That does't preclude the template of America being a land of opportunity for all white europeans at the time when America needed a larger population and cheap labor. It is the ahistorical argument that claims that immigration is an ongoing necessity.

[thwhtGuardian]

It is your analogy which went so far as to dehumanize whereas bestial suggests dispensing with reasoning and order. It is not a strawman to point out that nation states are our only way of regulating and accounting for human rights. Even the UN recognizes National Sovereignty (for now) as the mechanism of controlling migration. Economic globalization is the real push for open borders, and a primary means of destroying the barriers to international capital, not only economically, but socially, culturally and ethnically.

There is nothing dehumanizing about recognizing that we are all the same and should all be treated with respect...

[PwrdOn]

No. What the British did to the Irish in Ireland could be, though. I mean, what, with the Irish language nearly getting wiped out, in addition to the rest of their genocidal policies. <3

The details of the policy don't matter as much as the results in practice though. While Irish culture was suppressed under British rule, they did retain a distinctive identity that continues to the present day, and Ireland remains a cultural powerhouse far out of proportion to its size and population. Meanwhile, Irish-Americans are almost entirely assimilated into the mainstream, no one aside from a tiny handful of language nerds has any inkling of how to speak Gaelic, and the general conception of Irish culture doesn't go far beyond drinking, loose women, and fighting leprechauns. So who are the real victims here, the supposedly perpetually oppressed Irish, or the economically powerful but culturally bankrupt Irish-Americans?

That does't preclude the template of America being a land of opportunity for all white europeans at the time when America needed a larger population and cheap labor. It is the ahistorical argument that claims that immigration is an ongoing necessity.

If cheap labor was the goal, then bringing in European workers wouldn't be any more cost effective in the 19th century than in the 16th, when hiring white laborers was so ruinously expensive for plantation owners that they turned to slavery as a cheaper alternative. By the late 1800s, there were plenty of newly freed blacks looking to move to northern industrial towns to find work, and an endless supply of Mexican workers from just across the border to do all manner of dirty jobs out west. Of course, the cheapest source of labor came from China, and in fact they were paid so little that eventually a law was passed specifically barring the Chinese from entering the country, which wasn't repealed until 1943 and large scale immigration from China did not really resume until the 1990s.

And it's not like European immigrants had any kind of cultural affinity to America that would help them assimilate into society more easily either. Most of them came from poor, agrarian societies on the fringes of the continent and didn't have any skills that translated particularly well to the burgeoning industrial economy of the US. Most also did not speak English, stuck to their own immigrant enclaves, and generally avoided any interaction with "native" Americans, as assimilation was usually a slow, generational process. The ONLY reason this migration was tolerated was because the race-obsessed America of the 19th century insisted on bringing in as many Europeans as possible in order to maintain a white majority nation and prevent the country from being overwhelmed by the "alien races" who populate most of the Western hemisphere.