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  1. #3166
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    But, I think she IS leading. Like, every appearance she’s made in the HiXmen titles, whether she is “captain” or whatever or not, she’s leading.

    Quit the Quiet Council, restart the X-Men she wants, and save the day from Apocalypse’s brood and Saturnyne — all in a day’s work for this Jean.

    This Jean in the X titles is portrayed as such the boss, the matriarch of the X-Men. I don’t see how she stops leading at this point in the Krakoan story arc. This Jean is in charge.
    She was the leader of a team on X-Men Red and then one of the overall X-Men leaders in Disassembled. Then in Krakoa there was no official team of X-Men until now, and in X-Force she wasn't a leader. She had a political position, which was nice but was shared with many others rather than something special to her, and didn't give her a lead role in a book. And then she lost that too.

    It does seem like she's really the co-leader in X-Men though, which is why I said she wasn't rather than isn't.

  2. #3167
    BANNED Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    I mean...it was always going to be unrealistic to expect a big Jean story.

    Her role is what it is lol.
    Yes, I lost the hope for it long time ago. X-men Red and Uncanny Dissassembled feel like collective dream

  3. #3168
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    Jean barely did any leading. I think the best case was the last issue of X-force that she lead the team in the absence of the leaders.

    Jean didn't quit the quiet council to stat the x-men, it was Scott initiative that she even said that she was waiting on him to do it. And she quit the council because Scott made a rule that people can't be on the council and on the x-men team
    Scott didnt make up that rule; they did it together. It didnt make sense for her to take the position she did while still being beholden to control by the QC. Its a conflict of interest. She wants to speak and act for the people; not the QC

  4. #3169
    Mighty Member Brian B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    ...It does seem like she's really the co-leader in X-Men though, which is why I said she wasn't rather than isn't.
    She seems like she is lead or co-lead in every appearance she makes these days. She’s the queen of X. She is giving the orders these days. That’s why I say, this feel like Jean 2.0 to me. She’s a boss now. She’s not the damsel in distress. If you think about it, even during the Dark Phoenix days and its endless re-hashing, that’s what she was — a victim to her own Id. But not anymore. Jean doesn’t feel like a victim to me, but instead reads as one of the leaders of whatever team she is on.

  5. #3170
    Astonishing Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    She seems like she is lead or co-lead in every appearance she makes these days. She’s the queen of X. She is giving the orders these days. That’s why I say, this feel like Jean 2.0 to me. She’s a boss now. She’s not the damsel in distress. If you think about it, even during the Dark Phoenix days and its endless re-hashing, that’s what she was — a victim to her own Id. But not anymore. Jean doesn’t feel like a victim to me, but instead reads as one of the leaders of whatever team she is on.
    I'm sorry, but we'll have to disagree here, Brian. And, please, know that I’m writing in a respectful way.

    She fought Dark Phoenix corruption every step of the way. She killed herself to prevent it from ever perpetrating an atrocity again.

    The Phoenix period started with her heroic action of piloting the space bus back to Earth and crying for help because she wanted to live (so she could save her friends' lives). And it ended with her heroic action of not allowing the Force, through her, to destroy anything ever again, regardless of her willingness to live.

    This is not a victim. This is a hero from start to finish.
    Last edited by Grinning Soul; 05-17-2021 at 03:23 PM.

  6. #3171
    BANNED Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Scott didnt make up that rule; they did it together. It didnt make sense for her to take the position she did while still being beholden to control by the QC. Its a conflict of interest. She wants to speak and act for the people; not the QC
    He said that, not her. She was a bit conflicted about staying on Council.

  7. #3172
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I don't worry about this book only, but the long-term perception of the character.

    Just the other day I read someone saying that Jean was the worst host of the Phoenix. That all she did was changing clothes and becoming Dark Phoenix.

    I know! How do you even argue with these people?
    The thing is that they aren't objectively incorrect.

    When Jean become the Phoenix John Byrne came in and hated it so he convinced Claremont that she needed to go dark, drew in the planet of the D'Bari being inhabited which caused Phoenix to commit genocide and Jim Shooter to demand that she get punished and it led to her ending up dead. Compare that to Rachel who was the Phoenix that Claremont wanted Jean to be for so long, and wielded the Phoenix Force with no issue in the 80s and early 90s, and then again in the mid-00s even if it was just a part of it. Compare that to Quentin who has consistently been shown to be in charge of the Phoenix Force when he shows up with it.

    Jean handled the Phoenix Force well and consistently in Morrison's run and the latter part of Endsong, but most people tend to not realize that Jean was the one in control in Morrison's run or that she had it the entire time. Altogether between Claremont's run and Morrison's run Jean only successfully controlled the Phoenix for five or six years. The other time that she was Phoenix, on her own, she didn't have the Phoenix Force and was working off of her own power for the longest even if Kelly, Seagle, and Claremont wanted to give it back to her. She also owned the PF in Resurrection but in doing so she forced it to leave and told it goodbye.

    Jean as Phoenix is iconic, but in comics it's never been given a fair shake for longer than a few years at a time. And that sucks. In outside media Jean often owns the Phoenix moniker and the Phoenix Force itself; to people Jean is Phoenix and will always be in charge of the Phoenix eventually but what's on the page doesn't define that.

    In a way that's why Jean has been able to flourish wholesale since Phoenix Resurrection. She doesn't have the PF. But I also think that we're in a day and age where if Jean were to be Phoenix and have the Phoenix Force, she wouldn't immediately have to die or go dark or what have you. She's gotten cool feats and moments on her own but it's disappointing that Rosenberg had her send the Phoenix away and Ketchum allowed it to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    He said that, not her. She was a bit conflicted about staying on Council.
    No she wasn't. She gave them the option of whether or not that was true because she was she was going to go anyway, and then when they decided that more QC members couldn't put their lives in jeopardy that way, she was immediately out. That was her call. On her own.

    Was it discussed beforehand? Maybe. But do I think Scott held her hand or made her come to that decision? Hell no.
    "We come into this world alone and we leave the same way. The time we spent in between - time spent alive, sharing, learning together... is all that makes life worth living." - Jean Grey

  8. #3173
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    He said that, not her. She was a bit conflicted about staying on Council.
    Actually Jean spoke for herself but even if she didnt, neither was blindsided by what was said when they met with Xavier and Magneto bc they had had the conversation beforehand. The thing that some people are having a hard time grasping this era is that Jean and Scott are working together and are making moves as a unit. He doesnt control her, nor does she control him

  9. #3174
    Mighty Member Brian B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I'm sorry, but we'll have to disagree here, Brian. And, please, know that I’m writing in a respectful way.

    She fought Dark Phoenix corruption every step of the way. She killed herself to prevent it from ever perpetrating an atrocity again.

    The Phoenix period started with her heroic action of piloting the space bus back to Earth and crying for help because she wanted to live (so she could save her friends' lives). And it ended with her heroic action of not allowing the Force, through her, to destroy anything ever again, regardless of her willingness to live.

    This is not a victim. This is a hero from start to finish.
    But why couldn’t she handle the power? Can’t a woman handle power without it corrupting her? Oh, sure, it’s been retconned as Phoenix, not Jean, but whatever. They also say it’s all one integrated personality now. So, it can’t be totally separate anymore.

    Yes, saving the shuttle was an act of strength. Same with the M’Kraan Crystal. But then, after that? I think Marvel allowed her to be portrayed over and over as a damsel in distress. She couldn’t even handle her own powers. She had to kill herself as a way out. How ridiculous is that?

    I don’t think there’s any fixing that. You have to just read it for what it is and accept that there’s some pretty chauvinistic views in there.

    But this current iteration of Jean seems strong to me, a born leader.
    Last edited by Brian B; 05-17-2021 at 03:34 PM.

  10. #3175
    BANNED Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Actually Jean spoke for herself but even if she didnt, neither was blindsided by what was said when they met with Xavier and Magneto bc they had had the conversation beforehand. The thing that some people are having a hard time grasping this era is that Jean and Scott are working together and are making moves as a unit. He doesnt control her, nor does she control him
    If they are working together, they have to show it. All we see is Scott making moves and she following him.

    She need a lot more atitude and good characterizatio for it to work


    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    But why couldn’t she handle the power? Can’t a woman handle power without it corrupting her? Oh, sure, it’s been retconned as Phoenix, not Jean, but whatever. They also say it’s all one integrated personality now. So, it can’t be totally separate anymore.

    Yes, saving the shuttle was an act of strength. Same with the M’Kraan Crystal. But then, after that? I think Marvel allowed her to be portrayed over and over as a damsel in distress. She couldn’t even handle her own powers. She had to kill herself as a way out. How ridiculous is that?

    I don’t think there’s any fixing that. You have to just read it for what it is and accept that there’s some pretty chauvinistic views in there.

    But this current iteration of Jean seems strong to me, a born leader.
    Jean wasn't corrupted by the power, she was corrupted by bad mutants

    I don't think anything on this jean is a born leader lOL
    Last edited by Rang10; 05-17-2021 at 03:36 PM.

  11. #3176
    Astonishing Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    The thing is that they aren't objectively incorrect.
    She saved the whole universe during the Phoenix Saga...

  12. #3177
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    If they are working together, they have to show it. All we see is Scott making moves and she following him.
    ???? Jean was present and vocal in every scene dealing with the formation of the new X-men team

  13. #3178
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    She saved the whole universe during the Phoenix Saga...
    I know that. You know that. But because of Byrne that era is defined by her going Dark and she was never given a chance to do anything with the PF like that again, really. Meanwhile Rachel fought the Beyonder to a standstill and fixed the entire timestream continuum, on top of other things.
    "We come into this world alone and we leave the same way. The time we spent in between - time spent alive, sharing, learning together... is all that makes life worth living." - Jean Grey

  14. #3179
    BANNED Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    ???? Jean was present and vocal in every scene dealing with the formation of the new X-men team
    She completely let on Scott the decision to start X-men. She even said that she was waiting on him. That is not being vocal or having a atitude. it is basically being a glorified girlfriend

  15. #3180
    Astonishing Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    I know that. You know that. But because of Byrne that era is defined by her going Dark and she was never given a chance to do anything with the PF like that again, really. Meanwhile Rachel fought the Beyonder to a standstill and fixed the entire timestream continuum, on top of other things.
    But that was exactly my point, my friend: perception.

    Unfortunately, it's not about actual facts. If people can ignore saving the whole universe, what do you think they'll say about her role in Krakoa's society?

    That's what worries me about this Hickman run. Because I think it will be a remarkable moment for the X-Men, regardless of how I feel about it. And I don't want future readers to repeat stupid stuff about Jean in the future because her role now - though theoretically important - didn't make her character particularly noteworthy. In other words, there was nothing unique about her role.

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