Should Wanda Maximoff (Scarlet Witch stand trial for House of M ?

[Ferro]

tbh her current presence in comics is payback enough, grudges/spite/pettyness aside

[gurkle]

I feel like Hickman, probably accidentally, took the fun out of hating her by making her a pathetic loser without a friend in the world.

In the Uncanny Avengers era it was fun to hate her because she had a big part in a major book, was arrogant and bitchy about what she did, and characters who called her out were portrayed as the unreasonable ones.

Basically both Wanda fans and haters have a shared interest in getting her back into an Avengers ongoing and having her reconnect with her friends, because only then will it be fun to love her or hate her.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Ugh I deleted just as I finsihed but...
Synthezoid is not a race...more like a brand. There's none of the weight of being an actual minority that comes with being a Synthezoid.
Martian Manhunter would get a pass....as he regularly takes on minority personas and is ya know a biological being. I get that the androids are alive...but so are plants. But expecting a ficus to return your love is just reeeeaching

Equating what sort of "race" of android Vision is with branding. Really?



People negatively judging another's dating preference based on what race they are is a huge thing when it comes to bi-racial couples. Marvel hasn't been shy about this metaphor, it's so potent comic comic readers buy into it to insult Wanda. J'onn isn't doing anything different to what Vision is, they're both not human the fact Vision is an android is is ancient and once again being used against him to devalue his agency as a person in fiction. This is comics, people aren't just human. No, the argument here is that Vision isn't alive and Wanda is devaluing herself by having a relationship with him. Because he's not her own kind. Read more comics with Vision in them.

lol Cause it seems like a pretty easy leap. Wanda literally tricked herself into believing she had given birth to twins. Theres stuff from their first limited series that is definitely suspect. Sooo It wouldn't be shocking to find out she had been manipulating the 'Happy Father' Just ignore the story stemming from her manipulating her friends and family?
OoooooK

Only to those who haven't read many comics with Vision or their relationship. Ignoring the context of those events as if Wanda just had a normal mental break down when there's a whole lot of more going on in her life than that. Like being possessed by an elder god. Please brush up on Marvel canon, that actually happened. It's why we have Billy and Speed. Speculation based on nothing more than hating Wanda because reasons.

Vision doesnt have genitalia, I doubt forreal spreading his nonexistent seed is a big priority to him. He's a machine who miiight be a lil more durable than humans so his time table wouldnt even be the same. He was alive for how many minutes before Wanda snatched him up. Wanda has had a healthy number of romanticships. Buuut How many organic chicks has Vision dated since then? Why isnt he cruising the Wiccan Bars tryna magick up the kids he is striving to create. The more I think about it It seems like Wanda is manipulating him. Which is just another thing to add to all the fvcked up stuff Wanda does.

Vision wanted to be human so much he built his own wife and kids in Tom King's series. And you've moved the goal posts, originally the problem was that he was white so he couldn't be a minority and now he's a problem because of his biology? Like he can't get around that in Marvel? A world where magic and technology exists that may as well be magic to us. Don't erase his personality like he hasn't got one. Blaming Wanda for manipulating him is coming off as very misogynistic. Back then she wasn't even that powerful, anyway. Maybe that's how Selene does it but we're talking about Wanda.

Yeah yeaaaars ago. not that it negates her being a minority but for example before the retcon I wouldn't say she was being treated as not human and instead a mutant menace.

Still negating her experience as a minority. How many X-men were chased out of town with torches and pitchforks only to be saved by someone who blackmailed them into being terrorists and who abused them so badly in damaged them for life? Even when she joined up with mutants her life was hell.

Yeah dude Its been retconned sooo now they do.

John Byrne's retcon hasn't been relevant in years.

No Im saying that hamfist racial discrimination as big part of her narrative is a choice. But We know for a fact before the retcon she was more accepted than 99% of other mutants and hardly felt any of the bigotry mutants face

Her life being destroyed for years being a mutant, and the attacks by her own brother who hated her dating Vision because Vision wasn't the same sort of species isn't enough to be accepted as a minority? No. This does illuminate how Bobbi da Costa and Cannonball being Avengers would make them "hatable" to the X-fandom by that stance, however. But they're not. Why is that?



What retcon? The Byrne one?

Ehhh I don't think theres a large audience amped to read about Wanda passing the blame to yet ANOTHER person

Because if there's anyone to blame it's Wanda, forget anyone else taking responsibility - especially when they're men. Wanda has to take that burden herself forever, simply because Quicksilver torpedoed her chance to join the X-men when they left the Brotherhood.

[Ferro]

I feel like Hickman, probably accidentally, took the fun out of hating her by making her a pathetic loser without a friend in the world.

In the Uncanny Avengers era it was fun to hate her because she had a big part in a major book, was arrogant and bitchy about what she did, and characters who called her out were portrayed as the unreasonable ones.

Basically both Wanda fans and haters have a shared interest in getting her back into an Avengers ongoing and having her reconnect with her friends, because only then will it be fun to love her or hate her.

Hes the x-men writer, for many years wanda was absolved and protected from any consequences or acountabiity from the xmen, because as you said she was allowed to be a lady and have an army of avengers protecting her and claiming that she was inocent and redeemed, as the x-men were shown as unresonable villains because they didnt immediatly offer wonza her "Redemption", but it didnt matter because she was a hero even when cyclops and others were reduced to terrorist status.
She caused an entire saga of pain and destruction for dozens of characters, then managed to be painted as a hero in the conclusion of said story arch when the victims of her actions were reduced to villains.
So honestly having recently reread that era and how the narrative made sure to protect wanda on the virtue that shes an avenger, and the fact the reread took two weeks, I honestly dont care about wanda being shitted on because the x-men as a whole had a a decade of that

Now the shoe is on the other side and its time for an x-men writer to adress an x-men story and its main villain on its own terms thinking only of whats good for the mutants, not what's good for one washed up avenger only zub seems interested to use.

Sorry that your favorite character is being roasted, she pratically caused 7 years of near apocalyptic extinction stories and you cant expect an x-men writer to just ignore hundreds of issues.

[BroHomo]

Hes the x-men writer, for many years wanda was absolved and protected from any consequences or acountabiity from the xmen, because as you said she was allowed to be a lady and have an army of avengers protecting her and claiming that she was inocent and redeemed, as the x-men were shown as unresonable villains because they didnt immediatly offer wonza her "Redemption", but it didnt matter because she was a hero even when cyclops and others were reduced to terrorist status.
She caused an entire saga of pain and destruction for dozens of characters, then managed to be painted as a hero in the conclusion of said story arch when the victims of her actions were reduced to villains.
So honestly having recently reread that era and how the narrative made sure to protect wanda on the virtue that shes an avenger, and the fact the reread took two weeks, I honestly dont care about wanda being shitted on because the x-men as a whole had a a decade of that

Now the shoe is on the other side and its time for an x-men writer to adress an x-men story and its main villain on its own terms thinking only of whats good for the mutants, not what's good for one washed up avenger only zub seems interested to use.

Sorry that your favorite character is being roasted, she pratically caused 7 years of near apocalyptic extinction stories and you cant expect an x-men writer to just ignore hundreds of issues.

YAS!Ferro! Soooo all this!!

[gurkle]

Hes the x-men writer, for many years wanda was absolved and protected from any consequences or acountabiity from the xmen, because as you said she was allowed to be a lady and have an army of avengers protecting her and claiming that she was inocent and redeemed, as the x-men were shown as unresonable villains because they didnt immediatly offer wonza her "Redemption", but it didnt matter because she was a hero even when cyclops and others were reduced to terrorist status.
She caused an entire saga of pain and destruction for dozens of characters, then managed to be painted as a hero in the conclusion of said story arch when the victims of her actions were reduced to villains.
So honestly having recently reread that era and how the narrative made sure to protect wanda on the virtue that shes an avenger, and the fact the reread took two weeks, I honestly dont care about wanda being shitted on because the x-men as a whole had a a decade of that.

As you know, I see it differently rereading that era: Wanda was relentlessly shitted on by everyone. In Bendis's Avengers and the X-Men books she was talked about constantly and always as a terrible person who snapped and wiped out a race just to get revenge on her dad. She wasn't in the comics but she was a constant presence, and no writer even thought to have a character doubt that she was evil. So we already had years and years of writers caring only about the mutants and not at all about what they were doing to my favorite character, and the mutants have moved past it, but Wanda hasn't really been allowed to.

(When "Children's Crusade" begins there's a lampshade hung on this because Wiccan's first reaction upon hearing of HoM is "who really did it?" and is shocked to learn that the Avengers dismiss Wanda as a murderer and don't even want to find her (because then they might have to kill her). Like what kind of "friends" just assume their friend is a mass murderer in a world where possession and mind control happen every single day?)

If you compare it to Cyclops after AvX there's just no comparison as to how much better Cyclops was treated: not only was he in comics, unlike Wanda, but it was very clear (until the Inhumans push era anyway) that anyone who thought he was a villain was wrong.

I don't even need that with Wanda though, I just am tired of this thing where she only shows up to get shat on, because we already had close to a decade of that.

I also don't really get why she must be held responsible for the 7 years of near-apocalyptic extinction stories, given that the stories are exactly the same if the blame is shifted to someone or something else. Those stories never needed to be Wanda's fault and would have been exactly the same if the whole thing had been caused by a sexy lamp.

[Veitha]

As you know, I see it differently rereading that era: Wanda was relentlessly shitted on by everyone. In Bendis's Avengers and the X-Men books she was talked about constantly and always as a terrible person who snapped and wiped out a race just to get revenge on her dad.

I mean... the race that got wiped out might have a strong reaction towards the woman who wiped them out. Especially considering what the remaining members of said race were going through at the time because of said wiping out.

[gurkle]

I mean... the race that got wiped out might have a strong reaction towards the woman who wiped them out. Especially considering what the remaining members of said race were going through at the time because of said wiping out.

I don't blame the X-Men writers for writing that way (I do blame Bendis because the Avengers office was in charge of her eventual comeback and he did everything in his power to portray her as someone who could never be a hero again). But you can see how fans of a character feel when comics are constantly, relentlessly talking about her as an irredeemable villain and no characters stick up for her and she's not allowed in comics to answer back.

I guess it comes back to the question of whether those years of being banned from comics and never stuck up for is "punishment" for the character. Her fans obviously think so, but it's also true that in-story she hasn't been "punished" for the Decimation because she was never around when it was happening.

But no, the X-writers aren't to blame for this, they were just writing the exact same stories they would have written if the Decimation had been caused by something else - which of course it would have been if they hadn't decided to use "House of M" to make it happen.

[Havok83]

As you know, I see it differently rereading that era: Wanda was relentlessly shitted on by everyone. In Bendis's Avengers and the X-Men books she was talked about constantly and always as a terrible person who snapped and wiped out a race just to get revenge on her dad. She wasn't in the comics but she was a constant presence, and no writer even thought to have a character doubt that she was evil. So we already had years and years of writers caring only about the mutants and not at all about what they were doing to my favorite character, and the mutants have moved past it, but Wanda hasn't really been allowed to.

Was she? The only time I recall Wanda being talked about during his run was when she popped up for Teen Jean Grey to learn what she did. I could be wrong, but I dont recall her constantly being dragged in either of his books

[gurkle]

Was she? The only time I recall Wanda being talked about during his run was when she popped up for Teen Jean Grey to learn what she did. I could be wrong, but I dont recall her constantly being dragged in either of his books

I meant Bendis's Avengers books. He almost never had a character say a good word about Wanda there.

Wanda's appearance in All-New X-Men was fine. It called out the hypocrisy of the grown-ups who were bashing Cyclops while letting Wanda be an Avenger again, which is a fair point in-story and a good way to have the original X-Men question what they were being told.

[Veitha]

I don't remember Wanda being treated this badly. She was the victim in Children's Crusade that we were supposed to sympathize with.

[Havok83]

I meant Bendis's Avengers books. He almost never had a character say a good word about Wanda there.

Wanda's appearance in All-New X-Men was fine. It called out the hypocrisy of the grown-ups who were bashing Cyclops while letting Wanda be an Avenger again, which is a fair point in-story and a good way to have the original X-Men question what they were being told.

Thanks. I read his earlier Avengers material but its all a blur to me now

[ExodusCloak]

Wanda wasn't treated badly enough. She was fortunate an Avengers writer wrote her come back and then the X-writers had no input into it as the X-Men got no closure snd I include the New X-Men, Magma in this too

[GenericUsername]

Wanda wasn't treated badly enough. She was fortunate an Avengers writer wrote her come back and then the X-writers had no input into it as the X-Men got no closure snd I include the New X-Men, Magma in this too

No, she wasn't fortunate. The comeback, if you can call it that at all was not handled well. She's still not back on the main team and they've still not closed the HoM chapter. After CC she needed something that was her own. A solo then even. Not AvX and UA.

[Havok83]

Didnt she get a solo? Did that do nothing for her?