Why do people hate Ultimate Marvel?

[Iron Maiden]

Actually, yes, Wolverine and Jean having sex did happen.

Ugh. what terrible writing.

[Iron Maiden]

Not really he is greatly respected in Romania. Even then you say Victor was born evil in 1610 when again his mother spoke to demons and cursed him

I think they use Vlad the Impaler in Romania to gin up the tourism industry. Notoriety makes money too and he is not respected for his sainthood.

When did I say that Victor Van Damme was born evil? In both instances, the young Victors were basically good children. Victor Van Damme had a cruel and abusive father. Werner von Doom was a respected healer and loved his family. He gave his life to save his son from freezing to death.

Alright that is fair. I feel the reason they don't go more into his gypsy heritage is because he moved away from the magic element and for towards science with his powers being a result of a science experiment not sorcery so adding that bit really wasn't important

I think the only thing supernatural about Victor Van Damme were the goat legs since Lucifer is depicted in some older works with goat legs. Some people thought that goats were familairs used in black magic.

And making him more of a straight forward villain doesn't make him any worse of a character just a different character. As others have mentioned there were plenty of villains who are evil just because but nobody says they are bad. 1610 Doom and Magneto for that are just different types of villains than 616 Doom and Magneto dropping the facade of sympathy and gray morality and going for a more straight forward villain of the month and they serve it well. They are intimidating, have cool designs and give the heroes a good fight

In the long run Ultimate Magneto and Ultimate Doom faded away into obscurity. We never even got any follow up on them after the final incurion between Earth Prime and Earth 1610. I'd be surprised if they ever show up again.

I'm pretty sure they mentioned that he died. It also served to emphasize where Doom's self entitlement and grandiosity to rule comes from

I think it would have made for a better story if Ultimate Doom had rebelled and done away with his father on the sly. It could account for him getting control of the estate, etc.

I mean the whole Ultimates universe is a "copy of the original" so yeah. Like the Fantastic Four all act fairly similar to their 616 counterparts at the beginning the only major difference is their ages and them getting their powers from the N Zone instead of cosmic radiation.

Damme didn't seem to care about his avarice or wealth just power. I mean he literally turned himself into a metal half goat man. He only set up a shanty town in Copenhagen because he had citizenship, there were squatters protection, needed equipment to design his robo bugs to kill the F4 and he could convince people to live there since Copenhagen is one of the most expensive and taxing cities to live in. Even then neither he nor the others minded. He gave them free amenities and were happy to comply with him until he mind controlled them. It also foreshadowed what would come later

But as I said earlier, the writers after Ellis abandoned the shanty town set up and later appearances he starts to become more and more like MU Doom. IMO they were conceding that the 1610 concept failed. They even stopped showing the goat legs for a while although they did bring them back in that final volume. That version was a bit on the crazy side too, almost comically so.

Are you sure he had any control over his transformation? I don't think it was ever mentioned.

It just seems like such a weird combination to have a scientist become a sorcerer since scientists are suppose to be empiricists by nature

I look at it as showing that Victor von Doom is a somewhat of a polymath since he shows skills in science, magic, music and the arts (he dabbles in painting every so often) He's not genius level in the latter areas though, his strengths are in science and sorcery.

[Killerbee911]

I can't speak for other people but I like Ultimate Marvel, It was first time I actually like some characters namely Hawkeye and Captain America. Also I like the some of direction the X-men went in. Of course not everything was a hit but a choice of different direction from convoluted line and chance to clean up and do course correction on Marvel was a beautiful thing. I really want to stress how good it is too narrative clean up and re-imaging this stuff in modern era it is part that worked about the Nu52 as well. The obvious problem is continuity Ultimate universe isn't built for the long term because it develops the same problem of the original universe which is clunky history begins to weigh it down. Anyways so no not everyone hated Ultimate Universe and unlike some people I really like some of later stuff near the end.

I want to say a revival of the Ultimate Universe would be good thing but shockingly Marvel has done a good job of sneaking its heroes into the modern era and plus thanks to the movies we are pretty fresh what superheroes look like revamped in the modern era. What would be good approach for the UU today is giving us thing we know aren't going to see the introduce new generation of heroes like Miles, Kamela, Riri,Cho as 20 somethings and the main heroes of Marvel set in today and of course a big highlight would be what the older heroes are doing. That is experiment I want to see Miles as the adult main spideman, The Fantastic Four with grown Franklin,Valeria,Thing,Human Torch with Reed and Sue retired from superhero stuff. X-men and Avengers with most it members from the Champions, New Mutants & Gen-X, Runways and just a general book anthology book about the older heroes and villains. That where I think the Ultimate Universe should go if they were thinking of bring it back. They should do a Future Now type thing not only would it be something fresh just like original because it is a future now sort of deal you get to revamp the past clean up Marvel tell some of those retro stories and neatly put it into decades how it suppose to belong. Just my thoughts

[Starter Set]

Ane yes he did had sex with Ultimate Jean Grey and recently got into a relationship (physical at least) with 616 Jean Grey

Did he update his facebook page to troll Cyclops?

[Triniking1234]

Does anyone have the pages from the floppies that state 1610 Jean was under 18 before the TPBs?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Did he update his facebook page to troll Cyclops?

In the case of 616, Wolverine, Scott, and Jean Grey are in a polyamorous relationship (with Emma there for Cyke on the side). So Scott knows about Jean/Logan and approves. In fact there's some implication that Scott/Logan are also a thing.

Both Cyclops and Wolverine in the current Hickman run are on very friendly terms, probably the friendlies they have ever been. Total mutual respect and understanding, support, consideration and compassion, and Scott invites Logan to family vacations.

That's another example of 616 X-Men being more 21st Century and radical and transgressive than Ultimate Marvel ever fathomed it could be. This is the kind of innovation and lateral moves a superhero comic resolutely focused on the 21st Century should center around and Ultimate Marvel never once stepped to the plate.

[Ultimate Captain America]

In the case of 616, Wolverine, Scott, and Jean Grey are in a polyamorous relationship (with Emma there for Cyke on the side). So Scott knows about Jean/Logan and approves. In fact there's some implication that Scott/Logan are also a thing.

Both Cyclops and Wolverine in the current Hickman run are on very friendly terms, probably the friendlies they have ever been. Total mutual respect and understanding, support, consideration and compassion, and Scott invites Logan to family vacations.

That's another example of 616 X-Men being more 21st Century and radical and transgressive than Ultimate Marvel ever fathomed it could be. This is the kind of innovation and lateral moves a superhero comic resolutely focused on the 21st Century should center around and Ultimate Marvel never once stepped to the plate.

Swingers are "modern"? That's what being "21st century" is supposed to mean? Actually, yes, Ultimate Wasp had a similar mindset... and in such a discussion, I prefer to side with Cap.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Swingers are "modern"?

Being in a committed poly-relationship with a partner where you are tolerant of and approving of them having dependencies other than you is not the same as being a "swinger".

Actually, yes, Ultimate Wasp had a similar mindset... and in such a discussion, I prefer to side with Cap.

You do realize that being in a poly-relationship is not the same as condoning incest, right? Those are not the same thing in any ballpark or any definition. Trying to explore an alternative to monogamous relationships is not one step straight to keeping it in the family.

Here's some advice for Ultimate fans...read another book. Read other Marvel comics, different continuities (not just 616 but others). Read other comics, non-Marvel, non-DC, read actual books of fiction, watch documentaries...go to a class for some subject or the other where you can meet other people, catch up with your friends.

So far it seems the only references Ultimate Marvel fans have is Ultimate Marvel comics themselves.

We have some posters here who like Ultimate Marvel, warts and all, who appreciate it did some things decently and others not so, and then we have others who defend Ultimate Marvel as some divinely decreed text where even the stuff that's risible means something. It's not fun discussing with the latter category.

[Frontier]

Who needs romantic drama when you can just have everybody hookup ?

[Ultimate Captain America]

Give it the new name you want, two couples that exchange partners for sexual actions are swingers. And yes, it is not the same thing as incest, but it is comparable: incest is also between consenting adults, who are "exploring an alternative to monogamous relationships". Why would one be acceptable and not the other? I reject both. Incest is wrong, swinger relations are wrong. Still, I do not extend that opinion to the works themselves that feature such things. I do not approve incest, but I still read the Ultimates. I do not approve swingers, but I still read the Krakoa-related comics.

And yes, I usually see many other things other than comics. That's exactly the reason why I enjoy the Ultimate universe more than the regular one. Most of the things that many find so "shocking" are not really so shocking for me, because I have already seen such things, and to even worse degrees. Do you think that Ultimate Hulk is the only canibal I have ever seen? Sin City is worse. Do you think that Ultimate Quicksilver & Scarlet Witch are the only incestuous siblings I have seen? Torcuato and Alicia Ferreyra from "Tierra de amor y venganza" are worse. Do you think that Henry Pym is the only wifebeater I have ever seen? Sandoval from "Vis a Vis" is way more brutal. Do you think that Ultimate Wolverine-Jean is the only creepy adult-teenager relation I have ever seen? Again, we have Nancy and Hartigan in Sin City. Do you think that "Ultimatum" is the only "everybody dies" story I have ever seen? I have seen the original and the recent "Planet of the Apes" series, none of the initial characters make it to the end. No. I like superhero comics, but since some decades ago they have placed themselves into a "comfort zone" and never move from there (or act as if they are about to move, and then go back to square one). I can see that clearly, because I see things other than superheroes that are already outside the comfort zone. The Ultimate universe was an attempt to move the genre forward, I enjoyed it for it. And even if the years pass and the line stays closed, as long as no new comics try to move forward as well and stay within the confines of the confort zone, the Ultimate universe will still remain the more advanced, and really "Ultimate", version of Marvel characters.

And of course, none of that means that I "endorse" canibalism, incest, wifebeating, adult-minor relations or any of that. I do not need to endorse the things I see happening in a work of fiction. I don't consume them to have my beliefs validated (or feel wronged when they are defied), I consume works of fiction to get caught inside an interesting narrative.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Give it the new name you want, two couples that exchange partners for sexual actions are swingers. And yes, it is not the same thing as incest, but it is comparable:

No it isn't. The fact that you think it is, is the problem here. Your statements amount to an equivocation of and normalisation of incest.

incest is also between consenting adults, who are "exploring an alternative to monogamous relationships". Why would one be acceptable and not the other?

Because of something called "The Westermarck Effect" and the biological defects that can happen with endogamy...the incest taboo has strong science going for it.

That doesn't exist for other forms of relationships.

Do you think that Ultimate Hulk is the only canibal I have ever seen? Sin City is worse. Do you think that Ultimate Quicksilver & Scarlet Witch are the only incestuous siblings I have seen? Torcuato and Alicia Ferreyra from "Tierra de amor y venganza" are worse. Do you think that Henry Pym is the only wifebeater I have ever seen? Sandoval from "Vis a Vis" is way more brutal. Do you think that Ultimate Wolverine-Jean is the only creepy adult-teenager relation I have ever seen? Again, we have Nancy and Hartigan in Sin City. Do you think that "Ultimatum" is the only "everybody dies" story I have ever seen? I have seen the original and the recent "Planet of the Apes" series, none of the initial characters make it to the end.

I still think you should read other kinds of books. Preferably ones without cannnibalism, incest, and creepy relationships.

Even among stuff that explores the darker side of things, there are stories without all these.

I do not need to endorse the things I see happening in a work of fiction.

Okay, so does that mean you actually consider the Ultimates and Ultimate Wolverine to be terrible people and no different from the villains? Do you agree that the Chitauri an the enemies that the Ultimates fight are the same as the heroes?

What exactly is the evidence that the abhorrent behavior in these stories is actually being condemned and not absolved or enabled by these stories?

In something like Watchmen, there are many takeaways that we can have that the characters aren't good guys and we shouldn't be identifying with them.

Where is that takeaway in the Ultimate Marvel titles you like.

[babyblob]

Give it the new name you want, two couples that exchange partners for sexual actions are swingers.

Poly and swingers are different. Swingers are mostly sex based. Most Poly couples I know take the time to build a relationship with a third person involved. It is not about sex, or all about sex. There is building of friendship and trust.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Ultimate Wolverine was creepy af, Jean and Storm were both teenagers when he dated them, not to mention trying to sleep with a fifteen year old. And didn't adult Jean sleep with Logan's teenage son? I guess he robbed off on her...

Oh, and let's not forget Rogue and Gambit. She was like 15 and he was twice her age...

It's implied Logan did something sexual with MJ when he was in Peter's body.

[babyblob]

It's implied Logan did something sexual with MJ when he was in Peter's body.

Oh for sure I remember in the last page of the second issue of the story arc when Mj hugs Peter she says something like "That thing you tried today. Can we wait until we are older to do that?" Pretty implied he tried something.

[Ultimate Captain America]

I still think you should read other kinds of books. Preferably ones without cannnibalism, incest, and creepy relationships.

Even among stuff that explores the darker side of things, there are stories without all these.

Yes, I read and watch several other things, but the stories of Isaac Asimov, "Law & Order", "Money Heist" or "Modern Family" are not relevant to the discussion at hand, so there's no need to go in full detail.

The point is: consider the scene of Pym attacking Jan in the Ultimates. For someone who has only read superhero comics, and can only compare it with the 1970s comic, it is a terrible and shocking scene. For someone like me, who has seen the way those scenes are made in films and TV series that deal with the topic, that scene is trivial.

Okay, so does that mean you actually consider the Ultimates and Ultimate Wolverine to be terrible people and no different from the villains? Do you agree that the Chitauri an the enemies that the Ultimates fight are the same as the heroes?

What exactly is the evidence that the abhorrent behavior in these stories is actually being condemned and not absolved or enabled by these stories?

In something like Watchmen, there are many takeaways that we can have that the characters aren't good guys and we shouldn't be identifying with them.
Where is that takeaway in the Ultimate Marvel titles you like

See, that's the problem: the expectations. The Ultimates and Ultimate Wolverine are not people, they are fictional characters. I do not read them looking for a role model (I already have, they are my parents), nor I need the stories to explain to me what is right and what is wrong (I already learned those things back when I was a kid).