Avengers 42 *Spoilers*

[hawkeyefan]

I think in xmen forever where Jean talked to death and eternity, and they said humans were destined to evolve into eternity or something. Meh, no one remembers that stuff

Yeah, the Kree-Skrull War ended because humans were so wide open with potential compared to both those races. Several older stories talked about human potential being so great. It's just nice to finally see that reflected in the comics by some of the alien powers.

[vitruvian]

Sure, but that was before the destruction of the home world by Galactus and the subsequent fall of the Skrull Empire. At this point, the Skrukls were scattered and were living on random planets with different groups headed by different warlords. The Builders destroyed one or more of these worlds, which is why the Skrulls became involved.

It was only because of the events from Infinity that they re-established a homeworld. I don't think that any of their refuge planets or their eventual homeworld are given coordinates or anything more specific to locate them. Other than that they are along the way to Earth.

The majority of the Skrull Empire's other worlds were also supposed to be in the Andromeda Galaxy, not just their homeworld or throneworld, so still in a totally different direction from Earth than the Kree, and likely not in line with the Shi'ar who are based in their own galaxy either. There could have been an outlier Skrull world or two in the right direction, certainly, but in that case it wouldn't make sense for the remnants of the empire to consider such an outpost worth committing all their military forces to their defense, or revenge for their destruction... especially when if left alone, the Builders were on course to take out Hala and the other central Kree worlds.

Also, you can't 'reestablish a homeworld'. A homeworld (Skrullos) is the specific planet your species evolved on, and is distinct from a throneworld, the planet you use as your political capital.

First thing's first would be to arrive at your destination with enough strength to do what you want.

Yes, it would... and you would most certainly get a lot less attrition to a fleet by driving direct at your most important target (while of course posting elements of the fleet as picket ships to guard against possible attacks along the way), even if you have to deal with some attacks from territories along your path, than you would get from protracted engagements to conquer or destroy the entirety of large territories.

They did have such a system. Ex Nihilo changed the Earth and a signal was immediately sent to the Builders. However, Ex Nihilo's origin sites were tampered with and the "brain" was destroyed.

It is not stated explicitly in the story, but it is implied. They lose control of the Origin Sites and the related meta-humans created by them because of the destruction of the brain.

There's also the point that that particular Ex Nihilo wasn't acting under Builder guidance or supervision any longer, and that the 'Gardener' system with the Ex Nihilos seeding Origin sites, and the Superflow system that empowered Starbrand and Nightmask, were separate systems. We have no evidence that the "brain" could have commanded Starbrand to destroy the Earth.

[hawkeyefan]

The majority of the Skrull Empire's other worlds were also supposed to be in the Andromeda Galaxy, not just their homeworld or throneworld, so still in a totally different direction from Earth than the Kree, and likely not in line with the Shi'ar who are based in their own galaxy either. There could have been an outlier Skrull world or two in the right direction, certainly, but in that case it wouldn't make sense for the remnants of the empire to consider such an outpost worth committing all their military forces to their defense, or revenge for their destruction... especially when if left alone, the Builders were on course to take out Hala and the other central Kree worlds.

I don't think the worlds in question were planets that were ever in the Skrull Empire. Why should they be? After the failed Invasion of Earth, I would expect pockets of Skrulls to have fled to nearby worlds in any direction.

As for it not making sense to commit to a small outpost.... I would disagree. It makes sense because as K'lrt says in the story, they are warriors. Fighting is what drives them. And when it was all said and done, they unified and reestablished their empire.

Seems to make sense to me.

Also, you can't 'reestablish a homeworld'. A homeworld (Skrullos) is the specific planet your species evolved on, and is distinct from a throneworld, the planet you use as your political capital.

Meh, semantics. Call it a throneworld if that makes you feel better.

Yes, it would... and you would most certainly get a lot less attrition to a fleet by driving direct at your most important target (while of course posting elements of the fleet as picket ships to guard against possible attacks along the way), even if you have to deal with some attacks from territories along your path, than you would get from protracted engagements to conquer or destroy the entirety of large territories.

Many worlds surrendered to the Builders. Some fought, but I don't know if I'd categorize any such conflicts as "protracted". It wasn't until the different empires cooperated and got the Avengers on board that any resistance seemed effective. Prior to that, they simply rolled over anyone in their way.

There's also the point that that particular Ex Nihilo wasn't acting under Builder guidance or supervision any longer, and that the 'Gardener' system with the Ex Nihilos seeding Origin sites, and the Superflow system that empowered Starbrand and Nightmask, were separate systems. We have no evidence that the "brain" could have commanded Starbrand to destroy the Earth.

Sure there is, but you're partly right. The Origin Sites may not have commanded Starbrand to blow up the Earth.

The White Event is triggered by the Builder in the Superflow Nexus prior to it falling due to the multiversal collapse. Star brand is described as a part of this system, a security system capable of destroying a world. He is part of a different system than Ex Nihilo, but both are trying to run, and they don't seem perfectly compatible, so neither is running properly.

However, the fact that he was created by them, the fact that he can destroy the planet, the fact that they triggered his creation upon realizing that the superflow was collapsing....all of that is evidence.

[vitruvian]

I don't think the worlds in question were planets that were ever in the Skrull Empire. Why should they be? After the failed Invasion of Earth, I would expect pockets of Skrulls to have fled to nearby worlds in any direction.

So, they were supposed to have thousands of worlds in their empire in the Andromeda Galaxy... and because their centers of government were taken out, we're supposed to assume that they abandoned all of those, whether they'd been attacked or taken at all, and gone exclusively to new worlds that they held no sway over and would have to conquer from scratch?

Also, worlds anywhere along the same line going through Hala and Earth wouldn't be nearby... they'd be in a totally separate galaxy, whether the Greater Magellanic Cloud or the Milky Way, from the territory they were fleeing from.

As for it not making sense to commit to a small outpost.... I would disagree. It makes sense because as K'lrt says in the story, they are warriors. Fighting is what drives them. And when it was all said and done, they unified and reestablished their empire.

Seems to make sense to me.

Warriors actually tend to understand the importance of conserving resources and not committing an entire empire's armed forces to the defense of one outpost... but okay, say you're right... then these folks would not have abandoned any of their territory in the Andromeda Galaxy in the first place.

Many worlds surrendered to the Builders. Some fought, but I don't know if I'd categorize any such conflicts as "protracted". It wasn't until the different empires cooperated and got the Avengers on board that any resistance seemed effective. Prior to that, they simply rolled over anyone in their way.

We saw plenty of worlds fighting them, both in space and by requiring them to land forces to occupy the planets themselves. This process was surely more protracted than any battles they may have had to fight while simply heading towards Earth at maximum speed, and any worlds that did surrender without a fight would logically have been even more willing to let the Builders just pass through without a fight - or any Builders needing to stop and accept the surrender... so even the passage through space held by races not willing to fight such a huge force would have been quicker.

Sure there is, but you're partly right. The Origin Sites may not have commanded Starbrand to blow up the Earth.

The White Event is triggered by the Builder in the Superflow Nexus prior to it falling due to the multiversal collapse. Star brand is described as a part of this system, a security system capable of destroying a world. He is part of a different system than Ex Nihilo, but both are trying to run, and they don't seem perfectly compatible, so neither is running properly.

However, the fact that he was created by them, the fact that he can destroy the planet, the fact that they triggered his creation upon realizing that the superflow was collapsing....all of that is evidence.

Once the Superflow is gone, we see no evidence that they're able to control the Starbrand any longer... if they ever were. In point of fact, Starbrand blows up significant portions of their fleet without them being able to command him to stop doing that. Nor do we have evidence that the two systems, one of which was supposed to have superseded the other recall, were built to interact with each other.

I still enjoyed the storyline, don't get me wrong, but I still have to maintain that a lot of the Builders' actions don't make a lot of sense if one is to believe that their first and highest priority was to destroy the Earth so there wouldn't be any more Incursions and the universe they were in wouldn't get destroyed with them in it. They spent way too much time dealing with side issues or things they could have handled at their leisure once the immediate and urgent threat of universal destruction was resolved.

At the very least, even if they were so arrogant as to believe that they wouldn't face any significant opposition and could handle everything at once, that should have meant that they at least sent a significant detachment of Alphas or similar ahead of the main fleet to take out Earth, especially once they saw that a bunch of Earth's superhumans were away from home and starting to have some success against them... and I'd also point out that the fact that they bothered to hold half of their fleet cloaked in reserve argues not only that they would have been hard to detect if they'd wanted to just zoom to Earth, but that they weren't really as confident as all that. After all, why bother to hide half your forces if you think nobody's going to be able to slow you down anyway? Shoot, in terms of speed with which they could attack and the degree of surprise they could achieve if they chose... remember the attack across interstellar distances on that ringworld just after J'Son betrayed the council? Explain why they couldn't have employed the same type of attack against Earth, if destroying it to stop Incursions was really their goal.

[ExodusCloak]

The Sh'iar are on the exact opposite end of the Universe to Earth. It's why Vulcan required a bajillion stargates to get there. As did the X-Men. It's stated in Rise and Fall of the Shiar Empire.

[vitruvian]

The Sh'iar are on the exact opposite end of the Universe to Earth. It's why Vulcan required a bajillion stargates to get there. As did the X-Men. It's stated in Rise and Fall of the Shiar Empire.

Which direction? In order for there to be a straight line for the Builders to follow, the Shi'ar Galaxy must necessarily then be exactly behind both Skrull and Kree territory (and every other planet the Builders hit). Otherwise, if that's off by even a fraction of a degree, they could bypass the closer territories by thousands of light years on their way to Earth.

Not to mention, in that case it makes little sense for them to be part of a Galactic Council for the galaxy (the Milky Way) that contains Earth. After all, not only do they have to jump through tons of stargates to get anywhere near the Milky Way, but surely they've got plenty to do in their own galaxy.

I mean, everybody here does know there's a difference between a galaxy and a universe, and a pretty big one at that, right?

[ExodusCloak]

Which direction? In order for there to be a straight line for the Builders to follow, the Shi'ar Galaxy must necessarily then be exactly behind both Skrull and Kree territory (and every other planet the Builders hit). Otherwise, if that's off by even a fraction of a degree, they could bypass the closer territories by thousands of light years on their way to Earth.

Not to mention, in that case it makes little sense for them to be part of a Galactic Council for the galaxy (the Milky Way) that contains Earth. After all, not only do they have to jump through tons of stargates to get anywhere near the Milky Way, but surely they've got plenty to do in their own galaxy.

I mean, everybody here does know there's a difference between a galaxy and a universe, and a pretty big one at that, right?

I don't believe it stated which direction, just that it was on opposite sides of the Universe. If you imagine it as a line so to speak then they're opposite sides of the line. The Sh'iar are one of the most advanced races in 616, their Imperial Guard is made up on the various different planets/galaxies they've colonised supposedly it's not that farfetched they'd be involved. Whether the Kree or Skrulls lie in that straight line I have no idea.

[yet another]

I mean, everybody here does know there's a difference between a galaxy and a universe, and a pretty big one at that, right?

Not in comics.

There's Earth and there's Space, and that is that.

Also, the latter is apparently much smaller, as two characters that independently travel to Space have a much higher chance of encountering each other than two characters that stay on Earth.

[hawkeyefan]

So, they were supposed to have thousands of worlds in their empire in the Andromeda Galaxy... and because their centers of government were taken out, we're supposed to assume that they abandoned all of those, whether they'd been attacked or taken at all, and gone exclusively to new worlds that they held no sway over and would have to conquer from scratch?

Also, worlds anywhere along the same line going through Hala and Earth wouldn't be nearby... they'd be in a totally separate galaxy, whether the Greater Magellanic Cloud or the Milky Way, from the territory they were fleeing from.

I don't know if it was just their centers of government. Sure, the capital world was consumed by galactic, but I think the Annihilation Wave also decimated the empire. Then Veranke convinced many of the surviving Skrulls to invade Earth and that backfired.

I got the impression from recent stories with the Skrulls that they were pretty well scattered throughout the cosmos. Infinity certainly hints at that.

Warriors actually tend to understand the importance of conserving resources and not committing an entire empire's armed forces to the defense of one outpost... but okay, say you're right... then these folks would not have abandoned any of their territory in the Andromeda Galaxy in the first place.

I don't think it was just one outpost, but I think that the factions that were in the region decided to fight because that was all they had left. They didn't really have much to lose. Maybe I'm misremembering, but Super-Skrull seems to imply that. He seemed almost thankful for an enemy for his languishing people to fight.

Whatever the state of the once flourishing empire in the Andromeda galaxy, I'm not sure if it mattered at all anymore.

We saw plenty of worlds fighting them, both in space and by requiring them to land forces to occupy the planets themselves. This process was surely more protracted than any battles they may have had to fight while simply heading towards Earth at maximum speed, and any worlds that did surrender without a fight would logically have been even more willing to let the Builders just pass through without a fight - or any Builders needing to stop and accept the surrender... so even the passage through space held by races not willing to fight such a huge force would have been quicker.

I don't know....Galador seemed to fall pretty quickly. We can guess at how long it took them to win in situations we didn't see, but if we go off what we did see, I think it's safe to say they made pretty good time.

Perhaps they could have been quicker. But I also am not sure how much they knew about the Incursions. Certainly they knew that the destruction of their Superflow had something to do with Earth. They were likely aware that the multiverse was collapsing. But did they know about the Incursions? Did they know they had a deadline?

I'm not sure. If it was mentioned, I forget. Then again, maybe they knew exactly when the incursions would happen and had planned accordingly. Their entire trek across space took place in between Incursions.

Once the Superflow is gone, we see no evidence that they're able to control the Starbrand any longer... if they ever were. In point of fact, Starbrand blows up significant portions of their fleet without them being able to command him to stop doing that. Nor do we have evidence that the two systems, one of which was supposed to have superseded the other recall, were built to interact with each other.

I still enjoyed the storyline, don't get me wrong, but I still have to maintain that a lot of the Builders' actions don't make a lot of sense if one is to believe that their first and highest priority was to destroy the Earth so there wouldn't be any more Incursions and the universe they were in wouldn't get destroyed with them in it. They spent way too much time dealing with side issues or things they could have handled at their leisure once the immediate and urgent threat of universal destruction was resolved.

At the very least, even if they were so arrogant as to believe that they wouldn't face any significant opposition and could handle everything at once, that should have meant that they at least sent a significant detachment of Alphas or similar ahead of the main fleet to take out Earth, especially once they saw that a bunch of Earth's superhumans were away from home and starting to have some success against them... and I'd also point out that the fact that they bothered to hold half of their fleet cloaked in reserve argues not only that they would have been hard to detect if they'd wanted to just zoom to Earth, but that they weren't really as confident as all that. After all, why bother to hide half your forces if you think nobody's going to be able to slow you down anyway? Shoot, in terms of speed with which they could attack and the degree of surprise they could achieve if they chose... remember the attack across interstellar distances on that ringworld just after J'Son betrayed the council? Explain why they couldn't have employed the same type of attack against Earth, if destroying it to stop Incursions was really their goal.

I just meant that it seemed that the Builders had a couple of systems in place to take care of the Earth if need be and it was the destruction of the Superflow that corrupted those systems, making a more hands on approach necessary.

As for speed, yes, perhaps they could have made it to Earth more quickly. The story indicates they did it in as direct a route as they could, so it certainly implies that speed was at least a concern for them, if not their ultimate goal. We really don't get a lot of their reasoning.

I liked the Builders because we didn't fully understand them or their exact "place" in the cosmos, or what they really wanted beyond destroying Earth.

[jphamlore]

Yeah, the Kree-Skrull War ended because humans were so wide open with potential compared to both those races. Several older stories talked about human potential being so great. It's just nice to finally see that reflected in the comics by some of the alien powers.

It seems to me the hero who has taken the biggest fall in push in recent years has been Rick Jones. The problem is that he is obsolete as the younger person who represents the reader in the story. It's interesting to me that in this event Time Runs Out / Secret Wars that mentions almost every cosmic power known in Marvel, nothing is said about the Destiny Force or Rick Jones' occasional abilities wielding it.

[vitruvian]

I don't believe it stated which direction, just that it was on opposite sides of the Universe. If you imagine it as a line so to speak then they're opposite sides of the line. The Sh'iar are one of the most advanced races in 616, their Imperial Guard is made up on the various different planets/galaxies they've colonised supposedly it's not that farfetched they'd be involved. Whether the Kree or Skrulls lie in that straight line I have no idea.

There's stuff in every direction from Earth, though, so Earth can't be at the end of any line other than the one going to it. If that were the case, the night sky would be blank in one direction.

[vitruvian]

Not in comics.

There's Earth and there's Space, and that is that.

Also, the latter is apparently much smaller, as two characters that independently travel to Space have a much higher chance of encountering each other than two characters that stay on Earth.

There are billions of galaxies in the MU as well. It's been referenced in stories set there.

[jackolover]

Just finished reading "The Iron Age", and I can say that it was a surprisingly good read.

That was quick.

[jackolover]

Why? Because while you're doing that, an Incursion could happen, and they're dead.

What's so difficult about the concept of first things first?

The Builders seemed a bit dull to my mind. They may have been acting on very antiquated value systems?

[jackolover]

Etiquette over survival? After all, every Incursion stood a reasonable chance of ending the universe, with the Builders no longer having a means to escape the universe...

I suppose it can all work if we find out that the Builders had some very good reason for assuming they had a lot of time before the Incursions would truly threaten the existence of the universe, but absent an excellent knowledge of what was going on on Earth with the Illuminati and the nature of the next dozen Incursions that were going to hit Earth-616, I don't really see how they could be confident of that. Almost everything I think of in this regard seems like something they could easily have used as a failsafe even when it started to look like they might be defeated... things like having a backdoor remote control built into all Starbrands, so that if things got iffy they'd just have Starbrand destroy the planet. The best I can think of is that they did have some such failsafe, but were unable to activate it before the awakened Captain Universe took them out... but even that makes little sense considering how they were able to command the Alephs to go on a full-out rampage. But if the Alephs were the failsafe, why didn't we see that at least a few dozen of them were sent directly towards Earth?

Like their inadequate star ships, the Builders seemed incredibly under resourced at that particular time in history. Maybe they were caught with their pants down, and having assumed their NewUniversal system was for ever, never kept up any failsafes. After a million years I can see them getting blase'.

I think the builders were arrogant too. They may have thought they were so superior, that none of the Empires could resist them as all of them were easily defeated and subjugated, so the shock of the Avengers involvement was something they were unprepared for, and were wiped out in the end. There is something to be said for respecting your enemy, and the Builders didn't do that.

But certainly there is something to be said for your suggestion the Builders cloak their ships and just go straight to Earth. I'm not sure the Intention was to get there because they wanted to stop Incursions, more than the destruction that happened to the Superflow was Earths fault and they just wanted to,punish them?