Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Spiderfan001]

I promise I am not being snippy when I say this:

Because he was right. The Phoenix’ entire goal was to restart mutantkind after Wanda wiped out the population. The Avengers had a right to be afraid, but their entire goal was in conflict with a force they could not stop and was non-hostile initially. It attacked when the Avengers would come at it and the Phoenix Five only became corrupt because they were constantly being antagonized by the Avengers.

Reading the original Dark Phoenix Saga, it was apparent that the raw power brought in dark thoughts in Jean that she didn’t want to acknowledge. Mastermind nurtured those Dark thoughts and drove her with a lust for it. In the same way, by forcing the X-Men into a war, the Phoenix was being fed dark emotions that would end up being magnified by the constant warring between factions.

What was the Avengers solution in the end?…….. Make Hope Summers the host because according to Iron Man’s data, the prime host is the only one capable of defeating and controlling it…..so in essence, the exact thing the X-Men were doing to begin with. Only now, they had to go the extra step of defeating a Dark Phoenix Cyclops because they pushed him into corner.




If that were true, the Phoenix Five would have done so when they had the Phoenix. But they clearly showed nothing but a desire for peace and prosperity between humanity and mutants as they provided for the entire planet with the Phoenix’ powers.

Logan, for all his experience with the Phoenix Force, does not know how to deal with it beyond his claws. He couldn’t get through to Jean Grey and she would come to him to kill her if she couldn’t deal with it, which wouldn’t work the two times she tried with him. And the basis of AvX entirely ignores the good the Phoenix did before and after Dark Phoenix. So, with all due respect, none of them properly knew what went on with the Phoenix Force and had no business in dealing with it.



You meaning training and support she would have gotten from Cyclops and the X-Men had the Avengers not interrupted? It’s no secret, claimed even from Jean herself, that a degree of mental fortitude and emotional support is necessary when dealing with the Phoenix.

Hope was never supposed do it alone to begin with. Whether it would have worked out in the long run is unknown to me, but it’s quite apparent the Avengers got incredibly lucky. We’re it not for Kun Lun taking the initiative in continuing training Hope, the team would have still had a relatively untrained Hope with no clarity on how to get out of the mess they made.



Because it was always for large scale threats. The large scale stuff is important, but we can’t go on thinking that is all the X-Men needed help with. The Avengers deal with big threats. That’s fine and appreciated, but they can’t go claiming a moral high ground on issues they have no clue about, especially when they take in refuge one of the literal cause for their problems, Wanda Maximoff.

The X-Men aren’t saints, don’t get me wrong. But they aren’t wrong in claiming the Avengers do very little to help in the efforts of peace between mutantkind and humanity. They tried with Uncanny Avengers, but that turned into a complicated mess that did nothing for the peace between mutant and humans. Then the mutants face extinction twice over with IvX and then Rosenberg’s Uncanny when the majority of X-Men are taken to an alternate universe, leaving mutantkind with no saviors for them. Seriously, mutants were being put into concentration camps and used as weapons by the government. Even Hope Summers joined a rebel band of mutants that Cyclop’s X-Men had to stop because conditions were so bad. And we get nothing from Captain America beyond him keeping Scott from starting a riot in one of the rallies about mutants being persecuted.

It’s a complex issue that the Avengers wash their hands clean of for bigger problems.

Edit: I hope this doesn’t come off as dismissive. Like I said, what the Avengers do is very important. My point is mostly they don’t have a claim on the mutant issue because they basically stay out of it until things start to get dangerous.

Just re-read a lot of AvX material and I think I can keep this short.

Phoenix wasn't non hostile(in this):-It killed a planet coming to Earth.Then everything with Nova.

Og Phoenix wasn't the same as it is in this story imo.There a lot of changes that while I don't approve of are way too big to ignore.

Avengers wanted to get her in custody and get her somewhere Phoenix won't be able to reach her or figure out a solution to it.It was time-sensitive since Phoenix was on it's way and cyclops wouldn't listen to their reason.

Phoenix five were gods giving humans mercy and it's clear they were getting more corrupt with time and not just because of the attacks.

I agree.But Avengers had all the reasons to do this:-

1)It destroyed a planet full of life and then Nova barely made it
2)Cap went to Logan who told him Scott was up to something.Cap wanted them to work together.
3)He went to Utopia and cyclops was the first one to attack with Physical force.Then magnetic cannonball was the first attack when both teams were ready.
Cap was talking to scott when he had him down on his knees and easy to take out of the fight.

And as for Avengers interfering the real reason is because the story wants Avengers in it.
But in-universe it's because they always have stuff going on, when they don't they will help.That is why they interefred.

This to me is the best point for Avengers:-
1)Cyclops's training wasn't gonna do it.We saw in Kun-lun that Hope needed training from Iron fist and the Spider(Spider-man) in particular.Not just any traing, and scott's training would help in combat but he was just kicking her and blasting her.Not the best state of mind.

2)Again Hope needed Wanda specifically.X-men had nothing to substitute her.It would fail if not for Wanda.

3)Again if not for the Avengers splitting the phoenix we never would have gotten time to get hope to kun-lun for her training since it would go to hope and as showed above it would not work.It's lucky but Avengers were planning different ways to deal with it and X-men were going for the direct approach.One had a chance of working and it did work out, other is gonna fail.

They aren't claiming moral high ground.Scott says it's okay to risk the phoenix because it always brings death and destruction but also rebirth.He's justifying a lot of collateral damage including lives and livelyhoods for a long shot which as stated above would not work.
Avengers wanted to but time to get Hope somewhere same, they wanted to make sure the planet doesn't die or tremendous loss of life doesn't occur.Logan wanted to kill the messiah for which Cap threw him out of the plain.
And Wanda messed the Avengers up too, Avengers disassembled.And Magneto was the one who killed Quicksilver in a fit of rage which lead to Wanda going No more mutants.Yet magneto is a champion of Krakoa.

Again, that goes both ways.Where were the X-men when Ultron killed a country.Where were they in the countless battles when the FF, Avengers, Defenders, Spider-man etc. were fighting within an inch of their lives and countless people died.
That's because they all had stuff to do, it's not like they saw mutants getting killed and said lets get a mimosa.
This isn't a valid argument.


I just want to say if anything sounds rude I apologize.And thanks a lot for the post, it's pretty great.

[Spiderfan001]

Additional context for Spiderfan001 as this is a good overall overview



A few other bits of context, part of the reason that Tony was SOOO concerned about the Phoenix Force (other than Novas report) was from some awful time travel story featured in Iron Age (1-3 and then Omega) where a Iron Man villain decides to destroy the world by bringing Dark Phoenix to the present and destroys the Earth. Tony time travels, manages to undo everything, and sets the timeline right. Hence why the EVILS of the Phoenix Force is on his mind and he has some things brewing prior to AvX starting. It's nonsense and I wish it weren't canon but I can't find anything that says it isn't.

And yes, Logan apparently is more of an expert on the Phoenix Force because he's stabbed Jean and Rachel in the past a few times, vs any of the previous hosts who were active in the X-Men and controlled it well (Rachel, Emma, the Cuckoos) or anyone closer to Jean than he (Storm). Contrived nonsense to elevate his status as a traitor to the X-Men in this event. He should never have been made any type of authority to the PF.



Also a convenient reminder that while the entire event was contrived to make money and characters are wildly written out of character, the sidelining of Rachel Hope's mentor prior to and during this event made little sense to everyone, especially since Spidey's training consisted of carrying buckets and referencing an undeveloped and unknown previous Iron Fist Phoenix host conveniently created and revealed only for this event (a ploy to begin cementing the Avengers and greater MU tie and ownership of the PF over the X-Men).

Good to know.That tony reason gives good context.

Again he was there mutant expert.They went to him because they were the best he had.
And the story proves the Avengers right.I have mentioned reasons above.

And even when Hope wanted to be killed, Cyclops stopped Logan from doing so.

Yeah I agree.She should have been front and centre.
Again most of it happened of panel, that's bad bu it was a lot more than that.

I dislike the retcons too but they are too big to ignore since they do play a major part in this story.

[Mercury]

Just saw these panels from Cable #12, which showcases her empathy - a big part of why I love Jean so much:

[Omega_DCD]

Just saw these panels from Cable #12, which showcases her empathy - a big part of why I love Jean so much:

Yeah this is what I meant...and Kudos to Esme for not just going diamond form to shut off her feelings

[Mercury]

Yeah this is what I meant...and Kudos to Esme for not just going diamond form to shut off her feelings

Frankly, this is what I've loved most about her this era: There is a quiet strength and dignity to her that has been consistently displayed under different writers and throughout various books.

[Conor]

Just saw these panels from Cable #12, which showcases her empathy - a big part of why I love Jean so much:

I love to see Jean interacting and getting along with the Stepford Cuckoos. I know the Stepford Cuckoos had a complex relationship with teen Jean at times but I feels the Cuckoos have a great deal of respect for adult Jean, especially as a fellow telepath and a telepath of the highest order.

[Spiderfan001]

Just saw these panels from Cable #12, which showcases her empathy - a big part of why I love Jean so much:

Great moment!

[Triniking1234]

I think when X of Swords was out some other users were complaining about Duggan's Jean. Nice to see that isn't a problem now.

[andreikes]

The moment can be as serious as possible... Here comes Jean in this costume

Hahaha
20210728_162439.jpg

[Askani's Flame]

Good to know.That tony reason gives good context.

Again he was there mutant expert.They went to him because they were the best he had.
And the story proves the Avengers right.I have mentioned reasons above.

And even when Hope wanted to be killed, Cyclops stopped Logan from doing so.

Yeah I agree.She should have been front and centre.
Again most of it happened of panel, that's bad bu it was a lot more than that.

I dislike the retcons too but they are too big to ignore since they do play a major part in this story.

I disagree with you on various points and rather than derail the Jean Grey Thread there have been a multitude of AvX threads dedicated to discussing the nuances of this awful event. We can revive that if necessary. No one was right, no one was wrong. Just a whole lot of bad writing all around.

Just saw these panels from Cable #12, which showcases her empathy - a big part of why I love Jean so much:

I love when Jean gets to show her empathy with every other telepath in Krakoa....except Rachel. And yes, that's shade to the writers not to the character.

[Mercury]

I love when Jean gets to show her empathy with every other telepath in Krakoa....except Rachel. And yes, that's shade to the writers not to the character.

Have there been no substantial moments between Jean and Cable during Hickman's run? If so, why do you think this is the case?

[Rising7]

On a more ancillary note this week's SWORD mentions the new mineral Mysterium was made in the White Hot Room. Granted the White Hot Room at this point has been diluted as a concept, though not as badly as the Phoenix force yet. It also dawned on me that SWORD's involvement in this Last Annihilation event could've been a good place for Jean to realize the cosmic hero potential that has occasionally come up in this thread, alas.

[Phoenixx9]

I disagree with you on various points and rather than derail the Jean Grey Thread there have been a multitude of AvX threads dedicated to discussing the nuances of this awful event. We can revive that if necessary. No one was right, no one was wrong. Just a whole lot of bad writing all around.



I love when Jean gets to show her empathy with every other telepath in Krakoa....except Rachel. And yes, that's shade to the writers not to the character.

Quite true with AVX and all of the threads.

I am glad to see you put this on the writers---where it belongs---and not on Jean. Jean is a Terrific Character.

[Askani's Flame]

Have there been no substantial moments between Jean and Cable during Hickman's run? If so, why do you think this is the case?

Cable is a telepath no? And I can't count how many awesome and endearing moments Jean has had with Cable over the years, in particular during Hickman's run and here in Duggan's Cable. It shows some of the amazing and endearing qualities that Jean has. I can count on one hand the amount of awesome or just "good" moments we have had with Jean and Rachel over the years, and there have been no moments and almost no communication between the two during Hickman's reign. Unless you count that one "Good job" she got from Jean as an awesome moment in a previous Cable issue. Last good thing we got was in X-Men Red.

I am glad to see you put this on the writers---where it belongs---and not on Jean. Jean is a Terrific Character.

Oh totally. It's just really disappointing that this is what the writers do, and then wonder why readers and fans think there is something going on between them. If you showed us they act as a family, we wouldn't wonder ya know?

[Phoenixx9]

Oh totally. It's just really disappointing that this is what the writers do, and then wonder why readers and fans think there is something going on between them. If you showed us they act as a family, we wouldn't wonder ya know?

Yeah I feel ya....it just seems the past and current crop of writers do not want to go there at all, despite fans wanting it.