Secret Wars 9 *Spoilers*

[Biclopcicle]

the incursions did happen. The incursions ended when 616 and 1610 colliding with each other. They didn't go back to 616. This is a new universe where T'Challa used the gem to reset things back to NA #1, but it's still different. History was rewritten because we saw it rewritten in Secret Wars #9. Jonathan Hickman and Tom Brevoort have also explained this.

nevermind my diagram didn't work. I agree that the history of ANAD is somewhat different than 616 history. But the incursions still occurred in the ANAD history. Otherwise no one could remember them. We have people besides survivors from the old 616 remembering Incursions, so it must be a part of the history. I'm pretty sure this coheres with everything in the Hickman/Brevoort interview and with Brevoort's formspring

[ZNOP]

after the retcon Owen did get jobbed

but Hickman is bringing him back to "pre retcon" levels i would argue

Omnipotence gets tired quick and usually ends with the character being written right into their very own White hot, Black Bug, Adamantium limbo. Thus, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if Owen Reese expended his entire physical being and simply vanished after anchoring the last individual reality/dimension/timeline into it place recreating the multiverse.

[Random4]

Omnipotence gets tired quick and usually ends with the character being written right into their very own White hot, Black Bug, Adamantium limbo. Thus, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if Owen Reese expended his entire physical being and simply vanished after anchoring the last individual reality/dimension/timeline into it place recreating the multiverse.

if that happens i wouldn't be suprised

but we can at least say right now he is the most powerful mu character ever

[jackolover]

616 doesn't exist anymore. Those universes are dead. Reed Richards may be restoring order, but it's not what it was before. When BP goes back in time the incursions are gone, because they've already been dealt with. Doom is the desttroyer anymore, The Beyonders are gone, and everything is back to "normal" (not really because miles is there, Old Man Logan, Squadron Supreme, etc). There is no replay of the Secret Wars. It happened it was dealt with and now the solution is for Reed, Franklin, and Owen to restore the Multiverse while the Ultimates work towards preventing any issues like this from occuring again, but there is not TRO repeat. It's over.

So Reed/Owen/Franklin have already created ANAD Earth by the time Panther whisks back to Wakanda NA#1 and continues history in another sense down a different path? The rest of the denizens of Battleworld could have done the same thing, couldn't they?

Then we jump forward 8 months from the time this occurrence was supposed to have happened, (Reed etc creating the ANAD), and peoples histories have gone another way, except, they still remember the Incursions and that Reed did this. Surely there has been more water under the bridge than just 8 months, since NA#1?

So this just leaves at what point people were inserted in their ANAD history? Panther got inserted at NA#1, Parker looks like he was inserted around Amazing Spiderman #1, after Superior.

[ZNOP]

if that happens i wouldn't be suprised

but we can at least say right now he is the most powerful mu character ever

Sure, being that every abstract cosmic being was recently dead (or still is) it's just far too strange an ending to believe a being with the ability to alter all of reality on a whim wouldn't have the cosmic sense to right everything just like that. The Franklin, Reed, Owen collaboration was complete and utter OVERKILL!

[Johnny Peril]

the incursions did happen. The incursions ended when 616 and 1610 colliding with each other. They didn't go back to 616. This is a new universe where T'Challa used the gem to reset things back to NA #1, but it's still different. History was rewritten because we saw it rewritten in Secret Wars #9. Jonathan Hickman and Tom Brevoort have also explained this.

So this new universe, Prime Earth, is actually the former universe where the gems have power, where the land Doomstadt was constructed on came from?

[jackolover]

nevermind my diagram didn't work. I agree that the history of ANAD is somewhat different than 616 history. But the incursions still occurred in the ANAD history. Otherwise no one could remember them. We have people besides survivors from the old 616 remembering Incursions, so it must be a part of the history. I'm pretty sure this coheres with everything in the Hickman/Brevoort interview and with Brevoort's formspring

It is possible all anybody retains of their previous 616, Incursion, history is memory of it, and that ANAD has a new history that didn't include the incursions anymore? They remember it like a dream. There is indication from Marvel that everything still happened in the 616, but, Marvel still contend this ANAD is not a reboot. If it is a whole other reality, manufactured to the best fit, why isn't ANAD a reboot? Reed is God. He just made the Universe. Hmmm. Sounds different to the 616 to me.

It's possible the ANAD is the same as the 616, if Reed/Owen/Franklin is analogous to Stan Lee /Jack Kirby/Steve Ditko.

[neohuey89]

So Reed/Owen/Franklin have already created ANAD Earth by the time Panther whisks back to Wakanda NA#1 and continues history in another sense down a different path? The rest of the denizens of Battleworld could have done the same thing, couldn't they?

Then we jump forward 8 months from the time this occurrence was supposed to have happened, (Reed etc creating the ANAD), and peoples histories have gone another way, except, they still remember the Incursions and that Reed did this. Surely there has been more water under the bridge than just 8 months, since NA#1?

So this just leaves at what point people were inserted in their ANAD history? Panther got inserted at NA#1, Parker looks like he was inserted around Amazing Spiderman #1, after Superior.

We're not exactly sure. Most of it is up to interpretation after what Hickman and Brevoort verified in the post interview. According to Breevort formspring, we can assume that Wakanda is where BP landed because where he was at was indeed Wakanda (we know in Secret Wars that Doomstadt was built on top of Wakanda or at least parts of it were). I shouldn't have said went back in time either because we don't know if it was time or reality, but we do know that when Reed recieved Molecule Man's powers and everything fell apart, when everyone was fading away he used the Gem to relocate.

In my personal opinion everyone except Reed, T'Challa, Owen, and possibly Doom perished, and with the powers those people were brought back no problem. The same way Susan and the rest of the FF were dead for 8 years, but they are back and things are fine. We know that these deceased characters can be pulled from "purgatory" and based on Contest of Champions it's not exclusive to Reed and Owen. Aside from Miles, we don't know why the other characters are randomly in the ANAD universe. Did Reed decide this was best for them?, did T'Challa accidently pull them in when he altered reality? We're no exactly sure. I believe that the same way Miles randomly ended up somewhere is the same way some other characters will end up somewhere. So we know that 1610 is gone, but maybe 1610 Iron Man was thrown into the mix of one of the random universes that Franklin imagined. In the end only time and editorial will tell.

[Biclopcicle]

It is possible all anybody retains of their previous 616, Incursion, history is memory of it, and that ANAD has a new history that didn't include the incursions anymore? They remember it like a dream. There is indication from Marvel that everything still happened in the 616, but, Marvel still contend this ANAD is not a reboot. If it is a whole other reality, manufactured to the best fit, why isn't ANAD a reboot? Reed is God. He just made the Universe. Hmmm. Sounds different to the 616 to me.

I think the following, based on everything we know both within the pages of the books and what has been said from Brevoort:

The ANAD universe has a history that is almost exactly like 616 leading up to Battleworld. The final incursion happens, but instead of Battleworld, we get ANAD marvel. All the stories leading up to the Final Incursion are therefore canon to the ANAD history. That's how it's not a reboot.

The ambiguity of what T'Challa did makes it a little challenging. We know that people in ANAD marvel remember Incursions, so they are definitely part of that universe's history. And yet we don't see one on panel with TChalla. Either he ignored it or that particular one didn't happen. Or he used the reality gem and recreated Wakanda at the moment of NA#1 and grafted it onto Reed's creation of ANAD Marvel right at the point of its history where Battleworld should have occured but didn't. In that case, the ANAD history would be different in other ways besides Battleworld- namely that Wakanda is never destroyed during Infinity or overrun by the Cabal. This is in the ANAD history, mind you. We know that all those things still occured in the history of the 616 universe.

[neohuey89]

So this new universe, Prime Earth, is actually the former universe where the gems have power, where the land Doomstadt was constructed on came from?

well it's hard to say because the way Brevoort is explaining it, there is no former universe and ANAD isn't 616 because that's been destroyed already. So where we are now is an All New All Different universe, but it's been molded by the elements we're familiar with from 616 (and pieces from other universes as well). I'd like to think that these new universes are better versions of what Battleworld was supposed to be.

[neohuey89]

I think the following, based on everything we know both within the pages of the books and what has been said from Brevoort:

The ANAD universe has a history that is almost exactly like 616 leading up to Battleworld. The final incursion happens, but instead of Battleworld, we get ANAD marvel. All the stories leading up to the Final Incursion are therefore canon to the ANAD history. That's how it's not a reboot.

The ambiguity of what T'Challa did makes it a little challenging. We know that people in ANAD marvel remember Incursions, so they are definitely part of that universe's history. And yet we don't see one on panel with TChalla. Either he ignored it or that particular one didn't happen. Or he used the reality gem and recreated Wakanda at the moment of NA#1 and grafted it onto Reed's creation of ANAD Marvel right at the point of its history where Battleworld should have occured but didn't. In that case, the ANAD history would be different in other ways besides Battleworld- namely that Wakanda is never destroyed during Infinity or overrun by the Cabal. This is in the ANAD history, mind you. We know that all those things still occured in the history of the 616 universe.

the part I disagree with is that there's an alternate history with the incursions. To me it's like if everyone see what happened, but then everyone jumped into a time machine before it happened and we have an alternate reality of what took place. Similar to what happened in Age of X. The incursions didn't happen in ANAD, they happened in 616, but since most of the characters are transferred from 616 they remember those things happening.

[Biclopcicle]

We're not exactly sure. Most of it is up to interpretation after what Hickman and Brevoort verified in the post interview. According to Breevort formspring, we can assume that Wakanda is where BP landed because where he was at was indeed Wakanda (we know in Secret Wars that Doomstadt was built on top of Wakanda or at least parts of it were). I shouldn't have said went back in time either because we don't know if it was time or reality, but we do know that when Reed recieved Molecule Man's powers and everything fell apart, when everyone was fading away he used the Gem to relocate.

In my personal opinion everyone except Reed, T'Challa, Owen, and possibly Doom perished, and with the powers those people were brought back no problem. The same way Susan and the rest of the FF were dead for 8 years, but they are back and things are fine. We know that these deceased characters can be pulled from "purgatory" and based on Contest of Champions it's not exclusive to Reed and Owen. Aside from Miles, we don't know why the other characters are randomly in the ANAD universe. Did Reed decide this was best for them?, did T'Challa accidently pull them in when he altered reality? We're no exactly sure. I believe that the same way Miles randomly ended up somewhere is the same way some other characters will end up somewhere. So we know that 1610 is gone, but maybe 1610 Iron Man was thrown into the mix of one of the random universes that Franklin imagined. In the end only time and editorial will tell.

When Strange says that much of Wakanda can be found in the Upper Kingdom, both in structure and function, I think he's talking about the Upper Kingdom of Egyptia. I can't remember where, but there's some mention of Egyptia being the result of merging the Upper and Lower kingdoms. Just like how the Domain of Apocalypse was originally under 4 rulers- Apocalypse merged the domains and became their baron; the 4 previous rulers his horsemen

[neohuey89]

When Strange says that much of Wakanda can be found in the Upper Kingdom, both in structure and function, I think he's talking about the Upper Kingdom of Egyptia. I can't remember where, but there's some mention of Egyptia being the result of merging the Upper and Lower kingdoms. Just like how the Domain of Apocalypse was originally under 4 rulers- Apocalypse merged the domains and became their baron; the 4 previous rulers his horsemen

http://brevoortformspring.tumblr.com...ars-plot-holes

this is what I'm referring to.

[Biclopcicle]

the part I disagree with is that there's an alternate history with the incursions. To me it's like if everyone see what happened, but then everyone jumped into a time machine before it happened and we have an alternate reality of what took place. Similar to what happened in Age of X. The incursions didn't happen in ANAD, they happened in 616, but since most of the characters are transferred from 616 they remember those things happening.

I guess that's where we are disagreeing. I don't think they were transported- i think everyone was recreated. If they were transported, then they should remember Battleworld too. No one remembers battleworld, but they do remember the incursions.

Unless you're saying that they were transported from the point of the final Incursion to ANAD marvel. In that case, the incursions still must have happened. ANAD universe has a past- it didn't just start at Reed's creation as time zero. When a universe is created, a whole timeline comes along with it, even though it's "starting" in the middle of things. Whatever people remember is the past of their native universe- if reality got altered such that the past did not include incursions, then they could not remember them. This could probably be explained better...anyway, in most fictions that I've encountered where the timeline is altered, no one can remember the old timeline. There's an episode of Star Trek:TNG where there's a recurring time loop and history keeps getting altered slightly each time. No one can remember the old timelines (outside a very vague sense of deja vu) but they pick up on a signal that passes through the iterations of the time loop and they signal themselves to change things so that they break free of the time loop.

Anyway, my point is that, if there's an alternate history, you shouldn't be able to remember the old, original history

[Biclopcicle]

http://brevoortformspring.tumblr.com...ars-plot-holes

this is what I'm referring to.

Right. I read that before- that chunk of land doesn't have to be from Wakanda, it just has to be from the universe where the gauntlet is native to. We are to believe that the land is a piece of Earth 616, but we know that the 616 gems were broken, before the events of Infinity. So there's a problem with that as well