Controversial Batfamily Opinions

[dietrich]

Of course fans are biased. Dick fans want Dick as next Batman - and other fans want maybe other characters as next Batman. In my mind every Robin is a legitimate heir/choice. I'm fine with Luke too for 5G. There will always be some fans who are butthurt because their favorite character wasn't chosen.

I don't see how Jason stabbing Tim and Damian saving Tim makes Tim a bad Batman. Would you claim that Damian is a bad Robin because he died or that Dick is a bad Nightwing because he nearly died in Forever Evil? Or that Bruce is a bad Batman because Bane broke his back?



Fyi, I wasn't talking about Batman666. Batman666 isn't evil. Chill a little bit. Every Robin has an evil version. That's DC - and DC earns their money with evil Batman and Robin versions.
I can't remember the comic, but I remember some panels about an evil Damian - and some screenshots from a movie.
I'm not a Damian fan, I don't know his whole DC history in every detail.



Winnick's Jason didn't have red hair, neither in BUtH nor in Red Hood: The Lost Days. Winnick also made it a point that Jason is not crazy while Morrison's Jason was completely nuts.
I hated what Morrison did with Jason, especially in comparison to Dick and Damian. Dick and Damian were pushed as "heroes" while Jason had to be the "evil Robin" in order to symbolize Dick and Damian as "good Robins". Damian and Jason are both murderer and traumatized characters but for some reason Dick "Heart of the family" Grayson decided that Damian deserves happiness and Jason punishment.

He's an anti-hero in my eyes, because he kills when necessary, fights crime and protects civilians/innocent people. Others still see him as hero because he only kills "bad guys". The easy way is to call Jason a vigilante. That's always true.
I also call everyone in the batfamily a vigilante because I don't consider anyone a "hero". For example, characters like Jason, Damian, Cass or Kate can never be heroes for me because they have killed in the past. That's not something that can be undone.
"Hero", "anti-hero", "anti-villain" and "villain" can be very vague depending on your own definition.

Nope it wasn't just Dick fans who thought Dick is the most likely. Even Batman fans who hated the idea of him being replaced.

Fans of other character's who aren't into the batman but are aware of the franchise. Tim Drake Fans, Flash fans, Superman fans, Iron Man fans they all had the same response when Morrison proposed the idea of Killing bruce. They are having this response right now on comic vine, here and they had the same response back on comic Bloc.

You are the the one that said anything about Tim being evil/bad. I never did. I actually don't know why you keep bringing up bad batmen in a conversation about legitimacy.

You are not the only fan to have this notion that grown up Damian will be evil or a Killer without any evidence. it's cool like I said once fans have their minds made up no amount of stories that counter that view will alter it.

Bias is very difficult to counter. Changing mind sets isn't easy hence why fans accept Dick Grayson as the legitimate heir.

Dick Grayson fans are about the only ones who don't want Dick to be Batman as can easily be seen in discussions and multiple threads on this very site.

Jason has always been considered and written as the bad Robin. Have you read the Batman stories after his death? Since then that's been the case and still is to a lesser extent so not exclusive to Morrison especially in a Batman title. What did you expect? Batman to be the villain? Even when Bruce is beating Jason with his fists or tormenting him mentally Batman is still the hero because he's the hero.

If Morrison was writing a Jason book and had anyone else as the hero then I might have issues or if he was the 1st to write a Jason that was willing to kill but he isn't so I have Zero issues.

Yeah we've had this vigilante conversation before and I'm not going to get dragged into another pointless conversation on how all heroes are vigilantes. Which then begs the question if they are all in the wrong then they are all Bad so why did you bring up the point about Robins being good or Bad Batmen depending on the writer.

They are all Bad Batmen by that logic? You see the futility.

[dietrich]

Jason was, what? 20 then? Barely a man. And he did most of his Red Hood stuff when he was 17 or so. He was 14 when he died. I wouldn't say that a teenager with already PTSD problems and an awful upbringing but for three years he passed with Bruce and Alfred—fighting crime, even—, then died, then was brainwashed/manipulated by some dark cult of assassins, is a "grownass man." Edit: He needed support and help, as any other victim, at the very least. Edit again: Because even when he was a perpetrator, he was also a victim.

Edit: More if you take into account that he was:
-Freshout of Arkham (or Blackgate, I don't remember which one was), where he was imprisoned with people that knew him.
-Saw that awful tape. Godlord, it was a tasteless move.
-Had just lost his father, because he still loved Bruce, despite of all.

Edit: and I'm someone who thinks that if you're old enough to vote, you are already half-way to maturity and should be responsible enough to know what you're doing. But that's not always the case, or not the case for every responsibility out there. I couldn't manage to be a judge, for example, even if I actually am a grownass adult, because I'm just not prepared to decide what's to become of the life of someone else.

Again how is that Dick's problem? Dick was dealing with the stress and traumas of losing a father and a brother falling apart and had just inherited a killer 10 year old that he was suddenly meant to care for. He had the weight of not just Batman's City but JL and wE.

You diagnosed Jason's issues but you didn't say in your answer why any of that was Dick's problem. Why Dick shouldn't put a law Breaker who threatened to exposed a 10year old's nudity on live Tv in Jail or have in thrown into Arkham.

The fact is ALL the Robins are victims and they all have issues they are always working through so I don't see why this is mentioned.

[Zaresh]

Again how is that Dick's problem? Dick was dealing with the stress and traumas of losing a father and a brother falling apart and had just inherited a killer 10 year old that he was suddenly meant to care for. He had the weight of not just Batman's City but JL and wE.

You diagnosed Jason's issues but you didn't say in your answer why any of that was Dick's problem. Why Dick shouldn't put a law Breaker who threatened to exposed a 10year old's nudity on live Tv in Jail or have in thrown into Arkham.

The fact is ALL the Robins are victims and they all have issues they are always working through so I don't see why this is mentioned.

I have already said a few times in this forum how Morrison's Jason was straight OOC and and an "evulz villain", so I'm not going to enter to discuss that nudity bit here. I'm going to talk about what happened in general terms.

So why we mention that Dick should've involved himself into helping Jason too? It's been mentioned because we were arguing that Damian was saved (as in emotional supported and helped) but Jason, who dealt with a very similar package of issues, were treated as another criminal of their gallery. When both Damian and Jason were family. Dick didn't know Damian, not really; and he had not much contact with Jason prior either. They both were almost strangers to him with heavy emotional issues and no supporting system and familial ties. But Dick got involved with Damian and his problems in a personal level, but he decided to straight ignore and reject Jason. I don't understand how is it that you guys can see how he could do one but had nothing to do with the other. Yeah, I hear: Jason was a grownass adult. But the thing is, he really wasn't: he was barely 20, and I already mentioned what I think of that statement.

Besides, Jason was dealing with the loss of a father too. A father that in his last message to him straight said Jason himself that Jason was too broken. Which is an awful thing to say to your child as your last words: that you're too broken and need to be fixed. With the many issues that Jason was already dealing with, going all psychotic and all, you'd expect for Dick to be tactful. He wasn't. I may be remembering BftC wrong, but I think he even used that to hurt Jason more and fight him.

And I know Dick was dealing with a lot in his plate, and he's human; and that's why it doesn't annoy me much. He was pretty tactless with Tim too, deciding to change his dynamic with the family without consulting Tim, at all. That was a bad move too. Dick was stressed, chose poorly. Decided he didn't want to deal with more and chose to treat Jason as just another villain. Ok, that's ok. But doesn't make Dick right: it makes him human.

Now, you can say that Jason didn't want help. @Valentonis posted that pic, that I think is from the end of BftC. And that is true too. And we all know that you cannot help someone who doesn't want help. Or... cannot help him much.

I'm going to bed, guys. I'm not going to reply until tomorrow late in the evening, most probably.

[Godlike13]

Again one is an adult responsible for his own actions, and one is a child someone legally had to be responsible for. You should understand the difference here. Jason isn't even that much younger then Dick, but yes why oh why didn't Dick help Jason as he shoots at and stabs them.

Dick did help Jason btw, by stopping his murderous rampage and saving him from Flamingo. Plus it wasn't just at the end of BftC, he again offered his hand to Jason in B&R too. But at that point it was out of Dicks hands.

[lemonpeace]

Duke as a character needs his own logo, sunlight-themed hero with a bat on his face is mixed messaging at best and shamelessly bad branding at worst

[Godlike13]

Duke should have blinking right and left lights

[TheRay]

Nightwing can have his own sidekicks at this point.

[Jackalope89]

Nightwing can have his own sidekicks at this point.

Agreed, but DC seems allergic to Dick and Kori being a thing. And having canonical kids.

[Restingvoice]

Damian is supposed to be Dick's sidekick, but DC says branding though.

Incidentally, DC can't seem to decide if they want a Robin by Batman or not, or to be exact, the marketing wants there to be a Batman and Robin brand, but the writers are divided between those who are more interested in writing Batman by himself, by their OCs, and by the actual Robin

I feel New 52 and Rebirth were when things get inconsistent.

Before that, Robin is always by Batman in both of his series and some cameo on Titans or League. Even when they separated by distance to Hudson University, Knightfall, or Bludhaven, there's a consistent number of appearances based on what are they doing and where. If they're away, they're away, if they're there, they're there.

In New 52 and Rebirth Robin appearances is confined to certain series, while in other series, he isn't mentioned at all, as if he doesn't even live in the same house.

[AmiMizuno]

Damian is supposed to be Dick's sidekick, but DC says branding though.

Incidentally, DC can't seem to decide if they want a Robin by Batman or not, or to be exact, the marketing wants there to be a Batman and Robin brand, but the writers are divided between those who are more interested in writing Batman by himself, by their OCs, and by the actual Robin

I feel New 52 and Rebirth were when things get inconsistent.

Before that, Robin is always by Batman in both of his series and some cameo on Titans or League. Even when they separated by distance to Hudson University, Knightfall, or Bludhaven, there's a consistent number of appearances based on what are they doing and where. If they're away, they're away, if they're there, they're there.

In New 52 and Rebirth Robin appearances is confined to certain series, while in other series, he isn't mentioned at all, as if he doesn't even live in the same house.

What makes you say Damian is supposed to be Dick's sidekick? I mean generally ronin is often seen as Batman sidekick

Agreed, but DC seems allergic to Dick and Kori being a thing. And having canonical kids.

Agreed. Especially after they use the couple in elsewhere stories and in animated media

[Aahz]

Jason isn't even that much younger then Dick

Pre Flashpoint he was closer to Tims age then to Dicks.

I anyway don't get why these stories are brought up again, they were imo allready out of character for the pre flashpoint version of Jason and even more so for the current that has been around since flashpoint.

[Aahz]

Winick's Jason was an antagonist, not exactly a villain. An Anti-Villain. He antagonized Bruce and didn bad deeds, but wasn't evil in nature, as you could expect of a straight villain. Actually, he was pretty grey and neutral outside that story under Winick, as far as I recall. And he was definitely an anti-hero in Dini's Countdown to Final Crisis, which was just before RIP and Battle for the Cowl, which is where Morrison's Jason comes from. When Winick got to write Jason again, later in Morrison's run, he was, again, (as far as I remember him) being rather gray more than evil, even if he was antagonistic still.

The last thing Jason did under Winick's pen pre count down was afaik provide intel for Dick in Outsiders about Black Lighting being framed for murder and being about to get murdered in prison.

[Restingvoice]

What makes you say Damian is supposed to be Dick's sidekick? I mean generally ronin is often seen as Batman sidekick

Dick made Damian Robin. They're the next generation of Batman and Robin. Sidekick of the original Batman grew up to become Batman himself and trained Batman's little boy.

[dietrich]

I have already said a few times in this forum how Morrison's Jason was straight OOC and and an "evulz villain", so I'm not going to enter to discuss that nudity bit here. I'm going to talk about what happened in general terms.

So why we mention that Dick should've involved himself into helping Jason too? It's been mentioned because we were arguing that Damian was saved (as in emotional supported and helped) but Jason, who dealt with a very similar package of issues, were treated as another criminal of their gallery. When both Damian and Jason were family. Dick didn't know Damian, not really; and he had not much contact with Jason prior either. They both were almost strangers to him with heavy emotional issues and no supporting system and familial ties. But Dick got involved with Damian and his problems in a personal level, but he decided to straight ignore and reject Jason. I don't understand how is it that you guys can see how he could do one but had nothing to do with the other. Yeah, I hear: Jason was a grownass adult. But the thing is, he really wasn't: he was barely 20, and I already mentioned what I think of that statement.

Besides, Jason was dealing with the loss of a father too. A father that in his last message to him straight said Jason himself that Jason was too broken. Which is an awful thing to say to your child as your last words: that you're too broken and need to be fixed. With the many issues that Jason was already dealing with, going all psychotic and all, you'd expect for Dick to be tactful. He wasn't. I may be remembering BftC wrong, but I think he even used that to hurt Jason more and fight him.

And I know Dick was dealing with a lot in his plate, and he's human; and that's why it doesn't annoy me much. He was pretty tactless with Tim too, deciding to change his dynamic with the family without consulting Tim, at all. That was a bad move too. Dick was stressed, chose poorly. Decided he didn't want to deal with more and chose to treat Jason as just another villain. Ok, that's ok. But doesn't make Dick right: it makes him human.

Now, you can say that Jason didn't want help. @Valentonis posted that pic, that I think is from the end of BftC. And that is true too. And we all know that you cannot help someone who doesn't want help. Or... cannot help him much.

I'm going to bed, guys. I'm not going to reply until tomorrow late in the evening, most probably.

Nope Nope nope. Dick has zero responsibility to Jason especially when Jason had tried to wipe out his family and was a danger to innocents everywhere. Jason tried to kill Tim, Damian and Dick himself. Killed lots of others in Gotham.

Locking him up was the best way to keep him from hurting more family and citizens. Dick's 1st responsibility was to family that was why he had him locked up.

At least Dick did him that much Bruce just threatens it and does nothing to help. Jason for his actions since he came back needed to be grounded. Just like Bruce shipped Damian away when he endangered his family [Tim]

Dick started helping Damian because Damian had already left his mother and was working as an independent hero in Gotham. He was seeking redemption already not acting out.

Jason and Damian where at very different stages and were different things which is why you can't expect Dick to treat them the same and why he shouldn't.

[dietrich]

Damian is supposed to be Dick's sidekick, but DC says branding though.

Incidentally, DC can't seem to decide if they want a Robin by Batman or not, or to be exact, the marketing wants there to be a Batman and Robin brand, but the writers are divided between those who are more interested in writing Batman by himself, by their OCs, and by the actual Robin

I feel New 52 and Rebirth were when things get inconsistent.

Before that, Robin is always by Batman in both of his series and some cameo on Titans or League. Even when they separated by distance to Hudson University, Knightfall, or Bludhaven, there's a consistent number of appearances based on what are they doing and where. If they're away, they're away, if they're there, they're there.

In New 52 and Rebirth Robin appearances is confined to certain series, while in other series, he isn't mentioned at all, as if he doesn't even live in the same house.

That is not true at all.

DC likes the name and promoting them as a duo but they don't actually want the two always working together.
Tim was created to be an independent Robin and since the 90's Robin hasn't been a regular in the Bat books.

Before the new 52 Batman was in Robin's solo but not the other way around.