Wonder Woman #21 - Discussion & Spoilers

[Mel Dyer]

I really enjoyed Cheetah's characterization in this issue. She's so b_tchy towards everyone - it was hilarious! The ending was quite nice with Veronica accepting Diana's help to find her daughter. Ares' appearance and predicament surprised me. I wonder what his grand scheme is in all of this?

Veronica or Diana - one will sacrifice something to save Izzy, ..but, which one will it be? Will Veronica die, at the end of this, ..or will she become Diana's ally and replace Bar Minerva on Team Wonder Woman?

[sakuyamons]

Veronica or Diana - one will sacrifice something to save Izzy, ..but, which one will it be? Will Veronica die, at the end of this, ..or will she become Diana's ally and replace Bar Minerva on Team Wonder Woman?

After all this mythological nonsense that Ronnie and Izzy went through, I think that Veronica will step the hell out Wondy's world asap

[PopQuezy]

Welcome to the WW world! Yes, I understand that this Poison might be underwhelming, I wouldn't mind if she stayed as a soldier, but that she had a control over toxins. And I really dig your idea, since the first Swan was created by Ares.

Thank you!

As for the comment referring to Cale leaving Wonder Woman's world (sorry, I'm not sure how to multi quote yet), after all the years she spent secretly plotting against Diana, I'm not so sure it'll be easy for Cale to leave. I mean after a while a person stops doing evil things because they have to, and they start doing evil things because they want to. Dr. Cyber is still also dead because of how Diana's arrival affected Cale's life. Although Cale has her daughter back now, she still lost years with Izzy as a result of Diana, and she lost the crucial years of Izzy's childhood. She can never get those back. I think the foundation for Cale to stay in Diana's life as a rogue is still quite strong and I would love to see it continue.

[Outside_85]

For eons Sauron had a pleasing and charismatic form. It was only after his body was destroyed in a cataclysm - which he brought about - that he was no longer capable of making himself look attractive.

I think the view that evil characters - supervillains or even gods - can't be physically attractive is kind of arbitrary. As someone pointed out, a lot a evil female supervillains are pinup-level bombshells. Why not the males?

I have read the Simarillion, but I was referring to how they both always... when they did appear, wore armor that hid everything.

And this is where I would ask... why are they only 'attractive' when they look like they spend the day strutting down a catwalk in Milan?
I mean, take into account that nearly every male hero or villain in comics can present a 6-pack... isn't it really only the residents of Arkham who really look ugly? Is Zod, for example, an ugly dude? Is the First Born (if he'd stop scowling)? I'd very much argue Lex Luthor definitely is not.

[marhawkman]

I think Vandal Savage would be considered handsome.

then you have guys like Lobo who go for the "rugged" look, but it's simply a different type of handsome.

[Lex Luthor]

I really liked Cheetah in Year One but I don't like her much anymore the emotion and relationship between her and diana feels kind of forced I think I'd rather she just be a straight up villain because i can't enjoy that about her since she's getting mistreated all the time.

[numberthirty]

Col. Maru is kind of a dud, so I hope a future writer channels the Luke/Jimenez version somewhere down the line. It's not a big deal, just a disappointment.

That being said, I'm disappointed with this Colonel Poison. So, I'm pretty new to the Wonder Woman mythos, and one of the reasons I decided to start reading this comic and even bought trades of some past comics and did Wiki research on the characters, supporting cast and villains is because I am absolutely in love with Elena Anaya's version of Dr. Poison in the upcoming movie. I have not seen the movie, but from the very first Comic Con trailer, I loved the look and the pained determination the actress displays through her eyes. I researched the character, and when I saw that Poison was going to get her own issue for the Truth story arc, it was one of the main reasons I decided to dive into the Truth arc and consequently the Godwatch arc, as well. Sadly, this Poison is not memorable at all, and I'm really hoping the next writer does something a lot more exciting with her. I want her to be creating toxins that drive people mad, gases that force people to tell the truth or creating chemical warfare. This bland soldier with a rifle has not lived up to my hopes for the character, and I sincerely hope whoever writes Wonder Woman next allows this character to be great.

I really liked Cheetah in Year One but I don't like her much anymore the emotion and relationship between her and diana feels kind of forced I think I'd rather she just be a straight up villain because i can't enjoy that about her since she's getting mistreated all the time.

It's interesting that a run that was supposed to build the new foundation for writers going forward is getting this sort of a reaction.

[Lex Luthor]

It's interesting that a run that was supposed to build the new foundation for writers going forward is getting this sort of a reaction.

Nothing is perfect just because i complain about some things about an issue/run doesn't mean its not doing a good job in other ways. The point of him building this foundation was to let us remember who the main villains/cast are. Other writers are going to write the characters differently no matter how much we like or dislike the way he writes a character thats how comics have always worked.

[Doctor Bifrost]

And this is where I would ask... why are they only 'attractive' when they look like they spend the day strutting down a catwalk in Milan?

I can't speak to that, since I neither said it nor think it. But then I have eclectic tastes - I thought Roger, formerly Porcupine, as recently presented in Spider-Woman, was very cute - a "bear," in the modern parlance - and I was a little disappointed to find out that he wasn't gay. (He's Jessica's boyfriend now.)

[Outside_85]

I think Vandal Savage would be considered handsome.

then you have guys like Lobo who go for the "rugged" look, but it's simply a different type of handsome.

I agree on Savage, of the later periods where he appears in grand ball rooms and such... not quite sure about the Demon Knights Savage however since that seemed to be more about his boasting and rugged charms that made him attractive, since he otherwise looked like a brigand, which he also was.

Lobo... I don't think I would use the word handsome for him, likewise I think the ladies he does attract are of a certain taste, plus I can't imagine Lobo has anything less than a powerful odor around him considering how many cigars he smokes and how many times he wakes up with a hangover in a backalley somewhere before heading back to the bar. But then again, I suspect that when Giffen took over and made Lobo what he is now, he took a very long look at Lemmy Kilmister, who also had a very personal dress sense, facial warts, could drink a bottle of Jack D a night between gigs, smoked, had a condition that meant he mumbled a lot when he was just having a normal conversation... and somehow still managed to attract more women than just about any other musician.

[SiegePerilous02]

It's interesting that a run that was supposed to build the new foundation for writers going forward is getting this sort of a reaction.

Why, because some of is don't like a character or two? Since when does any mainstream comic book get unanimous praise on every single aspect?

[Nyssane]

And this is where I would ask... why are they only 'attractive' when they look like they spend the day strutting down a catwalk in Milan?
I mean, take into account that nearly every male hero or villain in comics can present a 6-pack... isn't it really only the residents of Arkham who really look ugly? Is Zod, for example, an ugly dude? Is the First Born (if he'd stop scowling)? I'd very much argue Lex Luthor definitely is not.

There's attractive (Zod and Luthor would apply... the First Born is absolutely not attractive IMO) and then there's sexy. The majority of female villains fall on the sexy spectrum because femme fatales are a straight man's fantasy. There are very few male villains who are actually sexy, villains who use their sex appeal to enhance their manipulation and deception. Ares in this comic is depicted very sexually – nude and in chains, and yeah, he's drawn muscular but not overly so. The last shot of Ares is something that you really don't see with male characters in comics.

[Dr. Poison]

Why, because some of is don't like a character or two? Since when does any mainstream comic book get unanimous praise on every single aspect?

Exactly. I've never read a "perfect" comic run by any creator but as long as the creator injects more good than bad into a run, that's the important thing for me. Here's a short list of past Wonder Woman writers who I feel have injected more good than bad into the Wonder-mythos:


Jimenez - Trevor Barnes was the glaring scar of this run but otherwise this run is my favorite of all time.
Heinberg - Short but sweet. He brought back so many cool Wonder-rogues and updated them for the times.
Simone - While I didn't care for the last half of her run, there wasn't anything destructive to the Wonder-mythos about it.
Finch - I hated her versions of Donna Troy, Aegeus, and Dr. Poison but still the run offered more good than bad IMO especially given the mess she was left with.

[sakuyamons]

Exactly. I've never read a "perfect" comic run by any creator but as long as the creator injects more good than bad into a run, that's the important thing for me. Here's a short list of past Wonder Woman writers who I feel have injected more good than bad into the Wonder-mythos:


Jimenez - Trevor Barnes was the glaring scar of this run but otherwise this run is my favorite of all time.
Heinberg - Short but sweet. He brought back so many cool Wonder-rogues and updated them for the times.
Simone - While I didn't care for the last half of her run, there wasn't anything destructive to the Wonder-mythos about it.
Finch - I hated her versions of Donna Troy, Aegeus, and Dr. Poison but still the run offered more good than bad IMO especially given the mess she was left with.

I liked Trevor, but just not as Diana's boyfriend but yeah I agree with you there. Rucka's first run is my second favorite and I'd say that Cale was the weak part of his run while on this one she got real character development. Hell, I'm sure even in the Perez run you could find things that people didn't like.

Other than Poison not doing much, I like the Rogues gallery a lot imo.

[Outside_85]

Exactly. I've never read a "perfect" comic run by any creator but as long as the creator injects more good than bad into a run, that's the important thing for me. Here's a short list of past Wonder Woman writers who I feel have injected more good than bad into the Wonder-mythos:


Jimenez - Trevor Barnes was the glaring scar of this run but otherwise this run is my favorite of all time.
Heinberg - Short but sweet. He brought back so many cool Wonder-rogues and updated them for the times.
Simone - While I didn't care for the last half of her run, there wasn't anything destructive to the Wonder-mythos about it.
Finch - I hated her versions of Donna Troy, Aegeus, and Dr. Poison but still the run offered more good than bad IMO especially given the mess she was left with.

You are being very unprecise about what good most of these actually did

There's attractive (Zod and Luthor would apply... the First Born is absolutely not attractive IMO) and then there's sexy. The majority of female villains fall on the sexy spectrum because femme fatales are a straight man's fantasy. There are very few male villains who are actually sexy, villains who use their sex appeal to enhance their manipulation and deception. Ares in this comic is depicted very sexually – nude and in chains, and yeah, he's drawn muscular but not overly so. The last shot of Ares is something that you really don't see with male characters in comics.

I have to say that the femme fatale types of characters who are sexy are usually that because they compensate for their lack of physical power contra that of their opponent (ala Catwoman) or because it simply amuses them or suits their wiles (like Circe and Poison Ivy). (And ofc in comics there is the general issue of why female heroes and villains choose the skimpiest and often impractical outfits).
By contrast I think we don't see men in this position often because we blokes tend to be primitive enough to think that if we are outmatched, then we can just try and brute force our way out if we dont just curl up and hope it wont be so bad. And perhaps this whats most jarring of all, that this is the God of War... he's the prototypical man who thinks everything can be sorted out by breaking things. So it's the wrong character thats doing this... like Zeus being depicted as terrified of women.

And I don't know, but while I know depiction of female and male heroes and villains often cater to the male fantasy... the women are sexy and the men are powerful. If this was to be sorted and balanced out, wouldn't it be more ideal for comics to start depicting characters (male and female) with more natural but varied body types rather than well... this?
Reminds me this is kinda why I took a liking to Aleka, she wasn't part of the normal comicbook beauty ideal in that she was a huge bruiser who definitely seemed to know how to intimidate simply with her size (I'd definitely be more worried about her than I would Big Barda). Io now has some of those same qualities when Sharp draws her with those massive arms of hers, but unlike Aleka I currently don't see Io as a potential villain. (I remember that way back in the day I speculated that Aleka could have been a reimagined Giganta.)