Starfox Appeciation!

[Dermie]

It was to stop Eros from using his power, which he tried to do - which is interesting because that implies his power usually works on Thanos, though later Englehart suggested that it has never worked on Thanos (or at least that Thanos was able to find a way to guard against it), which is more interesting to me. Anyway, yeah, he tried to use it. The art implies that it works based on his smile. We've seen that before in that Cap sausagefest as well as in the first time we see him use this "mystery power" on the bank robber. Though later Byrne seems to suggest that it's through his eyes - Nebula says "damn your eyes!" which I think 'wears' better, so to speak, since the classic trope leans more towards eyes being the source of psionics, etc.

I don't think Nebula's "damn your eyes" curse was meant to imply anything about the use of his powers--I've heard that expression being used as a curse in other cases as well, and there was nothing eye specific going on.

In terms of Eros and his mouth (ok, this is going to veer into guttermind innuendo quickly...) I don't think its so much that his smile is the 'delivery method' for his pleasure zap or anything like that. I think its that as Starfox uses his pleasure zap on their brain, to make people more suggestible, his talented tongue charms them in the right direction.

But Eros's powers just make someone feel good/calm/painless/high/etc. It's the combination of that with his silver tongue and way with words that makes the villains lay down their weapons. So if he can't talk, his powers aren't going to do anything that will help him.

Exactly! At least, not in the more subtle sense. He could still try for a full-power pleasure zap to overload the pleasure centre and knock Thanos out. But with the Gauntlet, he'd almost certainly have been immune to that. And even IF by some chance he managed it, there was still Mephisto on hand, and I seriously doubt Starfox's powers would work on him.

. . . But Thanos had the Infinity Gauntlet. It would go without saying that he'd be totally and completely immune to Eros's powers in that state anyway. So yeah, it was further torture. And also to show Eros how powerless he is. (and probably also 'always have been and always will be against Proud Thanos, the Better Brother')

Yep, the torture element was definitely in play there--just like when he kept Nebula alive but in complete agony, on the drink of death. The people closest to him are the ones whose suffering Thanos enjoys the most.

[CaTigeReptile]

And Dane had Sersi in his head. If he had been screwing Crystal, Sersi would have been along for the ride. Not the kind of threesome you'd want!

*back on topic* Eros, on the other hand, would probably go for that.

So THAT'S what was going on with Eros, Elysius and Mar-Vell.

Edit:

Yep, the torture element was definitely in play there--just like when he kept Nebula alive but in complete agony, on the drink of death. The people closest to him are the ones whose suffering Thanos enjoys the most.

With Nebula, since she wasn't actually related to him, I thought it was more like him just showing her kind of like "hahaha, well you WANT to be related to me, so I'll treat you like you are" mixed with a bit of "how dare you presume to be related to Proud Thanos, thus you will suffer the most" kind of thing.

p.s. omg Dane's hair DANE NO PLS I mean and I LIKE guys with long hair and all that, but DANE??

[Hekabolos]

Yep. An earring. UGH. Attachment 7665

NO. Nope. Uh uh.

He and Crystal never really had a full blown affair, IIRC. Never had a chance, unless they managed a quickie while prisoners of the Kree. Still wasn't okay. Affairs of the heart are as bad as screwing around.

Correct, they never actually had an affair. They only had one passionate kiss, really. Things didn't end up going further than that, since Crystal was trying to decide whether her marriage could still be salvaged, or whether it was time to call it quits and then pursue something with Dane.

Yes, they never had an actual affair, (I would argue that affairs of the heart are much worse than physical affairs, however) they did flirt aggressively with the idea though. I think nothing came of it mostly because their own better judgement prevented it, but also because Sersi was an absolute MASTER at shutting them down, even before the mind link.

I truly miss Sersi. She needs to come back just as much as Eros.

I don't think Nebula's "damn your eyes" curse was meant to imply anything about the use of his powers--I've heard that expression being used as a curse in other cases as well, and there was nothing eye specific going on.

In terms of Eros and his mouth (ok, this is going to veer into guttermind innuendo quickly...) I don't think its so much that his smile is the 'delivery method' for his pleasure zap or anything like that. I think its that as Starfox uses his pleasure zap on their brain, to make people more suggestible, his talented tongue charms them in the right direction.

That's always the way I've envisioned his abilities working. As though his pleasure power has no real fine tuning, and just makes people feel good. Eros then needs to talk them into a more specific response. It actually makes a lot of sense that way, since he is known for being lazy about developing any of his powers. Not just his exclusive one, but even the general psionic powers all Eternals have.

Also, your explanation of it was delightfully filthy.

p.s. omg Dane's hair DANE NO PLS I mean and I LIKE guys with long hair and all that, but DANE??

The 90s spared no one. NO ONE.

[Dermie]

Yes, they never had an actual affair, (I would argue that affairs of the heart are much worse than physical affairs, however)

Hmm. I'd say that depends on how you look at it. One can't control whom they develop feelings for--it just happens. However, one CAN control how they choose to act on those feelings, and whether or not they cheat.

they did flirt aggressively with the idea though. I think nothing came of it mostly because their own better judgement prevented it, but also because Sersi was an absolute MASTER at shutting them down, even before the mind link.

Prior to the mind link, they didn't actually have anything going on between them--Dane had feelings for Crys, but he never admitted them to her until after the mind-link. But you're right that Sersi interference would be a part of why they never got together. I wouldn't have been surprised if the issue that ended with that first/only kiss between them led to off-panel sex between issues...if it hadn't been for the fact that both Sersi and the evil Vision were both watching them at the time. Anti-Vision may have been satisfied to just watch them...but Sersi would almost certainly have interfered.

The other thing to remember with the whole Dane/Crys situation is that Crys and Pietro WERE separated at the time. They may have still been technically married, but they were not actually together--so 'affair' is a somewhat more subjective concept in that case.

Anyway, back to Starfox...

Also, your explanation of it was delightfully filthy.

LOL. Thank you.

The 90s spared no one. NO ONE.

In that particular image the hair was TOO long...but I didn't mind the longer hair Dane had in AVENGERS in the Sersi-Dane-Crys triangle era. It kinda worked for him (and if you liked Dane's build in that scene of him, Eros and Cap stripping down for their shower, don't forget about his near-naked workout scene in AVENGERS #350!)

[Hekabolos]

Hmm. I'd say that depends on how you look at it. One can't control whom they develop feelings for--it just happens. However, one CAN control how they choose to act on those feelings, and whether or not they cheat.

Prior to the mind link, they didn't actually have anything going on between them--Dane had feelings for Crys, but he never admitted them to her until after the mind-link. But you're right that Sersi interference would be a part of why they never got together. I wouldn't have been surprised if the issue that ended with that first/only kiss between them led to off-panel sex between issues...if it hadn't been for the fact that both Sersi and the evil Vision were both watching them at the time. Anti-Vision may have been satisfied to just watch them...but Sersi would almost certainly have interfered.

The other thing to remember with the whole Dane/Crys situation is that Crys and Pietro WERE separated at the time. They may have still been technically married, but they were not actually together--so 'affair' is a somewhat more subjective concept in that case.

Oh for sure. I think what makes emotional affairs seem worse to me is the fact that they are uncontrollable. Like, as the offended party, you have to live with the knowledge that you lost someone without being able to stop it at all. Speaking of: for me, the only good part of that storyline was the work done on Pietro, and the toll it took on him, for that very reason. He knew he was losing his wife, and couldn't stop it. I do admit though that individual mileage may vary on where the line is when it comes to cheating.

That said, I don't actually think Crystal cheated with Dane. Kiss aside, the affair (in the sense of "a situation that occurred") was all pretty innocent. A lot of yearning glances and frustrated conversations and both of them refused to act on their feelings. And yes, I agree that Sersi and her reactions are the best barometer of that. Given the head space she was in at the time, had Dane and Crystal gone beyond that one kiss, I feel doubtful she would have allowed Crystal to survive unscathed. The unfortunate part of the situation was that it put them into a position where an affair was possible, and seemed to be inevitable until the Ultraverse came calling. None of them came out looking very good.

Anyway, back to Starfox...

Ha. I justify this conversation by thinking of it as being all about desire. Dane and Crystal's desire for each other, Sersi's unrequited desire for Dane, and Pietro's desire for his wife. If you were to look in a dictionary (at least an Ancient Greek one) the definition it would give for eros is desire. So...totally on topic!

don't forget about his near-naked workout scene in AVENGERS #350!)

How could anyone forget! Those black spandex shorts were my first introduction to Dane. It's been love ever since.

*This is where, if I were better with the Googles, I would add a picture of Dane in his sexy workout gear.

[MollyBarton]

Oh, yes.
90s knight 1.jpg

90s knight 3.jpg

Boy, the artists made him hairy in the 90s. In the 80s and now, he had no chest hair. In the 90s, he put Wolverine to shame.

Dane really, really needs his own appreciation thread. He can't totally take over this one!

[CaTigeReptile]

I truly miss Sersi. She needs to come back just as much as Eros.

Yes. She does.

That's always the way I've envisioned his abilities working. As though his pleasure power has no real fine tuning, and just makes people feel good. Eros then needs to talk them into a more specific response. It actually makes a lot of sense that way, since he is known for being lazy about developing any of his powers. Not just his exclusive one, but even the general psionic powers all Eternals have.

Aaactually, he does fine-tune them and knows how to, in those words exactly!



I said it before and I'll say it again: I find the "Eros hasn't developed his powers because he's lazy" excuse to be a boring cop-out. It's never actually been said in any of his comics even if it's on his wiki bios. The "he hasn't developed his powers because he's afraid to turn into his brother" excuse is a bit better; however because of the allegory involved with Eros being inherently weaker than Thanatos, and of each brother being what the other brother is not, it would be more meaningful if Eros simply didn't have the potential/something was keeping him from developing it, or if all of his potential lay in the empathic/psionic side of things. His powers are, well, quite powerful though specific, working on the Silver Surfer, Nova and Maestro with ease; it's implied his powers can penetrate any shields made of Quantum energy - and again that crazy mind-meld thing he did on Firelord and Nebula (I mean I know that technically when a power is only shown one time then maybe it shouldn't be taken seriously, but it's just really interesting and I think it suits him well).

The empathy, though only mentioned like three times, is super-interesting to me and I'd like to see that play a bigger role in his character development, especially since it further differentiates him from his brother on a fundamental level - and because despite what anyone says, emotion and emotionalism are considered (feminine) weakness in our society. (Unless they're "MANLY" emotions like anger/rage, apathy or jealousy, of course.)

In this panel it's shown that his empathy is so sensitive that he can actually identify and find specific people with it (in this case, Heater Delight).



Maybe it's prohibitively sensitive. Maybe that's the reason why he can't do all of the crazy powerful things like other Eternals - he expends too much energy blocking out other people's emotions. Hell, maybe he tells everyone he's lazy, but that isn't really the truth.

Hmm, it would actually almost sound like a disability. Absolutely by no means would such a thing be possibly considered representation given that it's all about superpowers, but it's an avenue to explore the feelings of inadequacy and the frustration of being treated differently and with pity like you're an invalid or that you have no potential. Could even be why Mentor spoils him so much and doesn't care what he does!

Why do I waste my time thinking so much about this character and about things that will never ever be canon??? I should just write fanfiction. Or corner someone at Marvel and be that person.

I also agree that his pleasure powers don't necessarily require any kind of eye contact or anything and that it's brain-to-brain. I was only really referring to them in terms of how he uses them to persuade people - not how he can use them to overwhelm people - because he was trying to persuade his brother, which is why I think Thanos took away his mouth. Eros knew his powers weren't going to work to overwhelm his brother, and Thanos was already pleased so adding more to his pleasure would probably just make him more sadistic, really.

Also, your explanation of it was delightfully filthy.

Agreed - as it should be when talking about Eros.

The 90s spared no one. NO ONE.

Starfox did okay, which I suppose is sort of an argument against "modernizing" costumes . . .

Edit: Oh, I forgot a question I wanted to ask a bit ago.

If the Eternals' madness is caused by being away from the Hive Mind, how come all of the Titans aren't insane? Does it have something to do with the . . . uh . . . I vaguely recall some second power-up the Eternals got after the original Titans were, well, chased away to Titan, which explains why the Titanian Eternals aren't as powerful, but maybe that also means they aren't as dependent upon the Unimind (even though we know they are capable of it)?

Ah, the Unimind. I wonder - if Eros and Thanos merged into a Unimind (just like their father and his brother before them), would they turn into Adam Warlock? Would Thanos grow the Magus 'fro? He's already purple . . .

What am I even talking about anymore??

[Hekabolos]

Oh, yes.
90s knight 1.jpg

90s knight 3.jpg

Boy, the artists made him hairy in the 90s. In the 80s and now, he had no chest hair. In the 90s, he put Wolverine to shame.

Dane really, really needs his own appreciation thread. He can't totally take over this one!

Ah yes. There he is. Dane really does need his own thread. I guess he's been appropriated by the British heroes thread, but that's not fair. He deserves his own. One where all his beefcake images can be collected, for easy reference.

Aaactually, he does fine-tune them and knows how to, in those words exactly!



I said it before and I'll say it again: I find the "Eros hasn't developed his powers because he's lazy" excuse to be a boring cop-out. It's never actually been said in any of his comics even if it's on his wiki bios. The "he hasn't developed his powers because he's afraid to turn into his brother" excuse is a bit better; however because of the allegory involved with Eros being inherently weaker than Thanatos, and of each brother being what the other brother is not, it would be more meaningful if Eros simply didn't have the potential/something was keeping him from developing it, or if all of his potential lay in the empathic/psionic side of things. His powers are, well, quite powerful though specific, working on the Silver Surfer, Nova and Maestro with ease; it's implied his powers can penetrate any shields made of Quantum energy - and again that crazy mind-meld thing he did on Firelord and Nebula (I mean I know that technically when a power is only shown one time then maybe it shouldn't be taken seriously, but it's just really interesting and I think it suits him well).

Huh. Where is that panel from? The art is...interesting. With that though, I have no good answer for why he's been said to be lazy about his powers. It is a bit lazy, because it means that writers don't have to think too hard about what can be done with his power. It's also contrary to expectations. You would expect someone who has spent his life opposing Thanos would want to be at the top of his game for that.

The empathy, though only mentioned like three times, is super-interesting to me and I'd like to see that play a bigger role in his character development, especially since it further differentiates him from his brother on a fundamental level - and because despite what anyone says, emotion and emotionalism are considered (feminine) weakness in our society. (Unless they're "MANLY" emotions like anger/rage, apathy or jealousy, of course.)

In this panel it's shown that his empathy is so sensitive that he can actually identify and find specific people with it (in this case, Heater Delight).

Empathy would be an interesting outgrowth of his powers, as well as sort of expected when his already emotion based power is combined with the Eternal's general telepathic abilities. It's interesting that he was able to use it to identify people, as though each individual's emotions are unique to them. Which...duh, but lots of people experience pleasure at any given time. Eros here seems able to distinguish one expression of pleasure from another. Has the ability always been related to pleasure, or has he sensed other emotions as well? I don't think I've read any appearance where he's used the ability.

And yes, everything about Eros' powerset places him in traditionally "feminine" spheres of activity. I suspect it probably has something to do with why he is so underused: his power marks him as "other", a male in the female sphere and it wouldn't surprise me if many past writers were uncomfortable writing him. It's why you so rarely see male telepaths, unless they're the sort who use it to dominate and control others like Mesmero and the Purple Man (I'm not sure if either of them are actually classed as telepaths but they manipulate minds/emotions in similar fashion). Incidentally what male telepaths there are are almost all villains, to make their status as "other" more obvious. Other than Professor X, I can't even think of another male telepathic hero, and he was handicapped (most times) so as to make it clear he was "weak".

Starfox did okay, which I suppose is sort of an argument against "modernizing" costumes . . .

OK fine. ONE person got away unscathed.

Edit: Oh, I forgot a question I wanted to ask a bit ago.

If the Eternals' madness is caused by being away from the Hive Mind, how come all of the Titans aren't insane? Does it have something to do with the . . . uh . . . I vaguely recall some second power-up the Eternals got after the original Titans were, well, chased away to Titan, which explains why the Titanian Eternals aren't as powerful, but maybe that also means they aren't as dependent upon the Unimind (even though we know they are capable of it)?

I assume it has something to do with the difference between the two branches of the family. Plus, Earth Eternals seem to be more likely to go out and do things and acquire experiences away from each other, while Titan Eternals spend more time on Titan with other Eternals. It may be that the problem affects them both, but at different rates given their different lifestyles. Who really knows, though. Even on good days I don't understand the Unimind.

[CaTigeReptile]

Huh. Where is that panel from? The art is...interesting. With that though, I have no good answer for why he's been said to be lazy about his powers. It is a bit lazy, because it means that writers don't have to think too hard about what can be done with his power. It's also contrary to expectations. You would expect someone who has spent his life opposing Thanos would want to be at the top of his game for that.

It's from Solo Avengers #21. Yeah, it looks almost like Archie. I would say that him being lazy could be a convenient character fault, but I feel like Mentor would not let that happen - it would be Mentor's character fault too if there isn't some other explanation for the explanation, so to speak.

Empathy would be an interesting outgrowth of his powers, as well as sort of expected when his already emotion based power is combined with the Eternal's general telepathic abilities. It's interesting that he was able to use it to identify people, as though each individual's emotions are unique to them. Which...duh, but lots of people experience pleasure at any given time. Eros here seems able to distinguish one expression of pleasure from another. Has the ability always been related to pleasure, or has he sensed other emotions as well? I don't think I've read any appearance where he's used the ability.

He can sense other emotions too - at least that's what I gathered from this dialogue in Celestial Quest, given the way he says it:

And yes, everything about Eros' powerset places him in traditionally "feminine" spheres of activity. I suspect it probably has something to do with why he is so underused: his power marks him as "other", a male in the female sphere and it wouldn't surprise me if many past writers were uncomfortable writing him. It's why you so rarely see male telepaths, unless they're the sort who use it to dominate and control others like Mesmero and the Purple Man (I'm not sure if either of them are actually classed as telepaths but they manipulate minds/emotions in similar fashion). Incidentally what male telepaths there are are almost all villains, to make their status as "other" more obvious. Other than Professor X, I can't even think of another male telepathic hero, and he was handicapped (most times) so as to make it clear he was "weak".

The following is long and redundant, sorry:

I wouldn't be surprised if in general, male readers and writers are probably more comfortable with the idea of a female telepath, especially mind-controller, because of the pervasive cultural ideas that: women aren't threats, women can't actually hurt men, women are vulnerable/fragile (as telepaths tend to be), women are pure/innocent/inherently Good, women are compassionate, Women's Intuition, women aren't physical or violent, and that no man would choose to relate to a female or feminine character. Therefore, female heroes are allowed to be telepaths. Their burden and struggle as psionics is basically viewed as the burden/struggle of having the misfortune of being a woman.

Male readers and writers, I assume, are presumed to be repulsed by male telepaths because of the following societal tropes: men are dangerous and threatening (especially to women), men are tough and physical, men are not intuitive/emotional, men corrupt purity, men are controlling and always in control. They're always villains because of how men are presumed to all be opportunistic rapists in part, I think. They're never heroes because telepathy is considered feminine, and a male with feminine traits is to be ridiculed, not empathized with or admired.

And so the fact that Eros isn't even a telepath, which is already so linked with vulnerability and that fabled "women's intuition," but is an empath, which is specific to emotions, which are the weakest most feminine things that exist - it's exactly as you said. Society tells men that such a man is so taboo that he simply cannot exist, because he's basically the most humiliating, unmanly and unheroic thing a man can be, and society says no man wants to read about that, because the very prospect makes them uncomfortable.

A few pages back there was a convo about the sexuality part of all of this:

This all relates back to sexuality, too, which of course was one of the first conversations in this thread. Why did people think Eros was a creepy date-rapist? The logic was as follows: 1) He has somewhat vague pleasure powers 2) he likes to have sex 3) He is a man and therefore must be using his psionic powers to rape women. (I'm not saying "people" because the people who believe this do not consider that an ancient universe-travelling alien might not be conventionally cisgender heteronormative).

I know I've talked about it before, but the idea that his 'repulsively undesireably feminine' empathy - otherwise known as heightened emotional sensitivity - would give him an advantage in the 'playing field' doesn't even come to mind when there's also the vague pleasure powers to choose from. I think it's kind of related to the other phenomenon that so many women are attracted to well-groomed, pretty men, yet such men are considered extremely unmanly and are ridiculed by other men. Also, of course, the idea that women don't actually ever want to have sex, much less a casual, no-strings-attached hookup.

That is probably the single biggest reason why I love Eros. It's complete gender trope subversion: he's got all the 'feminine' traits - physically attractive, sexual, emotional, bubbly, hedonistic, dramatic - but is the hero, where as the 'noble masculine' Thanos - devoted, intellectual, rational, strong-willed, talented, stoic, not given to excess nor to temptation - is the villain.

I think that's why so many of his fans (that I know) are female, too, because he's a breath of fresh air and provides them with their own version/outlet of the sexual fantasies and power/protective-urge fantasies that are linked with female "seductress" type characters and female telepath/empath characters. He's like throwing het females a bone. Gay dudes too, of course.

I think I've said all of this before, sorry.

Here you can have another butt to make up for it.

[MollyBarton]

Ah yes. There he is. Dane really does need his own thread. I guess he's been appropriated by the British heroes thread, but that's not fair. He deserves his own. One where all his beefcake images can be collected, for easy reference.

He needs a thread like Nightcrawler's in the X-Books forum. Lots of goodies there. And since it looks like he's a big part of Avengers World, now's the time to do one!

So who wants to start it?

This all relates back to sexuality, too, which of course was one of the first conversations in this thread. Why did people think Eros was a creepy date-rapist? The logic was as follows: 1) He has psionic powers 2) he likes to have sex 3) He is a man and therefore must be using his psionic powers to rape women. (I'm not saying "people" because the people who believe this do not consider that an ancient universe-travelling alien might not be conventionally cisgender heteronormative).

HE LIKES TO HAVE SEX. Uh-huh. That's Starfox.

Trying to think of more Eros/Dane/Cap smutty goodness to post, BTW.

[Viz]

It's from Solo Avengers #21. Yeah, it looks almost like Archie. I would say that him being lazy could be a convenient character fault, but I feel like Mentor would not let that happen - it would be Mentor's character fault too if there isn't some other explanation for the explanation, so to speak.





He can sense other emotions too - at least that's what I gathered from this dialogue in Celestial Quest, given the way he says it:

Sorry but where is that Thanos/Starfox battle from? Is it really Solo Avengers #21?

[CaTigeReptile]

Sorry but where is that Thanos/Starfox battle from? Is it really Solo Avengers #21?

Nope - that one is from Avengers: Celestial Quest #4. The Solo Avengers #21 panels are the ones that look like Archie Comics.

[Nomads1]

Really LOVE Starfox. Recently have been reareading Stern's run through the trades, and he was a great Avenger. We really need to se more of him. When I have the time, will re-read this wholçe thread.

Peace

[Hekabolos]

Edit: I think I've said like all of the below before earlier in the thread, just a warning

It's exactly as you said. Writers are uncomfortable using him because he is the male version of something only considered "safe" for female characters to be. Social convention tells us that what translates to noble or sexy for a woman (the telepathy/psionics/sensuality) is all of a sudden creepy or dangerous when it's a man - because women are viewed as inherently more 'pure' and 'innocent' than men, which comes from that whole idea of men being Strong and Aggressive and Always In Control - and don't forget Always Horny/Willing, while women are always weak and victimized and vulnerable (psionics especially, so prone to "the vapors" that they are). That is, he is a Threat because he is a Man, and Men are inherently corrupt or lack innocence (because innocence and purity are weaknesses). So it's assumed that a man would use these powers to control others, whereas a woman would somehow be controlled by the powers or rendered more vulnerable because of them. (Or, at best, just be inherently too pious to use them for evil - though Moondragon subverted this pretty well, even though everyone's totally forgotten/forgiven her).

I think it's also more than likely that the until recently nearly exclusively male writers were uncomfortable writing Eros not only because he is the opposite of what a male hero should be, but also because they had no concept of [I]how[I] a man could be written as such. The idea of the strong male/weak woman is so pervasive that there is a solid chance no one had given such a reversal any thought at all.

It's apt that you bring up Moondragon in relation to this. She's brash, strong and fights dirty. Carol Danvers (I'm going to avoid calling her Capt Marvel here, to avoid confusion with her predecessor), a character created roughly around the same time, is brash, strong and fights dirty. Carol was quickly taken in as a respected member of the Avengers, while Moondragon was near universally loathed. Why? Sure, Moondragon did some questionable things. More importantly, however, Carol was introduced as a staunch feminist who didn't want to be seen as "just a woman", but rather as a hero who happened to be a woman and could stand among the men. Even her costume, while showing off her legs, had that ridiculous scarf/turtleneck that helped to hide her body. Moondragon, meanwhile was blatant in her femininity. Her costume was little more than a bathing suit and her shaved head was frequently referenced as being exotically sexy. She was explicitly a woman even as she fought and acted in typically "male" ways. She was dangerous in her subversion and thus subject to revulsion and ridicule.

This all relates back to sexuality, too, which of course was one of the first conversations in this thread. Why did people think Eros was a creepy date-rapist? The logic was as follows: 1) He has psionic powers 2) he likes to have sex 3) He is a man and therefore must be using his psionic powers to rape women. (I'm not saying "people" because the people who believe this do not consider that an ancient universe-travelling alien might not be conventionally cisgender heteronormative).

This reminds me of the heavy fire Longshot, Marvel's only "innocent" male character, came under a few years ago for being a date rapist. Your three points are the exact reasoning used by those arguing that he had to be a rapist.

Granted, most of that was was whipped up by people who simply enjoy causing trouble, but Longshot was an easy target. He's a man with passive, psionic abilities who isn't typically "male". He's innocent, sweet and pure and is often fetishized as an object of desire. He doesn't conform to typical gender roles, in almost any way, and has struggled for more than thirty years to find a fanbase. Much like Moondragon, he came under fire for transgressing the gender line, without first renouncing his own.

Considering the histories of Longshot and Moondragon, it makes me curious what would have happened if Eros' gender non-conformity were more explored in the past. I suspect that, if it had happened in the 70s or 80s, he would have suffered the same fate they did for being a male who acted in the female realm. It might be best that any such exploration has been withheld until it can potentially be explored in a more aware environment. I know that he will be handled by Remender when he returns, but I can see a writer like Kieron Gillen doing wonders with Eros. Gillen handled an almost exclusively queer cast in Young Avengers quite well, including Wiccan who subverts a number of gender expectations, albeit with the safety net of homosexuality to make it ok for him to do so.

Whereas if they treat him like the rest of the psionic heroes, displaying that kind of "feminine" weakness is decidedly unheroic and thus unsavory, because male heroes are not allowed to be vulnerable or weak (or innocent or pure, for that matter). The fragility that's so celebrated in, say, Jean Grey would make male readers uncomfortable to read in a male (and would lead to instant ridicule and dislike for the character, or at least that's what I think most writers and/or editors assume). Heroines are very much allowed to and encouraged to be damsels in distress and are considered noble for their struggles which are "character development" (like Rape as a Plot Device; they're also fetishized for their vulnerability), whereas even considering writing a man going through struggles with any sort of hypersensitivity or vulnerability would be humiliating or demeaning or "unrealistic" or "forced."

I would see your Jean Grey and raise you the Scarlet Witch. Undoubtedly the Avengers' biggest female success story, Wanda is a perpetual victim who hides her body under a heavy cloak (until recently, when she switched to a coat/dress...thing). Jean, meanwhile, started out as a frequent damsel in distress who, when she became Phoenix, became ultra powerful and ultra sexual (and used her psionic based powers to dominate and overpower). She is now all but unusable. Frail Wanda, who continues to be a frequent victim surrounded by men who support her, is still going strong.

Edited to add: This makes it sound like I dislike Wanda, which couldn't be further from the truth. She's a favorite of mine. It's hard to deny that there are a fair amount of problems in her depiction, especially given the amount of male attention she receives, whether it's brotherly, platonic or amorous.

He needs a thread like Nightcrawler's in the X-Books forum. Lots of goodies there. And since it looks like he's a big part of Avengers World, now's the time to do one!

So who wants to start it?

YES. I would volunteer, but as demonstrated earlier in the thread when I couldn't post pictures, my interweb skills aren't up to the task of creating an entire thread.

[MollyBarton]

^I can post pictures...I could dig into my files...I'll try to start a thread today.