Has Spider-Man become Marvel's poor man version of Batman?

[Uncanny Mutie]

The folks at Marvel doesn't want Peter to grow up because he was their first teen aged superhero. Yet, the original X-Men were allowed to grow up.

If anything, since Brand New Day, Peter has been depicted as a, maybe, 22 to 27 year old (early to mid-20s). That seems to be his sweet spot, to keep him old enough to not eternally be a young school boy, but not old enough to be too mature and too dad-like as writers had become comofrtable writing him culimating with JMS writing him as a married school teacher who literally mentored and "DAD'ed" over his students.

So, I mean, what do people WANT from Pete age wise? Looks like to me that Marvel has found a nice middle ground for his age, yet people STILL complain about him being too young or not old enough?

[Kaitou D. Kid]

If anything, since Brand New Day, Peter has been depicted as a, maybe, 22 to 27 year old (early to mid-20s). That seems to be his sweet spot, to keep him old enough to not eternally be a young school boy, but not old enough to be too mature and too dad-like as writers had become comofrtable writing him culimating with JMS writing him as a married school teacher who literally mentored and "DAD'ed" over his students.

JMS' Spider-Man reminds me of my academic coach from college. He was a young guy in his late 20's who was married. Nothing about him looked or felt old. I'm not sure how people at Marvel got the impression that being in a mentor position = middle-aged dad. I mean, is the Peter from the Insomniac games all of a sudden "old" just because he is mentoring Miles?

So, I mean, what do people WANT from Pete age wise? Looks like to me that Marvel has found a nice middle ground for his age, yet people STILL complain about him being too young or not old enough?

The real question is what Quesada and Co. want for Peter age-wise. There was no fan demand to portray Spider-Man as "older" prior to the reset. Things kinda just got there naturally. The real burden of proof lies on Quesada and his team to state their terms.

[Uncanny Mutie]

JMS' Spider-Man reminds me of my academic coach from college. He was a young guy in his late 20's who was married. Nothing about him looked or felt old. I'm not sure how people at Marvel got the impression that being in a mentor position = middle-aged dad. I mean, is the Peter from the Insomniac games all of a sudden "old" just because he is mentoring Miles?

Honestly, to me personally, when it came to JMS' writing, I think he just wrote a Peter who just FELT like he was pushing 40. So the fact that he was a teacher mentoring young kids ON TOP OF THAT, just HELPED to make him feel older. Also, I personally never felt that being married alone made Peter feel old per say, but the way that JMS wrote him, I think it kind of made him feel older to be married since JMS already made him feel old to begin with. That's how it felt to ME (JMS honestly made Peter feel as old as I have ever seen him feel or be in main continuity). Others may agree or disagree.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Honestly, to me personally, when it came to JMS' writing, I think he just wrote a Peter who just FELT like he was pushing 40. So the fact that he was a teacher mentoring young kids ON TOP OF THAT, just HELPED to make him feel older. Also, I personally never felt that being married alone made Peter feel old per say, but the way that JMS wrote him, I think it kind of made him feel older to be married since JMS already made him feel old to begin with. That's how it felt to ME (JMS honestly made Peter feel as old as I have ever seem him feel or be in main continuity). Others may agree or disagree.

It's a fact that a person who goes through as many experiences as Peter from the age of 15 to his mid-20s would come off as being far older than others in his age. It's not too different from people who had to "grow up fast" and become independent and a breadwinner early in their lives. If you allegorize Spider-Man you can say that his experience is similar to traumatized victims of attacks or bereavement (he lost his uncle to gun violence, his first girlfriend was murdered by a terrorist), he's had several jobs. As an allegory, Spider-Man is somewhat of a first responder, he's the one who intervenes and is there on the scene first. Many of the frontline first responders during the COVID-19 crisis are mid-20s people you know. And over the last year they've been through stuff more than many people will go through during their full lifetimes. So if you were to meet them, they would come across as a little older than their years.

That's also true when you look at the original Lee-Ditko run you will find that Peter's on the whole clearly more mature than many people in his high school. Not completely mature since Lee-Ditko Peter does act impulsively in other moments but he's clearly dealing with stuff that makes him hard to relate to people of his own age.

Remember also that the majority of the Lee-Ditko era has Peter not in high school but as an employee at the Daily Bugle, he was dating the office secretary (Betty Brant who had to work early and skip school). From his inception, Spider-Man was always written in stories and situations far older than his stated age range. When Spider-Man was a teenager he wasn't written as a teenager. The kind of forced immaturity that you see in Bendis' USM and, irredemably so, in MCU Spider-Man, is worlds away from how Lee and Ditko saw the character.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Honestly, to me personally, when it came to JMS' writing, I think he just wrote a Peter who just FELT like he was pushing 40. So the fact that he was a teacher mentoring young kids ON TOP OF THAT, just HELPED to make him feel older. Also, I personally never felt that being married alone made Peter feel old per say, but the way that JMS wrote him, I think it kind of made him feel older to be married since JMS already made him feel old to begin with. That's how it felt to ME (JMS honestly made Peter feel as old as I have ever seen him feel or be in main continuity). Others may agree or disagree.

I can understand how some fans got that perception. I mean, JMS' Peter is arguably the closest that Spider-Man ever got to being portrayed like a DC character. What I mean is that he has a bit of that "perfect" quality to him that characters like Superman get crap for. And things like being extremely kind (the way Peter is to his students) and being very mature are typically associated with older people and not someone in their 20's.

And while Jack is right that 616 Peter was always mature for his age, a high school kid still isn't exactly mature when we look at the bigger picture. It's like picking out the tallest kid in kindergarten. So a Peter in his late 20's does kinda have the maturity of a 40 year old in the same way that a high school Peter had the maturity of an early 20s dude.

At the same time, What I love about JMS' Spider-Man (and I don't think he gets enough credit for this, even from JMS fans) is how childlike and goofbally his Peter is. This was a guy who loved to have fun as Spider-Man as much as he did in high school. He managed to reach adulthood without losing the positive qualities that we associate with childhood. And part of why he was able to connect with his students so well is because he of how much of a kid he still is (in a good way). He approached a lot of his students like an older brother and even knew how to throw witty comebacks at them whenever they fired one at him. He was more-or-less the kind of teacher I always wanted to have in high school.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I can understand how some fans got that perception. I mean, JMS' Peter is arguably the closest that Spider-Man ever got to being portrayed like a DC character. What I mean is that he has a bit of that "perfect" quality to him that characters like Superman get crap for. And things like being extremely kind (the way Peter is to his students) and being very mature are typically associated with older people and not someone in their 20's.

And while Jack is right that 616 Peter was always mature for his age, a high school kid still isn't exactly mature when we look at the bigger picture. It's like picking out the tallest kid in kindergarten. So a Peter that is past his late teens/early 20s does stand out more as indisputably a good person than a younger Spider-Man does.

Even in the Lee-Ditko era, Peter had a lot of moments of niceness. The jerkishness sticks out when we reread it with modern eyes. And even then in the Lee-Ditko era, practically everyone was a jerk, across age lines.

[PCN24454]

Honestly, to me personally, when it came to JMS' writing, I think he just wrote a Peter who just FELT like he was pushing 40. So the fact that he was a teacher mentoring young kids ON TOP OF THAT, just HELPED to make him feel older. Also, I personally never felt that being married alone made Peter feel old per say, but the way that JMS wrote him, I think it kind of made him feel older to be married since JMS already made him feel old to begin with. That's how it felt to ME (JMS honestly made Peter feel as old as I have ever seen him feel or be in main continuity). Others may agree or disagree.

Well, he should have been in his forties by then, so it's hard to argue that's a bad thing.

[Noronha]

Honestly, to me personally, when it came to JMS' writing, I think he just wrote a Peter who just FELT like he was pushing 40. So the fact that he was a teacher mentoring young kids ON TOP OF THAT, just HELPED to make him feel older. Also, I personally never felt that being married alone made Peter feel old per say, but the way that JMS wrote him, I think it kind of made him feel older to be married since JMS already made him feel old to begin with. That's how it felt to ME (JMS honestly made Peter feel as old as I have ever seen him feel or be in main continuity). Others may agree or disagree.

I can see why you would get that vibe.

But to me JMS´s Peter represents the development and growth of the teenage boy that was bitten by the spider.

I see it as a 30 year old guy with life experiences, triumphs and losses that would give him a maturity well beyond his years, his Peter is the culmination of years of stories and that's how I read him.

To me JMS and Stern are the best SM writers of all time and if you take a look and Stern´s Peter, he acts, thinks and speaks like someone way older than a guy his yearly 20s, he´s experienced, assertive, hot-headed and (this is a strong point that Stern really wanted to drive home) powerful.

Despite being single, there´re a lot of similarities in the way he was portrayed by both writers and imo it´s the blueprint of the perfect PP/SM

[Revolutionary_Jack]

To me JMS and Stern are the best SM writers of all time and if you take a look and Stern´s Peter, he acts, thinks and speaks like someone way older than a guy his yearly 20s, he´s experienced, assertive, hot-headed and (this is a strong point that Stern really wanted to drive home) powerful.

A story like "The Kid Who Collects Spider-Man" would never have worked if Peter was a teenager. The level of maturity and compassion Peter shows in that story, where he's putting someone else entirely before himself and doing all he can to give joy to this child in pain, simply can't be done with someone who was immature.

[PCN24454]

A story like "The Kid Who Collects Spider-Man" would never have worked if Peter was a teenager. The level of maturity and compassion Peter shows in that story, where he's putting someone else entirely before himself and doing all he can to give joy to this child in pain, simply can't be done with someone who was immature.

I think you're over-exaggerating right now. Peter doesn't need to be an adult for that plot to work.

[Noronha]

I think you're over-exaggerating right now. Peter doesn't need to be an adult for that plot to work.

I agree, but the way he´s been portrayed the past 12 years it would lack any sort of credibility, plus you need a writer of Stern´s calibre to achieve what the story achieved.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

At the same time, What I love about JMS' Spider-Man (and I don't think he gets enough credit for this, even from JMS fans) is how childlike and goofbally his Peter is. This was a guy who loved to have fun as Spider-Man as much as he did in high school. He managed to reach adulthood without losing the positive qualities that we associate with childhood. And part of why he was able to connect with his students so well is because he of how much of a kid he still is (in a good way). He approached a lot of his students like an older brother and even knew how to throw witty comebacks at them whenever they fired one at him. He was more-or-less the kind of teacher I always wanted to have in high school.

Missed this addition but gotta say, you are totally right about this. I re-read JMS' run in full last year and what struck me on re-reading it is that it was much funnier than I remember it being. There are all these amazing one-panel gags or cameos with background characters that are hilarious and add so much. And Peter absolutely comes across as the way you describe him there.

I think the seriousness of JMS sticks out because it's jarring compared to how he's been written since so that tends to stick out among other stuff. But yeah it's definitely underrated for its humor.

[Uncanny Mutie]

Well, he should have been in his forties by then, so it's hard to argue that's a bad thing.

I mean, by that logic, ALL the old school Marvel heroes should be 40+, but they're not; we all know comic book superheros aren't allowed to age that far, so why should (only) Spider-Man? That would be kinda like over at DC when they decided to make Hal Jordan and older hero was greying at the temples and starting to feel and act like an aging and jaded superhero who had decades with of mileage and experience under his belt...yet Flash, Batman, Superman, and most of his other contemparies (with the notable exception of Green Arrow) DIDN'T age and all stayed young and frozen in a certain age group. Would we REALLY want that for Spider-Man, the hero who owed a great deal of his initial popularity and succes to the fact that he WAS on the younger side compared to most other superheroes...?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Would we REALLY want that for Spider-Man, the hero who owed a great deal of his initial popularity and succes to the fact that he WAS on the younger side compared to most other superheroes...?

The popularity and success of Spider-Man is tied to his powers, his abilities and his rogues gallery, the art and humor while the age was incidental.

It's a fact that the sales of Spider-Man increased considerably after he graduated high school and went to college. The vast majority of his adventures in comics don't feature him as a student at all. I mean the title is Spider-Man and not Spider-Boy or Spider-Teen. Stan Lee after he finished his run on Spider-Man had many chances to write Spider-Man in the newspaper strip and special one-off short strips here and there, not once did he ever write a young version of Spider-Man.

The newspaper strip which for the longest time had a bigger active readership than the monthly ongoing and which actually served as the first introduction to Spider-Man until the Raimi film had him as a married man as well.

All told, the concept of Spider-Man as a teenager is a pretty recent trend (2000s) and wasn't an inherent part of the franchise in the classical original period.

[PCN24454]

I agree, but the way he´s been portrayed the past 12 years it would lack any sort of credibility, plus you need a writer of Stern´s calibre to achieve what the story achieved.

Not really. Oftentimes, the writers' ability is overstated. Stern's writing doesn't feel so essential to making it work.