What's Going On in the Final Page of "Superman: Doomed"?

[Lee Stone]

i know.. it's great to see jericho again. the red trunks though.... the kryptonian ceremonial suit was just warming up on me.

If they can understand the fact that the Dark Knight, Beware the Batman and Gotham are about the same character but take place in separate universes, then they will easily grasp the same concept for comic continuities.

Therefore, DC should reboot again next year.
Because we as readers should be okay with it.

[Prime]

Interesting, but I'll strick with New 52 Superman. Don't want the underwear back.

[mr_crisp]

though its finale feels more like a prelude to something even bigger.

Don't all finales feel like this nowadays.

[mister_medusa]

And this is exactly where the problem lies. The older demographic, use to it history considers changing history as "forcing diversity", not realizing that almost every aspect of human rights manage has been created by literally force. From slavery to the civil rights movement to today, things don't just happen naturally. This is further illustrated by how the comic book demographic was pre 52, according to the comic book panel of diversity in San Diego Comic Con, were 85% white males over the age of 27. That's extremely one sided. Why? Because diversity wasn't pushed, it made small sprinkles here and there but no radical changes that you see currently in the the new 52.

One of the biggest cricitism of the JLA was that the most important heroes were all white with one green alien, this was actually one of the reasons why John Stewart was chosen for the JL unlimited cartoon. due to the fact that it's heavily one sided.

And that goes back to my original discussion. Pre 52 was built around a time which tailored towards white male. These "iconic" characters teams and stories were tailored towards white men of the 1940's. But this isn't the 1940's. Last year was the first year in the school system where minority kids outnumbered white kids, DC is finally realizing that what would fly 40+ years ago can't fly today.

So updating the origins to be contemporary isn't enough, the character's gender, sexual orientation and race need to change to be with the times? Mickey Mouse needs to become Mickey Manatee to be progressive and Sherlock Holmes should become an East Indian female to be diverse? If that's the case then why wasn't any of the DC heavy hitters updated in such a way? Batman/Bruce Wayne is an African-American male would be an incredible change to the core of the character and I cannot imagine the venom and hate it would create online on the message boards. People are beside themselves because Superman's shorts changed colour - what would happen if his skin changed colour? Comic fan outrage and ridiculous claims to never read the book again. Yes, the character are a product of their time. Does this mean such drastic changes and "forced diversity" is needed to make the characters relevant and mirror the changes in society? I do not think so.

There is nothing wrong with the characters that a little updating cannot fix once in a while. Does it matter if The Punisher/Frank Castle fought in the Viet Nam war or a more recent conflict in the Middle East? No. If Marvel rebooted The Punisher to be a former Japanese Samurai warrior whose family is slain by the Yakuza, is he the same character? I do not think so. That type of scenario is what alt-universe what if? stories are for. The characters are not the problem I have with modern stories - I blame corporate direction and professional "fanboy" writers. Want The Punisher or Batman to be modern and diverse - surround them with a cast that reflects today's general population and society and write stories about them that reflect or mirror contemporary issues and problems. Modern readers should not have to care about when The Punisher turned black or Batman met an imp from another dimension. Tell me a new story today that makes me want to pick up the next issue and talk about it online with the creators. Why does Alan Scott need to be gay or Wally West need to be half African-American to tell these stories?

Yes, I am a white male and have been reading comic books for over 30 years. The illusion of change is what has kept me reading for so long. I realize that the majority of the characters are white males created long before I was born. Does that mean I hate or dislike modern or brand new characters? Not at all. I love Spider-Man 2099/Miguel O'Hara and Spider-Man/Miles Morales. Great character design, origins and mythology. Not what ifs, not completely original but a different enough take with just enough connection to another character but more focus on what makes them different and relevant. The X-Men family has certainly managed to stay current with regard to diversity. I may not like the new characters for whatever reason I have but that doesn't mean I want them changed. I don't have to read about them now and maybe I will when a writer finds a voice for the character I want to read about. But that can also be said about other older (white and male) characters I previously never cared to read. Captain America was a book I never read month to month until Ed Brubaker's 2005 series. I never read Thor consistently until Jason Aaron's 2012 Thor: God of Thunder series. I also read and enjoyed (at the time) Spawn/Al Simmons in the 90's. He was a black character and it didn't occur to me at any point: hey, Spawn should be white!

For me, it comes down to the writer. When they are able to jump through the corporate hoops and avoid upsetting their merchandising licencees and still wow me month after month, I will be back to see what happens next. Change for change sake (and the temporary bump in sales) tells me it is time to move on with my reading choices. DC's New 52 relaunch showed me that I am no longer the audience they are writing for and while that hurts and is disappointing I can live with their decision. It leaves more money on the table for other titles and even other things for me to do.

The kids are talking about something called 'outside' and I am curious to find out what it is

[TheNewFiftyForum]

Not a good comeback but better off next time. You should spend more time on the Superman board and learn how it is done from the pros.

Awesome counter argument!

[RobinFan4880]

When you force things out of sight it becomes out of mind and hense out of existence. DC is forcing people to forget the Old Universe by forcing the New 52 on everyone. But DC never accounted for older fans and those who love the older looks and feels of the character to not let that happen.

People still talk about the Silver and Golden Ages. The Universe you prefer is just a reboot of an older universe. If the internet was around in the 80's, then people would be complaining all to heck about how the Kents being alive ruins Superman and all the other things that were changed due to Crisis.

The existence of older fans who like the old product and not the new product is not a new concept. This happens in pretty much every hobby. The internet acts as an echo chamber, allowing those discontented few to feel as if they are in the majority, when in fact they are not. There are definitely aspects that people would change about the New 52 but on the whole only a minority of people want to go back to the post-crisis universe.

[Waterfall]

So updating the origins to be contemporary isn't enough, the character's gender, sexual orientation and race need to change to be with the times? Mickey Mouse needs to become Mickey Manatee to be progressive and Sherlock Holmes should become an East Indian female to be diverse? If that's the case then why wasn't any of the DC heavy hitters updated in such a way? Batman/Bruce Wayne is an African-American male would be an incredible change to the core of the character and I cannot imagine the venom and hate it would create online on the message boards. People are beside themselves because Superman's shorts changed colour - what would happen if his skin changed colour? Comic fan outrage and ridiculous claims to never read the book again. Yes, the character are a product of their time. Does this mean such drastic changes and "forced diversity" is needed to make the characters relevant and mirror the changes in society? I do not think so.

There is nothing wrong with the characters that a little updating cannot fix once in a while. Does it matter if The Punisher/Frank Castle fought in the Viet Nam war or a more recent conflict in the Middle East? No. If Marvel rebooted The Punisher to be a former Japanese Samurai warrior whose family is slain by the Yakuza, is he the same character? I do not think so. That type of scenario is what alt-universe what if? stories are for. The characters are not the problem I have with modern stories - I blame corporate direction and professional "fanboy" writers. Want The Punisher or Batman to be modern and diverse - surround them with a cast that reflects today's general population and society and write stories about them that reflect or mirror contemporary issues and problems. Modern readers should not have to care about when The Punisher turned black or Batman met an imp from another dimension. Tell me a new story today that makes me want to pick up the next issue and talk about it online with the creators. Why does Alan Scott need to be gay or Wally West need to be half African-American to tell these stories?

Yes, I am a white male and have been reading comic books for over 30 years. The illusion of change is what has kept me reading for so long. I realize that the majority of the characters are white males created long before I was born. Does that mean I hate or dislike modern or brand new characters? Not at all. I love Spider-Man 2099/Miguel O'Hara and Spider-Man/Miles Morales. Great character design, origins and mythology. Not what ifs, not completely original but a different enough take with just enough connection to another character but more focus on what makes them different and relevant. The X-Men family has certainly managed to stay current with regard to diversity. I may not like the new characters for whatever reason I have but that doesn't mean I want them changed. I don't have to read about them now and maybe I will when a writer finds a voice for the character I want to read about. But that can also be said about other older (white and male) characters I previously never cared to read. Captain America was a book I never read month to month until Ed Brubaker's 2005 series. I never read Thor consistently until Jason Aaron's 2012 Thor: God of Thunder series. I also read and enjoyed (at the time) Spawn/Al Simmons in the 90's. He was a black character and it didn't occur to me at any point: hey, Spawn should be white!

For me, it comes down to the writer. When they are able to jump through the corporate hoops and avoid upsetting their merchandising licencees and still wow me month after month, I will be back to see what happens next. Change for change sake (and the temporary bump in sales) tells me it is time to move on with my reading choices. DC's New 52 relaunch showed me that I am no longer the audience they are writing for and while that hurts and is disappointing I can live with their decision. It leaves more money on the table for other titles and even other things for me to do.

The kids are talking about something called 'outside' and I am curious to find out what it is

*applauds*

I'd love DC to racebend Barry Allen, The Fastest Man Alive instead of that second fiddle nobody cares about.

Last time I checked The Fastest Man Alive in the real world wasn't an Aryan approved by Nazi Party.

[Lexrules]

People still talk about the Silver and Golden Ages. The Universe you prefer is just a reboot of an older universe. If the internet was around in the 80's, then people would be complaining all to heck about how the Kents being alive ruins Superman and all the other things that were changed due to Crisis.

The existence of older fans who like the old product and not the new product is not a new concept. This happens in pretty much every hobby. The internet acts as an echo chamber, allowing those discontented few to feel as if they are in the majority, when in fact they are not. There are definitely aspects that people would change about the New 52 but on the whole only a minority of people want to go back to the post-crisis universe.

I don't think it should go back but I do think there is room for all versions to be seen. There should be 4 Superman books out a month. 1. Golden Age, 2 Silver Age, 3. Byrne Superman, 4. New 52. Same should be done with all the books. Kill the books that make very little money and focus on the big guns in certain areas. Do Crossovers in those areas for continuum sack and once every blue moon cross over with each other for a major event.

Everyone wins and books sell like hotcakes. Problem solved.

[byrd156]

Meh, this is going to end up as calling closing curtains on pre-Flashpoint universe.

Honestly, it would have been better if they just opened a Ultimate type line for the fans of them. Everyone wins.

That's what I have been saying, but a lot of people say its a bad idea. I don't get how it is.

[Flash Gordon]

We're not reverting back- it's just an event that'll have a few winks and nods. It would be ridiculous to drop the past few years of stories. I know I'd quit in a heartbeat.

Besides Pre-Flashpoint Superman against the Multitude? He would have cried and walked America. He was always crying on covers during that period.

[Sirzechs]

I don't think it should go back but I do think there is room for all versions to be seen. There should be 4 Superman books out a month. 1. Golden Age, 2 Silver Age, 3. Byrne Superman, 4. New 52. Same should be done with all the books. Kill the books that make very little money and focus on the big guns in certain areas. Do Crossovers in those areas for continuum sack and once every blue moon cross over with each other for a major event.

Everyone wins and books sell like hotcakes. Problem solved.

So confuse the crap out of people? for what end, things change let changes evolve.

[Lexrules]

Here you go. It leaves room for specialty character set in different timelines as well Like Swamp Thing, Blue Bettle, or what not. There are 4 Wednesday's in each month so it works.

JSA
Golden
Silver
Bryne
New 52

JLA
Golden (See Byrne)
Silver
Bryne (Both Golden and Modern in one)
New 52

Teen Titans
Golden (Infinity, Inc)
Silver
Bryne
New 52

Superman
Golden
Silver
Bryne
New 52

Batman
Golden
Silver
Bryne
New 52

Wonder Woman
Golden
Silver
Bryne
New 52

Flash
Golden
Silver
Bryne
New 52

Green Lantern
Golden
Silver
Bryne
New 52


Everyone gets everything and you sell books. Writing teams work on certain era's stay on those Era's books only to get to know the stories of all characters.

[Lexrules]

So confuse the crap out of people? for what end, things change let changes evolve.

No it won't. People are confused now because it's one big Cluster$%&* with what is in continuum and what isn't. They f'ed it up with COIE, made it worse with Infinite Crisis and really blew it out of the water with New 52. This keeps everything self contained and relevant.

[Waterfall]

That's what I have been saying, but a lot of people say its a bad idea. I don't get how it is.

edit: Well, people are afraid they would sell better then current series.

[GlennSimpson]

I don't think it should go back but I do think there is room for all versions to be seen. There should be 4 Superman books out a month. 1. Golden Age, 2 Silver Age, 3. Byrne Superman, 4. New 52. Same should be done with all the books. Kill the books that make very little money and focus on the big guns in certain areas. Do Crossovers in those areas for continuum sack and once every blue moon cross over with each other for a major event.

Everyone wins and books sell like hotcakes. Problem solved.

If that sort of thing worked, DC probably wouldn't have cancelled the Adventures of Superman digital-first book. People would have been falling all over themselves to get the non-new52 version of the character. Obviously they didn't.

In your scenario, what you'd end up with is one book that sold really well and three that didn't sell worth a crap. A company can't afford to make everybody happy.