Spider-Man: Gwen Stacy's Brush With White Supremacy

[Inversed]

I would feel like the topic would be a more interesting discussion...if it wasn't for the fact that the only ever time this was ever brought up in the past was as a way to discredit fans of Peter x Gwen, and by just the same guy too. And when they also have a history of being defensive over critiques of their own ship, it ends up muddying the waters of everything.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I would feel like the topic would be a more interesting discussion...if it wasn't for the fact that the only ever time this was ever brought up in the past was as a way to discredit fans of Peter x Gwen, and by just the same guy too. And when they also have a history of being defensive over critiques of their own ship, it ends up muddying the waters of everything.

Well Brian Cronin published it without knowing anything so I don’t see why it cannot be discussed cold. After all MJ isn’t mentioned in the article.

[NC_Yankee]

There's a difference between characters who are bad guys, presented as bad guys to us by the writer/artist, seen and called bad guys by characters who are heroes, supporting characters and extras. There's a difference between that and characters who are supposed to be good. When a bad guy acts and does something bad, it fits. When a character who is good does stuff that's out of step with what they are supposed to be and which is never acknowledged and treated as such...then that creates an issue.

I would accept that except for the fact that most characters and for that matter human beings are not all black or white. Look at Dr. Doom or Otto. They are bad guys who from time to time do good.. Another example is Amazing Fantasy 15 and why Uncle Ben died: Peter messed up royally. Gwen never messed up to that degree but she gets hammered over Sam Bullett and 'Sins Past'. Guess what? She is dead and is not coming back no need to bring up those two stories.

[Scott Taylor]

I am.as hard core MJ as they come, but I do not consider Gwen evil or for that matter a Saint ( the same applies to MJ, Felicia or any other "Parker Woman"). What is crazy about this discussion is there are some pretty disgusting characters in Marvel without a single redeeming factor ( Red Skull, Carnage, Abonomation and Mephisto to name a few) and we are poking holes in a character in 616 Gwen Stacy who died over 40 years ago.

Well if it makes you feel any better, MJ was disposable at the time, too. She just was less prominent in the books than Gwen, so at the time it would not have had the impact to kill her as it did to kill Gwen. Gwen was Peter's girlfriend and her dad was one of Peter's closest adult friends for a good while. I get frustrated when I read stories like Blue where Gwen kind of comes off as this perfect, ideal girl for Peter. She was far from it!

[Michael Watkins]

someone remind me. what side was Gwen on during Secret Empire?

[Huntsman Spider]

someone remind me. what side was Gwen on during Secret Empire?

That would've been interesting, but Gwen was long dead by the time Secret Empire came around. I do wonder what Norman Osborn's perspective and reaction would have been, though.

[NC_Yankee]

Well if it makes you feel any better, MJ was disposable at the time, too. She just was less prominent in the books than Gwen, so at the time it would not have had the impact to kill her as it did to kill Gwen. Gwen was Peter's girlfriend and her dad was one of Peter's closest adult friends for a good while. I get frustrated when I read stories like Blue where Gwen kind of comes off as this perfect, ideal girl for Peter. She was far from it!

I agree with you that MJ was disposable when ASM 121 came out. But here is reality:"Gwen was never going to be Mrs. Peter Parker..Why? 1: Her hatred of Spider-Man going back to ASM 91. 2; If you believe ( as I do) that stories are usually planned years in advance, then you can assume that after her father died it was the beginning of the end for Gwen. Not only do you have the Bullett storyline but her terrible treatment of Aunt May. Both in my humble opinionn were designed to make her LESS sympathetic to the readers of ASM. I will throw in the fact that Conway made sure that the healing process for Pete only took one issue( ASM 122) and it was MJ not Betty, Aunt May or anyone else. 3: Speaking of Aunt May, MJ is the woman she wanted Pete to end up with and she played and still plays a big role in his life.

[Spider-Chan]

That would've been interesting, but Gwen was long dead by the time Secret Empire came around. I do wonder what Norman Osborn's perspective and reaction would have been, though.

I totally believe that she would be on Osborn's side during Dark Reign, had she never died and Sins Past never happened.

[Huntsman Spider]

I totally believe that she would be on Osborn's side during Dark Reign, had she never died and Sins Past never happened.

Yeah? How so?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Yeah? How so?

Gwen Stacy was consistently anti-vigilante throughout that run. She always hated Spider-Man. All things being equal, during Civil War, she would be pro-Registration. And the Pro-Reg side ultimately became absorbed and co-opted by Osborn.

But at the same time, it's hard to imagine Osborn becoming the character he became in Dark Reign without him killing Gwen. So it's moot.

[Huntsman Spider]

Gwen Stacy was consistently anti-vigilante throughout that run. She always hated Spider-Man. All things being equal, during Civil War, she would be pro-Registration. And the Pro-Reg side ultimately became absorbed and co-opted by Osborn.

But at the same time, it's hard to imagine Osborn becoming the character he became in Dark Reign without him killing Gwen. So it's moot.

And finding out Peter was Spider-Man when he publicly revealed himself at Tony Stark's urging . . . would Gwen have the same reaction as Liz Allan and Debra Whitman, blaming him for ruining her life to the point of more-or-less willingly taking part in a supervillain revenge plot? (Granted, that was more Liz than Debra, who just settled for writing a tell-all book, but still.)

[Revolutionary_Jack]

And finding out Peter was Spider-Man when he publicly revealed himself at Tony Stark's urging . . . would Gwen have the same reaction as Liz Allan and Debra Whitman, blaming him for ruining her life to the point of more-or-less willingly taking part in a supervillain revenge plot? (Granted, that was more Liz than Debra, who just settled for writing a tell-all book, but still.)

Gwen would sue Peter and try and charge him with murder of George Stacy and fraud and other stuff. That's what she would do. Expect her to lash out about Peter being a Norman Bates type who dotes on a smothering Aunt. I don't expect her to say kind stuff about MJ either.

Gwen would also charge Peter with emotional abuse and gaslighting...which you know is true to some extent. If you read Peter/Gwen's relationship from the outside looking in, i.e. forget that Peter's a superhero and so on, his duplicity to her is rather creepy especially since it induces obvious emotional stress in her, like ASM #87. Likewise, Gwen Stacy has an obvious oedipus complex in that she's dating a guy who is very much like her father and is trying to mould him even more into him, though ultimately I don't think she entirely understood her Dad.

[Inversed]

I mean, if Gwen Stacy was still alive by the time of Civil War, etc., its almost a CERTAINTY Peter would've told her, so wouldn't really make sense for her to act out in that way as just another random outsider.

And as stuff like the Ultimate Universe, Life Story, and Clone Conspiracy have shown, she does goes through a growth and change when given time to digest the revelation. Don't ever seeing her going full antagonistic.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I mean, if Gwen Stacy was still alive by the time of Civil War, etc., its almost a CERTAINTY Peter would've told her, so wouldn't really make sense for her to act out in that way as just another random outsider.

Gerry Conway is on record for saying that if there had been no plan in the offices to kill a major character (for which Conway nominated Gwen), he would have found some way to break Peter and Gwen up, and have him date Mary Jane anyway. Gwen would be moved out of the books, maybe sent to London. At best this would mean later writers could come and bring Gwen back and have there be some tension, but it would also mean that her hating Spider-Man would have been solidified as a character trait. Because lacking a death, people will remember the character as she was when she was alive.

It's only because Gwen died, and that people see her as the lost love and what-could-have-been that writers imply that Gwen was a saint and she would have accepted and approved Peter's life choices and so on. And largely that was driven with an agenda to undermine Peter's later relationships rather than be true to the character.

So there's no guarantee that their relationship would develop to that point if she had lived. Not with the writing team on hand anyway.

And as stuff like the Ultimate Universe, Life Story, and Clone Conspiracy have shown, she does goes through a growth and change when given time to digest the revelation. Don't ever seeing her going full antagonistic.

Ultimate Gwen is almost entirely a different character. Life Story is Emma Gwen, and it's not entirely clear if the Gwen who learns Peter's identity and accepts him is a clone or the real thing. Clone Conspiracy is Slott fanfiction and obviously another Clone added to the bunch. Gwen wasn't conscious at all on the night she died. It's pretty obvious from the pages.

It's possible for 616 Gwen to change and evolve...but that goes both ways. She can get worse just as likely as she can get better.

Ditko wrote Gwen with a mean streak and an air of snobbery to her, and those traits despite Lee's efforts never went away. I personally think that 616 Gwen had the makings of a fine villain. Had she not died, she could have been Peter's love interest turned bad and his great female supervillain.

[Inversed]

Gerry Conway is on record for saying that if there had been no plan in the offices to kill a major character (for which Conway nominated Gwen), he would have found some way to break Peter and Gwen up, and have him date Mary Jane anyway. Gwen would be moved out of the books, maybe sent to London. At best this would mean later writers could come and bring Gwen back and have there be some tension, but it would also mean that her hating Spider-Man would have been solidified as a character trait. Because lacking a death, people will remember the character as she was when she was alive.

It's only because Gwen died, and that people see her as the lost love and what-could-have-been that writers imply that Gwen was a saint and she would have accepted and approved Peter's life choices and so on. And largely that was driven with an agenda to undermine Peter's later relationships rather than be true to the character.

So there's no guarantee that their relationship would develop to that point if she had lived. Not with the writing team on hand anyway.

That's the sticking point right there. Nothing is set in stone, and new creative teams can throw the story in whichever direction they most desire. So definitively saying that Gwen would always hate Spider-Man and nothing else could really grow with her, just seems more like bias than anything else.

Ultimate Gwen is almost entirely a different character. Life Story is Emma Gwen, and it's not entirely clear if the Gwen who learns Peter's identity and accepts him is a clone or the real thing. Clone Conspiracy is Slott fanfiction and obviously another Clone added to the bunch. Gwen wasn't conscious at all on the night she died. It's pretty obvious from the pages.

It's possible for 616 Gwen to change and evolve...but that goes both ways. She can get worse just as likely as she can get better.

Ditko wrote Gwen with a mean streak and an air of snobbery to her, and those traits despite Lee's efforts never went away. I personally think that 616 Gwen had the makings of a fine villain. Had she not died, she could have been Peter's love interest turned bad and his great female supervillain.

Pretty sure Life Story implies that Peter at least married the real Gwen, since the switch appeared to be fairly recent. Also we know for a fact the one who discovered the identity is the real thing, clone wasn't that old. Also it's pretty obvious MJ wasn't supposed to have always known Peter's identity, but yet we still buy and accept that retcon, so giving one to Gwen doesn't really derail everything.

(also I do think the irony is funny that Jonah shouldn't be considered a villain yet Gwen should've been)