Singer-Actress Zendaya cast in MCU Spider-Man film

[Kevinroc]

The Bugle has a lot of potential. But not while Peter's in High School. Simmons was straight out of the comics, but sadly the Bugle was just a way to make Jameson jokes and send Peter to different places in the movies.

Peter using the Bugle for an internship (probably unpaid due to Jameson) would make a lot of sense, but Peter would have to be in college. I don't think even taking college credits while in high scool would get that oppurtunity.

As I said, I'm not interested in discussing details on how to bring The Bugle into the new film series. I would love to see them. But that's about it.

It's a silly answer. Ned was a big part of the same era, affected a lot, and so forth. Also, he's way bigger than the Owl or Stiltsman. Heck, he's bigger than ROM and we're getting a ROM tie in to the MCU. Why would Marvel studios stop giving us continuity to minor characters now?

Because it doesn't look like we're getting the Bugle, at least not right away. Using the same name as another character from that era is an homage to the original works. I don't see why this is a discussion at all. At this point in time, Spidey fans at large don't care about Ned.

I'm pretty sure that's a club or gifted section of the school. My high school had similar shirts for its sports. Looking at them, you'd think it was nothing but football and track and field. In truth, the couldn't even aford enough shirts for the track and field kids.

Guess we'll just have to wait until the movie comes out.

[Moral_Gutpunch]

Because it doesn't look like we're getting the Bugle, at least not right away. Using the same name as another character from that era is an homage to the original works. I don't see why this is a discussion at all. At this point in time, Spidey fans at large don't care about Ned.

Because I'm not the only peron who cares or knows about Ned, he's from the same era you keep emphasizing and was around for a long time in it, and you always ignore that Marvel studios doesn't just drop names as homages when you've been given tons of examples. If you don't care, don't reply. Repeating yourself like that makes it seem you want to retcon the movies or comics instead of listen (or read).

You kinda need to choose which message you want to say that you don't care and have nothing to say about them, or that you don't want any of that to exist?

[Kevinroc]

Because I'm not the only peron who cares or knows about Ned, he's from the same era you keep emphasizing and was around for a long time in it, and you always ignore that Marvel studios doesn't just drop names as homages when you've been given tons of examples. If you don't care, don't reply. Repeating yourself like that makes it seem you want to retcon the movies or comics instead of listen (or read).

You kinda need to choose which message you want to say that you don't care and have nothing to say about them, or that you don't want any of that to exist?

I'm just not interested in discussing fan theories on how the Bugle and its characters could work in the MCU.

Also, Marvel changes details about their characters for the films all the time. They outright said Carol Danvers would have a different origin in the Captain Marvel movie (never mind the idea that she's probably going to skip straight to being Captain Marvel. No Ms. Marvel or Binary.)

I just can't get worked up over re-imagining Ned as Peter's High School friend. But I'm trying to get why it bothers you so much. If it's just one of those things, we can end this discussion here on civil terms.

[Moral_Gutpunch]

I just can't get worked up over re-imagining Ned as Peter's High School friend. But I'm trying to get why it bothers you so much. If it's just one of those things, we can end this discussion here on civil terms.

I've never been mad, I've been confused at your redirection and having problems with examples pointed out.

Adaptation is never the same as completely reworking a character. You've been arguing the latter, not the former.

Casting MJ as a different race, that's adaptation. It doesn't change the core of the character. Changing the environment, several plots, and personality of Ned Leeds reworking him. Marvel hasn't done that, even with minor characters. At worst, some costumes were changed drastically to be more modern, but many of the more iconic outfits have remained because changing them too drastically would be too noticable even on minor characters (Stiltsman, Arnim Zola, Crossbones).

[boots]

Yeah, but it fits definition 2; discrimination.

but in context, definition 2 is essentially the academic interpretation: that systemic power propagates and enforces racism. this definition is why islamaphobia is technically racism. we can’t just cherry pick a word without the rest of the sentence.

“discrimination” itself is not racism. it can be classist or sexist or based on how hot someone is.

1) A system is made of individuals. The laws on the books don't allow that behavior. It's up to the individuals to ensure that's actually what happens. Making a law to enforce discrimination is a poor way to stop it.

well, that gets into the debate of whether individuals are in control of the system or the other way around. and trusting individuals to fight against their own (often subconscious bias) is a huge risk and has not paid off.

2) Thinking of it in terms of "white actress" and the "black acting community" is somewhat disturbing to me. It fails to treat individuals as individuals and defines people based on their skin color with no other distinction.

you can still be an individual and part of a community (as you point out yourself). are we going to say that hollywood does not have a bias against asian actors as a group and simply has a personal bias against each individual actor who happens to be of asian descent?

3) No, I don't assume an equal playing field. People start in all kinds of different places (regardless of race, even). But if you only think about the short term you'll never solve the long term problems. If you want to stop treating people differently, you need to stop treating people differently..

group x is different from group y. each group has their own personal experiences and challenges and privileges. colour blindness is a form of racism in itself. BET exists to reward creative members of black backgrounds, not to exclude white creatives (who are already disproportionately rewarded through the mainstream system).

if we agree the field is unequal how can we not treat each case on its individual needs? but really… if that really neat little image from my last post didn’t explain the point, i won’t be able to either.
the proof of the pudding is in the results not the rhetoric. if the roadblocks for all have truly been removed, why is there still an imbalance?

and to bring it back to topic- for me, mary jane is fiction. fiction is infinitely open to reinterpretation. i’m happy for one iteration out of dozens (if not hundreds) to present a different physical interpretation. worked for nick fury.

[Xenon]

You argued that Luke Cage should be black because he was black in the comics, and then asked how people would feel if Cage were of Middle Eastern descent. Yes, you did try to pit minority communities against each other. Don't pretend you were doing otherwise.

I'm going to just assume you're missing the point, so I'll try again. The question of "would you be mad if Luke Cage is Middle Eastern" removes the minority vs. majority angle to the question.

Did it bother you when Marvel used Sam Jackson as a template for Ultimate Nick Fury? When Sam Jackson was actually cast as Nick Fury for the films? When Idris Elba was cast as Heimdall? When Will Smith was cast as Deadshot in Suicide Squad? When Candice Patton was cast as Iris West in The Flash (2014) TV show? When Mehcad Brooks was cast as Jimmy Olson for the Supergirl TV series?

Let's turn it around. Did it bother you when Liam Neeson was cast as Ra's in Batman Begins? When Scarlet Johansson will play The Major (Motoko Kusanagi) in Ghost in the Shell? When Jake Gyllenhaal played the title character in The Prince of Persia?

Or is it only Zendaya's possible casting as MJ that bothers you?

In order.

1) A little.
2) No because they already did that. But I miss original Nick Fury a little bit.
3) Yes.
4) No.
5) I don't know what race Candice Patton is or what race Iris West is supposed to be, so I cannot answer this question.
6) A little.
7) No.
8) Yes.
9) A little.
10) No, not just Zendaya. I also find Guy Pearce and Ben Kingsley in IM3 to be dumb (even though Kingsley delivers a great performance), Michael B. Jordan in FF to be silly (who is great in apollo, no so much in this), and Tilda Swinton as "The Ancient One" to be absurd (still looking forward to it).

I admit that I care more about characters I care about. Will Smith doesn't bother me as much because I don't care about Deadshot at ALL and I like Will Smith. Heimdall seemed weird because of the Norse blonde white viking image. Fury bothers me only a little because I don't see the Ultimate verse as an adaptation. I have no justification for Liam Neeson as Ra's Al Ghul. My only real experience with him prior to Begins was the Animated Series though, where skin hues were kinda the same between him and Batman, so I suspect my perception was ultimately colored by that.

I will say something like The Wiz or the Broadway play Hamilton don't bother me, because those things are quite different. But that's not really the case here.

This seems like info that I'll have to wait to see the movie before commenting on.

Yes just a theory.

but in context, definition 2 is essentially the academic interpretation: that systemic power propagates and enforces racism. this definition is why islamaphobia is technically racism. we can’t just cherry pick a word without the rest of the sentence.

No, there' s a distinct difference in scope. You can't pick one word, but in context the message is pretty clear, which is why I provided the additional Webster definition that is, I think more clear. And calling Islamophobia "racism" just depicts how cuckoo that definition is, since you can be any race and Muslim.

“discrimination” itself is not racism. it can be classist or sexist or based on how hot someone is.

All discrimination is not racism. All discrimination based on race is racism.

well, that gets into the debate of whether individuals are in control of the system or the other way around. and trusting individuals to fight against their own (often subconscious bias) is a huge risk and has not paid off.

Affirmative Action has been the law of the land for fifty years. Which policy hasn't paid off again?

Admittedly, the system one is in definitely influences one's individual actions. The trouble is that no one ever can identify what part of the system is racist and causing the problems. Because the "system" is set up to protect minorities.

you can still be an individual and part of a community (as you point out yourself). are we going to say that hollywood does not have a bias against asian actors as a group and simply has a personal bias against each individual actor who happens to be of asian descent?

Of course they will be part of both, but the thinking in the previous statement takes the group think too far. That there are other successful white actresses means nothing to that Waitress who goes to twelve audtions a week and never gets a call back. Similarly Zendaya getting cast in a movie doesn't make it more likely that another Waitress who is black will get a different job.

group x is different from group y. each group has their own personal experiences and challenges and privileges. colour blindness is a form of racism in itself. BET exists to reward creative members of black backgrounds, not to exclude white creatives (who are already disproportionately rewarded through the mainstream system).

Treating everyone equally is racism now. Yeah. Ok. The Absurdity of that idea is mind boggling.

To deny that different groups have different experience is silly, of course. But to treat them differently as a group because of that is to reinforce those differences. You want a non-biased set of standards and qualifications. Because then everyone knows what they have to do and knows it doesn't matter where they come from. Perhaps most importantly, this attitude doesn't assume that a black person came from a disadvantaged home life just because they're black, or that they're fabulously wealthy if they're white or asian. It assumes nothing. That's what being fair is.

if we agree the field is unequal how can we not treat each case on its individual needs? but really… if that really neat little image from my last post didn’t explain the point, i won’t be able to either.
the proof of the pudding is in the results not the rhetoric. if the roadblocks for all have truly been removed, why is there still an imbalance?

I WANT to treat each case on their individual needs. That's my whole point. The real world isn't so clean and neat that every situation is going to perfectly mirror a demographic pie chart even if everything IS fair.

And, frankly, everything isn't fair. There ARE still issues with policing and hiring that should be called out. If you're not calling someone back because they have a "black sounding" name, you're doing the wrong thing, for instance. The higher single parent households set African-Americans back to start as well. But fixing the race after everyone is done preparing for it is a poor solution. The solution is to make those negative environment to go away by encouraging people to do the right thing. It will take longer, to be sure, but actually solves the problem in a way quotas and the like do not.

and to bring it back to topic- for me, mary jane is fiction. fiction is infinitely open to reinterpretation. i’m happy for one iteration out of dozens (if not hundreds) to present a different physical interpretation. worked for nick fury.

A story has elements that if you stray too far from ceases to be that story. That's not to say the new story is bad. I love Spider-Man 2099, for instance. But SM2099 isn't Spider-Man. If you're going to use the name, certain expectations must be met.

[kurenai24]

Congrats to Zendaya



I don't think they're gonna do the red hair tho, most people don't even know that non-white redheads exist.

[boots]

No, there' s a distinct difference in scope. You can't pick one word, but in context the message is pretty clear, which is why I provided the additional Webster definition that is, I think more clear. And calling Islamophobia "racism" just depicts how cuckoo that definition is, since you can be any race and Muslim.




All discrimination is not racism. All discrimination based on race is racism.



Affirmative Action has been the law of the land for fifty years. Which policy hasn't paid off again?

Admittedly, the system one is in definitely influences one's individual actions. The trouble is that no one ever can identify what part of the system is racist and causing the problems. Because the "system" is set up to protect minorities.



Of course they will be part of both, but the thinking in the previous statement takes the group think too far. That there are other successful white actresses means nothing to that Waitress who goes to twelve audtions a week and never gets a call back. Similarly Zendaya getting cast in a movie doesn't make it more likely that another Waitress who is black will get a different job.



Treating everyone equally is racism now. Yeah. Ok. The Absurdity of that idea is mind boggling.

To deny that different groups have different experience is silly, of course. But to treat them differently as a group because of that is to reinforce those differences. You want a non-biased set of standards and qualifications. Because then everyone knows what they have to do and knows it doesn't matter where they come from. Perhaps most importantly, this attitude doesn't assume that a black person came from a disadvantaged home life just because they're black, or that they're fabulously wealthy if they're white or asian. It assumes nothing. That's what being fair is.



I WANT to treat each case on their individual needs. That's my whole point. The real world isn't so clean and neat that every situation is going to perfectly mirror a demographic pie chart even if everything IS fair.

And, frankly, everything isn't fair. There ARE still issues with policing and hiring that should be called out. If you're not calling someone back because they have a "black sounding" name, you're doing the wrong thing, for instance. The higher single parent households set African-Americans back to start as well. But fixing the race after everyone is done preparing for it is a poor solution. The solution is to make those negative environment to go away by encouraging people to do the right thing. It will take longer, to be sure, but actually solves the problem in a way quotas and the like do not.



A story has elements that if you stray too far from ceases to be that story. That's not to say the new story is bad. I love Spider-Man 2099, for instance. But SM2099 isn't Spider-Man. If you're going to use the name, certain expectations must be met.

no worries mate, i don’t think the difference between equity and equality will ever hold value for you.

“just treat everyone the same” is a deceptively simple solution, but the reliance on individuals to do the right thing (despite unconscious bias) is a major flaw.

[Xenon]

no worries mate, i don’t think the difference between equity and equality will ever hold value for you.

“just treat everyone the same” is a deceptively simple solution, but the reliance on individuals to do the right thing (despite unconscious bias) is a major flaw.

The value and costs of that difference is a bigger discussion I think. Decided not to try and tread too far down there because we were already way afield.

There are no perfect solutions, but you're not wrong about that flaw.

[Mister Mets]

This may be a weird way of looking at it, but I kinda doubt that the Mary Jane depicted in the comics would mind being portrayed by Zendaya in a film.

Her only problem would be that she's not asked to play herself.

[Kevinroc]

I'm going to just assume you're missing the point, so I'll try again. The question of "would you be mad if Luke Cage is Middle Eastern" removes the minority vs. majority angle to the question.

No, I got it. I think it's a flawed question.

Luke Cage makes a bad example of what you are asking, as Luke Cage is very clearly defined by his race. He was created during the blaxploitation craze and relies on the imagery, in a genre known for its wish fulfillment fantasies, of a bulletproof black man.

The question of "if we race swapped one minority for another" is not an equivalent when your asking using a character like Cage as your example. Because with Cage, the answer is "no."

If you had asked with another character not as defined by such imagery, if you had used War Machine as your example (as Rhodey never felt as defined by his race as Cage), it could potentially have worked as a question. Because, and this is just my opinion, you could potentially do something like that. (It wouldn't make some people very happy, but that's not really the question.)

The answer to your real question (can you recast one underrepresented minority with another) would be, it depends. But your specific example of Cage would be "no" because race is a major factor in Cage's character.

In order.

1) A little.
2) No because they already did that. But I miss original Nick Fury a little bit.
3) Yes.
4) No.
5) I don't know what race Candice Patton is or what race Iris West is supposed to be, so I cannot answer this question.
6) A little.
7) No.
8) Yes.
9) A little.
10) No, not just Zendaya. I also find Guy Pearce and Ben Kingsley in IM3 to be dumb (even though Kingsley delivers a great performance), Michael B. Jordan in FF to be silly (who is great in apollo, no so much in this), and Tilda Swinton as "The Ancient One" to be absurd (still looking forward to it).

I admit that I care more about characters I care about. Will Smith doesn't bother me as much because I don't care about Deadshot at ALL and I like Will Smith. Heimdall seemed weird because of the Norse blonde white viking image. Fury bothers me only a little because I don't see the Ultimate verse as an adaptation. I have no justification for Liam Neeson as Ra's Al Ghul. My only real experience with him prior to Begins was the Animated Series though, where skin hues were kinda the same between him and Batman, so I suspect my perception was ultimately colored by that.

I will say something like The Wiz or the Broadway play Hamilton don't bother me, because those things are quite different. But that's not really the case here.

I was mostly just curious. The practice of race swapping is not a new phenomenon. And if Zendaya as MJ is true, it won't be the last example of such a thing.

Tilda Swinton as The Ancient One is actually a great example of what you asked. As women in movies are underrepresented. They swapped an old Tibetan man for a white woman (because China would definitely not have allowed for a movie that acknowledges Tibet as such, and rather than substitute in another Asian, they used a white woman to completely sidestep any potential problem with the Chinese government).

[Confuzzled]

This may be a weird way of looking at it, but I kinda doubt that the Mary Jane depicted in the comics would mind being portrayed by Zendaya in a film.

MJ would be thrilled that she would be played by a member of Taylor Swift's squad who also appeared in Beyonce's Lemonade video album. You can't get more "in crowd" than Zendaya right now.

[Frontier]

Congrats to Zendaya



I don't think they're gonna do the red hair tho, most people don't even know that non-whites redheads exist.

Well, given the consensus seems to be she'd look great with red hair, it'd be awesome to see her as a redhead at the end of Homecoming .

Certainly be a good way of differentiating "Michelle" from "Mary Jane."

[Moral_Gutpunch]

This may be a weird way of looking at it, but I kinda doubt that the Mary Jane depicted in the comics would mind being portrayed by Zendaya in a film.

Her only problem would be that she's not asked to play herself.

Attractive, superstar, friendly, caring, compassionate...yup. I'd still like a redhead, though (non-white redheads might be rare, but they can also look amazing).

[Hypestyle]

she should perform a song on the soundtrack. Her character should be fun, flirty and flighty...