HOUSE OF X [05] : Society *Spoilers*

[ExodusCloak]

Krakoa isn't threatening to bomb other countries though.

Also Xavier isn't nearly as fat as Kim Jong un

I'm saying I don't blame North Korea for keeping it's weapons especially after having 15% of its population wiped out. Add on to that the USA toppling other countries, threatening the Libya model etc. I don't see the framing of N Korea as evil helpful

[Leirus]

They are not "good" or "evil". There are a society now. And we will read about the heroic and evil individues within it.

[RachelGrey]

Well 15% of the North Korean population were bombed to death by the USA in the 1950s. It just doesn't get talked about.

That's about 1.2 million people wiped out in a flash from the result of direct war.

That doesn't even include what the Americans did in Vietnam.

There is a reason they lost Vietnam, they couldn't build any alliances with any of the general population, they were so horrible to everyone, even the people who allied with them, that eventually the whole country turned against them and they weren't able to hold anything anymore. The Vietnamese were the same as the Afgani's were with Russia, they knew they didn't have the weapons or the manpower, but they could make the war cost the Americans, they could force the American's to literally burn money to try and hold territory in Vietnam until the American's were forced to get out. The human cost of the Vietnam war was just as bad as the cost of the Korean war. Part of the reason the Vietnamese turned to Communism in the first place was because no one, not even the United Nations would help them with the way the French were oppressing the Vietnamese people, the French colonists treated the Vietnamese like slaves and the Vietnamese finally found someone to help them, when they were denied help by the United Nations and America, they went to China and Russia for help and embraced Communism.

Politics are never simple, a lot of these countries that embrace dictators are often badly mistreated by the colonial interference of Europe and the United States. In Iran the US propped up the Shaw of Iran for years, giving him money, but at the same time he was a horrible dictator, so a large number of Iranians embraced the extremest faction that wanted to purge the country of Americans. They won, and in the end the United States ended up creating their own enemy because they had backed that monster Mohammad Reza Pahlavi for so long.

Sadaam was another CIA asset who was propped up by the US. Of course in his case the US had cut off his funding completely long before the Iraq war, after Kuwait. The United States messed up when they invaded Iraq, instead or protecting the schools, hospitals, education, and other infrastructure that would bring the general citizens to their side, the US focused on putting protective rings around the oil fields and they let the cities get looted and burned. So once again the Americans messed up and created a new enemy for themselves, they lost any good will they had with the Iraqi's because they didn't even try to properly police the country for weeks, they just let the entire nation fall to ruins. Schools destroyed, hospitals destroyed, museums destroyed. They let the Iraqi culture burn because it didn't have any monetary value so they made no effort to protect any of it in the looting and chaos. If they had just deployed themselves as an interim police force they could have tried to protect the infrastructure institutions, but once again those institutions didn't have any monetary value to the Americans, but they had cultural and sentimental value to the Iraqi's, and by allowing them to be destroyed the American's made a large number of the Iraqi's hate and despise them.

They did the same thing in Afganistan. They funded the war with Russia, they helped the Afgani's defeat Russia, but because the Russians pulled out the Americans made no effort to help the country rebuild, they just cut off all funding after the Russians were defeated. This allowed the extremest factions to walk in and take control, and everyone just sat on their hands and let it happen.

A lot of times a lot of problems would be prevented if you help a country liberate from oppression, help it properly rebuild after too, so that you gain the good will of the people of that country without having to support a dictator in the process.

[Stormultt Divine]

I'm saying I don't blame North Korea for keeping it's weapons especially after having 15% of its population wiped out. Add on to that the USA toppling other countries, threatening the Libya model etc. I don't see the framing of N Korea as evil helpful

Ohhh I see and yeah I mean this is the attitude I've had toward Krakoa since issue one lol, "can you really blame 'em?".

I see the cult'y parts as well but again...can anyone really blame them? lol.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

You can keep saying that, I just want you to know that it isn't true and you keep repeating it over and over doesn't make any more true. I love when people confronted by stuff that are grey nature leap to call it evil. If a kid is bullied every day by a group of kids for a year and the kid does nothing for a whole year just takes it them hit and spitting on him or her for a whole year. Then finally the kid take a bat and shatter the legs one of the people who is bullying is that kid who hit the person with a bat evil? I am not trying to change people minds of anything but if you are going omg the X-men are evil or not heroes now that isn't the full picture. It isn't simply just one thing good or bad.

That kid is a kid. What we're actually talking about is a set of characters going from being about changing the world for the better to just giving in because it was hard.

Yes, finally the X-Men will just usurp the regular humans because humans will die out, like they should have done from issue one. Outreach and creating human allies doesn't work so stop trying. Problem solved. Close the franchise.

This is a silly turning of the X-Men ideals, which won't be popular longterm because it isn't heroic, and fallout will inevitably hit select characters heads when it is time to fix it.

Mutant society is needed and has been done several times without "amnesty" protection from justice for particular groups and without giving up the idea of winning over humans instead of just waiting until they die off.


Let's not lose the heroism and graciousness shown from mutants (which is the actual point of having the series) for the sake of corny edginess.

"The X-Men Finally Give Up on the Dream" is not a solid idea for the franchise. It's an obvious angle for a What If.

This is like the Back to Africa Movement: cute to say, the merit in building up the homeland is obvious, but the abandoning of the hope of unity is just not a solid idea. Obviously, the answer is to keep working on the U.S.A AND continue/start the ascendance in Africa.

You keep working on the idea of living together with whit...er...humans AND build Krakoa. When they give up the former, the purpose of the series is lost. This may be too much critical thinking though.

[Stormultt Divine]

That kid is a kid. What we're actually talking about is a set of characters going from being about changing the world for the better to just giving in because it was hard.

'Because it was hard' is a massive understatement, being wiped out time and time again is a little more than just 'hard'.

They are heroes, to their own kind and a lot of people can see that, there is nothing wrong with them giving up their marysue ways that only lead to FAILURE anyways imo.
If Wakanda and Atlantis can watch out for their own then what's the issue with Mutants now doing the same?

They are not "good" or "evil". There are a society now. And we will read about the heroic and evil individues within it.

Agreed.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

'Because it was hard' is a massive understatement, being wiped out time and time again is a little more than just 'hard'.

They are heroes, to their own kind and a lot of people can see that, there is nothing wrong with them giving up their marysue ways that only lead to FAILURE anyways imo.
If Wakanda and Atlantis can watch out for their own then what's the issue with Mutants now doing the same?

The X-Men can watch out for their own and always have. They should still be working on uniting humanity, being that they are heroes and not just politicians.

[Stormultt Divine]

Well duh. They can't win because that's the end of needing to read about them in any light different from the Avengers.

And no one wants to read the same depressing stories over and over again and since they cannot win cue the change in their 'status quo'.

[Pav]

Better to live in a world in which a person can walk freely than one in which we merely dream of the notion.

-Pav, who loves watching the imagined dream become complex reality...

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

And no one wants to read the same depressing stories over and over again and since they cannot win cue the change in their 'status quo'.

What do you think the stories will be about moving forward? Humans attempting to oppress mutants, with some of those humans succeeding in doing awful things. That conflict isn't going away, but what seems to be going away is the idea that the X-Men are working to get everyone to live together.

The immediate childish hype of this particular day and time aside, it is going to remain important for the X-Men to be heroes.

We will see how/if that aspect is adequately maintained.

[Snoop Dogg]

Just found about the complexities of international politics and how they can be reflected in my fictional entertainment... This **** sucks, man...

[Stormultt Divine]

The X-Men can watch out for their own and always have. They should still be working on uniting humanity, being that they are heroes and not just politicians.

That's what we have Emma for now, she pretty much united Krakoa and Russia.

[RachelGrey]

That kid is a kid. What we're actually talking about is a set of characters going from being about changing the world for the better to just giving in because it was hard.

Yes, finally the X-Men will just usurp the regular humans because humans will die out, like they should have done from issue one. Outreach and creating human allies doesn't work so stop trying. Problem solved. Close the franchise.

This is a silly turning of the X-Men ideals, which won't be popular longterm because it isn't heroic, and fallout will inevitably hit select characters heads when it is time to fix it.

Mutant society is needed and has been done several times without "amnesty" protection from justice for particular groups and without giving up the idea of winning over humans instead of just waiting until they die off.


Let's not lose the heroism and graciousness shown from mutants (which is the actual point of having the series) for the sake of corny edginess.

"The X-Men Finally Give Up on the Dream" is not a solid idea for the franchise. It's an obvious angle for a What If.

This like the Back to Africa Movement: cute to say, the merit in building up the homeland is obvious, but the abandoning of the hope of unity is just not a solid idea. Obviously, the answer is to keep working on the U.S.A AND continue/start the ascendance in Africa.

You keep working on the idea of living together AND build Krakoa. When they give up the former, the purpose of the series is lost. This may be too much critical thinking though.

I disagree. I think that they can still work toward alliances with human nations. They are changing the stakes and altering the political landscape. Now when they negotiate with the humans they are not doing it form a place of weakness or submission, they can stand toe to toe and say we will accept trade and technology sharing with you as long as you absolutely 100% respect mutant rights.

I think the Amnesty Arrangement is similar to the formation of Israel in the late 1940's. As the Krakoan government signs treaties with all the governments, they make arrangements for all mutants to have access to a fresh start program. We will negotiate for and grant you amnesty to enter the country of Krakoa and we will grant amnesty from your past crimes. All will be treated as equal and your slate will be wiped clean so that you can rebuild your life on Krakoa. Now of course this gives the non-mutant countries the right to deport mutants to Krakoa, which in a sense the Krakoans actually want the human nations to do.

The human nations are like, finally we can get rid of our mutant problem and just deport them out so someone else has to deal with them. The Krakoans are like, yay, thanks for helping us increase our population and making us a strong and more powerful nation.

The Amnesty Arrangement may even have a term limit, where places like the United States can acknowledge some of their problems with mutant criminals were caused by oppressive policies, now they have this treaty with the mutant nation of Krakoa, and these mutant criminals who cost a lot of money to keep incarcerated can be deported to Krakoa and have their US citizenship permanently revoked.

At this point does Emma Frost, Jean Grey, Scott Summers, et al have US citizenship any longer or are they all stripped of their US citizenship when they joined the new nation of Krakoa. So now do they have to carry Krakoan passports to visit other countries.

House of X is not telling the story of super heroes, it is telling the story of the rise of the mutant nation and all the benefits and problems that is going to bring in the future. Will they regret offering amnesty to everyone? Probably there are some of them that will commit crimes, but I think a lot of these people who are labelled villains by American laws will actually be happy as productive and loyal Krakoan citizens. There are going to be some bad apples, but I think there will be more villains embracing the new nation than you think.

It's not like something similar hasn't happened before. Criminals were offloaded to Canada, Australia, and New Zealand by the British Empire to empty the prisons and save money. They were granted pardons in exchange for terms of labour in the colonies. Once you finished your labour term for which you did have to be paid, you were free to pursue your life free and clear of your past crimes.

[Rosebunse]

What do you think the stories will be about moving forward? Humans attempting to oppress mutants, with some of those humans succeeding in doing awful things. That conflict isn't going away, but seems to be going away is the idea that the X-Men are working to get everyone to live together.

No, the idea is that the X-Men are trying to make the world better for them. It just happens to be practical to try and appease the humans to do that...at the moment.

[Pav]

What do you think the stories will be about moving forward? Humans attempting to oppress mutants, with some of those humans succeeding in doing awful things. That conflict isn't going away, but seems to be going away is the idea that the X-Men are working to get everyone to live together.

The X-Men are recognizing that their survival as a species demands a change in their understanding of what "together" means.

Are mutants and humans not living together? They still share a planet, and we've seen that most countries in the world have recognized Krakoa. It's certainly true that "together" doesn't seem to imply a trend towards loving peace and understanding -- but what would you do in the place of mutants? Ideally, we may want to love the enemy as a friend, but if the enemy chooses to wipe your people from the planet, might it not be wise to change one's ideals in the face of utter annihilation?

-Pav, who is glad for the conversation...

EDIT: For what it's worth, I've always been fascinated by the mutants who have lives outside being superheroes: Madrox as a PI, Bishop as a cop, Dazzler and X-Statix as celebrities, and so on --- that's always been something I've wanted further developed in the comics. So I'm all in for Emma as diplomat, Doug as Krakoan translator, The Five as almost religious paragons, and whatever else Hickman has planned for each character.