X-men #19 Review/Spoiler - In the Fire of Each Other

[Rang10]

I think you should drop the comic ASAP if you feel that way. Also I believe Marvel just signed a deal with Penguin Random House so they aren't going to use Diamond anymore.

Diamond will continue to distribute if retailers orders via Diamond. And Comichron has access to the numbers, it won't be a problem anyway

[Nazrel]

Diamond will continue to distribute if retailers orders via Diamond. And Comichron has access to the numbers, it won't be a problem anyway

Comichron has always only relied on the data provided from Diamond (and thus has always been grossly incomplete), and everyone hates Diamond, on every level; they persisted only via their monopoly, so if in fact Marvel signed with Penguin for distribution of the single issues... they're probably %$#@ed.

[Rang10]

Comichron has always only relied on the data provided from Diamond (and thus has always been grossly incomplete), and everyone hates Diamond, on every level; they persisted only via their monopoly, so if in fact Marvel signed with Penguin for distribution of the single issues... they're probably %$#@ed.

Comichron guy already said, they have their own methods to get numbers. But Diamond is really screwed.

[dkrook]

I think CoV are homo novossima, and always have been.So Moira trying to prevent humanity from getting there is a lost cause.My thinking in life 6 they are all blue coz maybe CoV defeated Apocalypse in the life and also atomised him and infused his being into their evolution cycle machine and perhaps all turned blue.Now that I've read this issue my suspicions seem reinforced.I always had that feeling, just couldn't get why they were all blue.Maybe they pulled of a Magneto move in the first X men film turning Apocalypse into some sort of 'mothervine' but that made all humanity novissima uniformly with only the hue of the skin being the give away

What has me thinking is that for all the hate CoV have for mutants. How do they reconcile the fact they have mutants DNA mixed into them on so many levels and over a period of time they really seem to have become a slight variation of the same thing? It's like me having a blood feud with my first cousin? Sidenote, if Everett doesn't ending leading all mutants on the island....there's no justice!

[dkrook]

You are comparing apples to oranges. The problem with the story isn't that it's focused on Synch. The problem is that the other characters are treated like props. We don't know why Synch loves Laura. Is it her humor?Her smile?Her shiny claws?
To switch it we don't know why Laura loves Synch. We get very very little about her feelings and thoughts. You can have a Synch focused story dealing with the Vault and still give us insight into Laura and Darwin. The brief, even though Hickman came up with that to, was 2 issues. He knew how many panels he had. What he wanted to achieve. In general any story that retells years are inherintly suspectible to these problems. The passage of time and it's effects are harder to portray without anchoring it in moments for us to relate to. That makes us feel that progress has been made and it's a actual person experiencing them. Not just a list of events with effects. Hickman wanted us to relate to Synch and experience the story through him. His feelings where suppose to tie us the to progression the story and the years do. Yet as has been pointed out before what do we know about Synch as a character after these issues? How could it not be any other character narrating those experiences. If we put any late teen-early twenty male character in that spot. All they need beyond their powers(witch are not personality) is parents who gave them general advice on what love is. No specific beats that have anything to do with Synchs humor. Experiences. Temper. And so on.

It would have been so easy to add just some moments where we see Laura talk about how it has been for her. Tell us why she loves Synch. Why Darwin is a good friend. Multipurpose dialogue that advancs the plot and gives us insight. We didnt' get that. We don't get any Darwin dialogue(issue 19).

Hickman bet on that since Darwin and Laura gets reset and Synch doesn't. We only need to follows Synch journey since the other two's become void after the reset. He probably thinks this is a clever mirroring. So the story treats the other two characters like they are redundant. Darwin is there to get captured. Laura is there for Synch to fall in love with. Beyond the premise of it being them for the survival aspect of their powers that is their roles. So yes they are props. It's very much intended. And yes it still sucks.

After rereading your post, I do find myself reevaluating and agreeing with you about there should have been way more written dialogue for Laura and Darwin. Especially if Synch is providing main narration. This can be done while keeping most of the same elements in place, but would add significantly more to the overall gravity of the story.

[Rev9]

What has me thinking is that for all the hate CoV have for mutants. How do they reconcile the fact they have mutants DNA mixed into them on so many levels and over a period of time they really seem to have become a slight variation of the same thing? It's like me having a blood feud with my first cousin? Sidenote, if Everett doesn't ending leading all mutants on the island....there's no justice!

Yeah they were even human once, but scientifically they are a different species, even if they are now adding Darwin's DNA into their own , the way time passes in there means biology still follows the rules that isolated species over vast timespans still drift genetically from other species to a point where they cannot inter breed. So even with Darwin's DNA they are still neither mutant nor human due to how they evolve.Though yes if they weren't so adamant in their uniqueness or sense of superiority they would admit we all share common ancestors

[Grunty]

What has me thinking is that for all the hate CoV have for mutants. How do they reconcile the fact they have mutants DNA mixed into them on so many levels and over a period of time they really seem to have become a slight variation of the same thing? It's like me having a blood feud with my first cousin?

I can't pinpoint where i got this information from, so it should be taken with a grain of salt, but i recall it has once been explained that what the X-gene does is to form and fuel the super power potential all humans in the Marvel Universe have ever since the celestials altered their ancestors.

This is also where the problem with creating Sentinels to "protect humans from mutants" comes from. Because all humans have the potential to produce mutant offsprings and all mutants the potential to produce baseline human offsprings (or mutants so weak powered they are identical to normal humans). Hence why the Sentinels come to the conclusion that humans need to be protected from themself via enslavement.
Or in Moira X's memories. Altering humans to the point where they can no longer produce mutant or normal human offpsrings (see the Librians talking of "humans" when he talks of the mutants "preserved" in the dome).

Meanwhile various artifical means of giving super powers often result in the human in question having their natural super powers replaced with an artifical one specific to the treatment that empowers them. Like how Peter Parker, Gwen Stacy or Miles Morales might have had super power potential to something else than spiderpowers. But since they got their DNA alterered by the venom and salvia of a modified spider, their bodies adopted spider powers.

Groups like the Fantastic Four and the Inhumans would be best classed as third in between form. Since both of these groups gained powers through artifical means, but the powers they received might have been their natural ones. Hence the randomness involved in what they gained, just like how X-Gene mutants recieve wildly different powers from it.

Which also puts the mutants depowered by M-day into an interesting perspective. Because normaly when a mutant's powers get supressed by natural or artifical means they tend to revert back to their natural unpowered human state either right away or over time (compare the 2000 storyline where the High Evolutionary put Earth under a depowering field). But many M-day victims retained parts of their altered form and didn't become normal human (which without secondary super powers to maintain their form in a healthy state caused some deaths).
That's because what Scarlet Witch's curse did was to rip the X-gene out of it's socket (metaphorical speaking), instead of switching it off and leaving it in leaving it in place.

This also fits in how depowered mutants, who got their powers back via alternative means (Magneto, Marrow, Polaris, etc.) all got their original powers back, since these were allready activated via their X-gene once, they just needed a different fuel source to re-activate them. Meaning in the end they had remained mutants, rather than becoming baseline humans, for whom their powers are still locked away.

Now what does this mean for the Children of the Vault?
Well, from what we can see they essentialy fall into the second type of empowered humans. Those who's natural super powers were replaced by a specific new one via their artifical means of empowerment. All Children are designed to have a specifically designed and assigned super power.

Their natural super power potential is essentialy GONE and can't come back anymore. Which fits into how they consider both normal humans and mutants their natural enemy. But it also means that they are in a way super powered steril. Since they can never gain powers again via natural randomness, but need to develop and modify existing ones and create new individuals to include them.

At this point we could draw paralles to the Borg from Star Trek, who are very capable in applying technology, but lost the ability to create it by themself. Hence needing to steal it from other races. Which now that i think about it would actualy explain why despite their 60000+ years of "evolving" the Children of the Vault seem so stagnant.

Which however also means that they likely have no problem with picking up new super powers elsewhere, like from the DNA of mutants, especialy one who has the power to automatically modify and adept to things that endanger his life.

Basicly all they need to do for their ideology is to seperated the source of the super power from it's design. If they only copy the powers of mutants, but not their X-genes they would remain "pure". So to speak.

It also somewhat shows the still existing divide between the Children of the Vault and the Homo Novissima. Because the later's big deal (as far as i understood it) was that they could have an power they want, in any individual of their race, at any time. Essentialy gaining the benefit of mutants, being born with super powers, but without the randomness of what they would gain.
Meanwhile each COV needs to be created with a specific power from scratch, a power their entire life then revolves around.

It's also why i consider it a dangerous possibiltiy that Xavier's big plan might be to turn mutants into Homo Novissima. Winning the war between "humans and mutants" by becoming post humans first, rather than stopping their existence.

[Rev9]

I can't pinpoint where i got this information from, so it should be taken with a grain of salt, but i recall it has once been explained that what the X-gene does is to form and fuel the super power potential all humans in the Marvel Universe have ever since the celestials altered their ancestors.

This is also where the problem with creating Sentinels to "protect humans from mutants" comes from. Because all humans have the potential to produce mutant offsprings and all mutants the potential to produce baseline human offsprings (or mutants so weak powered they are identical to normal humans). Hence why the Sentinels come to the conclusion that humans need to be protected from themself via enslavement.
Or in Moira X's memories. Altering humans to the point where they can no longer produce mutant or normal human offpsrings (see the Librians talking of "humans" when he talks of the mutants "preserved" in the dome).

Meanwhile various artifical means of giving super powers often result in the human in question having their natural super powers replaced with an artifical one specific to the treatment that empowers them. Like how Peter Parker, Gwen Stacy or Miles Morales might have had super power potential to something else than spiderpowers. But since they got their DNA alterered by the venom and salvia of a modified spider, their bodies adopted spider powers.

Groups like the Fantastic Four and the Inhumans would be best classed as third in between form. Since both of these groups gained powers through artifical means, but the powers they received might have been their natural ones. Hence the randomness involved in what they gained, just like how X-Gene mutants recieve wildly different powers from it.

Which also puts the mutants depowered by M-day into an interesting perspective. Because normaly when a mutant's powers get supressed by natural or artifical means they tend to revert back to their natural unpowered human state either right away or over time (compare the 2000 storyline where the High Evolutionary put Earth under a depowering field). But many M-day victims retained parts of their altered form and didn't become normal human (which without secondary super powers to maintain their form in a healthy state caused some deaths).
That's because what Scarlet Witch's curse did was to rip the X-gene out of it's socket (metaphorical speaking), instead of switching it off and leaving it in leaving it in place.

This also fits in how depowered mutants, who got their powers back via alternative means (Magneto, Marrow, Polaris, etc.) all got their original powers back, since these were allready activated via their X-gene once, they just needed a different fuel source to re-activate them. Meaning in the end they had remained mutants, rather than becoming baseline humans, for whom their powers are still locked away.

Now what does this mean for the Children of the Vault?
Well, from what we can see they essentialy fall into the second type of empowered humans. Those who's natural super powers were replaced by a specific new one via their artifical means of empowerment. All Children are designed to have a specifically designed and assigned super power.

Their natural super power potential is essentialy GONE and can't come back anymore. Which fits into how they consider both normal humans and mutants their natural enemy. But it also means that they are in a way super powered steril. Since they can never gain powers again via natural randomness, but need to develop and modify existing ones and create new individuals to include them.

At this point we could draw paralles to the Borg from Star Trek, who are very capable in applying technology, but lost the ability to create it by themself. Hence needing to steal it from other races. Which now that i think about it would actualy explain why despite their 60000+ years of "evolving" the Children of the Vault seem so stagnant.

Which however also means that they likely have no problem with picking up new super powers elsewhere, like from the DNA of mutants, especialy one who has the power to automatically modify and adept to things that endanger his life.

Basicly all they need to do for their ideology is to seperated the source of the super power from it's design. If they only copy the powers of mutants, but not their X-genes they would remain "pure". So to speak.

It also somewhat shows the still existing divide between the Children of the Vault and the Homo Novissima. Because the later's big deal (as far as i understood it) was that they could have an power they want, in any individual of their race, at any time. Essentialy gaining the benefit of mutants, being born with super powers, but without the randomness of what they would gain.
Meanwhile each COV needs to be created with a specific power from scratch, a power their entire life then revolves around.

It's also why i consider it a dangerous possibiltiy that Xavier's big plan might be to turn mutants into Homo Novissima. Winning the war between "humans and mutants" by becoming post humans first, rather than stopping their existence.

Good analysis, although there are a lot of unknowns about the CoV, maybe it was humans who started the program,maybe it was Josef Huber(who apparently is neither human nor mutant), who has an unlimited number of abilities and found the way to get rid of them was transfer them to test subjects.I just thought of this on the spot but would be fun if they reveal that the vault is his project(sort of a reverse on Legion) We'll have to wait and see.CoV are my fave and most intriguing villains in X-Men universe.If they are after species purity then at atomic level their 'gene therapy' if you will is too advanced, if you can sequence a being or evolution at an atomic level then that is beyond anything mutants except maybe Omegas like Braddock or Mr.M can do.Now can Darwin still even at atomic level switch off their powers sort of like how Sinister can kill Hellions with a switch or Waller can execute the Suicide Squad? Time will tell but interesting thought if he could.I do believe that especially with how mutant sentience is almost hinged on Cerebro, then once killed out of Cerebro's reach ,the CoV can reconfigure Darwin as one of their own no problem.Again we'll have to wait and see.

What you say at the end is also what I thought many months ago ,when I saw Xavier sending the trio into the vault I had a similar idea to yours.I figure he wanted three things 1.To steal the knowhow of the CoV to fast track evolution hence the tissue sample collection by Synch(intellectual property theft if you will), 2.He wanted to find a way to sabotage or scuttle the vault if possible but most importantly 3 He wanted the trio to themselves evolve into homo superior-novissima as a failsafe , crazy but maybe he thought in the event mutants lose, Synch and Laura could repopulate the mutant race in a post human world. The third option opens a can of worms because although I don't want to think it,what if Xavier implanted thoughts and feelings of attraction towards Laura in Synch? That is incredibly devious and unethical to even contemplate ..

[Sutekh]

Their natural super power potential is essentialy GONE and can't come back anymore. Which fits into how they consider both normal humans and mutants their natural enemy. But it also means that they are in a way super powered steril. Since they can never gain powers again via natural randomness, but need to develop and modify existing ones and create new individuals to include them.

At this point we could draw paralles to the Borg from Star Trek, who are very capable in applying technology, but lost the ability to create it by themself. Hence needing to steal it from other races. Which now that i think about it would actually explain why despite their 60000+ years of "evolving" the Children of the Vault seem so stagnant.

Which however also means that they likely have no problem with picking up new super powers elsewhere, like from the DNA of mutants, especialy one who has the power to automatically modify and adept to things that endanger his life.

Great analysis, Grunty!

And it is indeed interesting that the Children of the Vault have essentially cut themselves off from ever having any true Omegas, since they've poisoned the well that gives random mutations (including the truly sucky ones, like Beak, but also the goddesses like Storm) in favor of having a bunch of Alphas.

Terrigenesis, of the various other means to unlock powers, can still put out people like Crystal and Black Bolt, who seem pretty close to Omega-tier, and while we haven't seen as much of that from cosmic rays (with Johnny and his nova-blast, and Sue and her force fields being closest to real power we've seen), which makes it seem like they are more like the 'unlock the latent mutation you would have had' than options like radioactive spider-bites or super-soldier serums, which tend to have more tailored (and therefore limiting) effects. Gamma rays seem in the middle. Sometimes they are tailored (big green brute), other times their effects seem more random or 'mutant-y' (the Leader, Harpy, etc.).

It would be fascinating to find out that the Children of the Vault, for all their rhetoric are the result of 'old thinking' and incomplete data, and represent an evolutionary dead end, because they're creator didn't understand the importance of allowing the X-gene it's full range of expression.

Interestingly, it seems like the Inhumans had a similar schism. Their current doctrine, under Black Bolt, that Terrigenesis be allowed to be random, it's even part of their religious creed, but in the past, presumably under the previous king, whom the current royal family overthrew (perhaps for this very heresy?), 'tailored' Inhumans were seen on several occasions, including multiple plant-Inhumans (said to be the results of experiments with Terrigen and plant DNA), a family centaur-Inhumans like Stallior and the Delphi brothers (who would be as different as Karnak and Triton, under a 'proper' random Terrigenesis) and even an entire race of winged Inhumans!

Where it does get squiffy is what happens when mutants start tailoring their own X-gene expression. There is no 'defying the will of the Terrigen' on Krakoa. If, say, Beak, makes a wish for wings that work, I don't think it's messing with the Celestials long-term plans to tweak his X-gene to grant that wish, and any 'pretty mutant' who suggests that he should just suck it up and embrace the suck that is his current mutation doesn't really have a shapely perfect human-looking leg to stand on.

[Rev9]

Great analysis, Grunty!

And it is indeed interesting that the Children of the Vault have essentially cut themselves off from ever having any true Omegas, since they've poisoned the well that gives random mutations (including the truly sucky ones, like Beak, but also the goddesses like Storm) in favor of having a bunch of Alphas.

Terrigenesis, of the various other means to unlock powers, can still put out people like Crystal and Black Bolt, who seem pretty close to Omega-tier, and while we haven't seen as much of that from cosmic rays (with Johnny and his nova-blast, and Sue and her force fields being closest to real power we've seen), which makes it seem like they are more like the 'unlock the latent mutation you would have had' than options like radioactive spider-bites or super-soldier serums, which tend to have more tailored (and therefore limiting) effects. Gamma rays seem in the middle. Sometimes they are tailored (big green brute), other times their effects seem more random or 'mutant-y' (the Leader, Harpy, etc.).

It would be fascinating to find out that the Children of the Vault, for all their rhetoric are the result of 'old thinking' and incomplete data, and represent an evolutionary dead end, because they're creator didn't understand the importance of allowing the X-gene it's full range of expression.

Interestingly, it seems like the Inhumans had a similar schism. Their current doctrine, under Black Bolt, that Terrigenesis be allowed to be random, it's even part of their religious creed, but in the past, presumably under the previous king, whom the current royal family overthrew (perhaps for this very heresy?), 'tailored' Inhumans were seen on several occasions, including multiple plant-Inhumans (said to be the results of experiments with Terrigen and plant DNA), a family centaur-Inhumans like Stallior and the Delphi brothers (who would be as different as Karnak and Triton, under a 'proper' random Terrigenesis) and even an entire race of winged Inhumans!

Where it does get squiffy is what happens when mutants start tailoring their own X-gene expression. There is no 'defying the will of the Terrigen' on Krakoa. If, say, Beak, makes a wish for wings that work, I don't think it's messing with the Celestials long-term plans to tweak his X-gene to grant that wish, and any 'pretty mutant' who suggests that he should just suck it up and embrace the suck that is his current mutation doesn't really have a shapely perfect human-looking leg to stand on.

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that CoV don't have Omegas.There is no basis for such an assumption at least on how advanced the vault is.Moreover I remember in Xmen#5 there was a pod named 'Empire' (or 'Imperial' I think it was the former) Definitely CoV have a hierarchy and their leaders so far are not even Aguja and crew but the likes of Cadena,Corrigidora and others yet unknown.So could 'Empire' pods house 5 'Omega' children? We don't know , but I just wouldn't rule it out.Their vault is directing evolution, by numerical math it is much more likely you get an Omega by design than by random mutation.If their designation of Omega is beyond level 3 then without Darwin they couldn't get Omegas ,but now can, but then again how sure are we Omegas weren't there in the vault even at baseline level?...we just don't know to be unequivocally certain

As for mutants tweaking their own genes, although I have no proof, I would wager either X and M gave some leeway to Sinister for this or he is doing it secretly.We know that chimaeras were made in life 9, whether that step can only be taken with some advancements in Krakoa, or begin because Xavier got knowledge or muscle memory power readings from Synch being able to copy non mutant abilities, we can only guess.Maybe events are happening just as before but sooner than in life 9 ,who knows? What I do think though is the whole crucible and non crucible resurrection with 'wills' for improved of new abilities could lead to genetic modification programmes on Krakoa and if that happens they embrace the homo novissima game(if they haven't already)

[Thievery]

This was the best issue of Hickman's X-Men so far, in my opinion. Really enjoyable. The rest of his X-Men issues have been pretty much boring filler.

The one problem that I did have with it was the idea that Laura and Synch were able to avoid the Children for as long as they did. I know that there were explanations given, but they felt pretty weak to me.

As far as the Synch/Laura relationship goes, I'm going to take a guess and say that this becomes an unrequited love story for Synch. I really think that Synch could be headed for some heartbreak here.
I just don't see how you give Laura her memories of their romance back. I guess that you could do a story about Sync trying to win Laura's feelings back using his knowledge and insight of her as a person , but I would think that Laura would find Sync having all of this knowledge about who she is and what makes her who she is to be a little creepy.
But, what do I know. I've been wrong a lot in the past.
I do think that it was a good idea to show the romance only from the view of Synch.

[Sutekh]

I just don't see how you give Laura her memories of their romance back.

It's totally mean to Synch, but I kind of prefer the angst of it being unrequited, to the magical telepathy 'Jean has the memories of Madelyne, and her replacement Phoenix doppleganger, and raising Cable as Redd, and teen Jean and somehow 'counts' as all these other women who she ****ing isn't...' BS.

[Rev9]

This was the best issue of Hickman's X-Men so far, in my opinion. Really enjoyable. The rest of his X-Men issues have been pretty much boring filler.

The one problem that I did have with it was the idea that Laura and Synch were able to avoid the Children for as long as they did. I know that there were explanations given, but they felt pretty weak to me.

As far as the Synch/Laura relationship goes, I'm going to take a guess and say that this becomes an unrequited love story for Synch. I really think that Synch could be headed for some heartbreak here.
I just don't see how you give Laura her memories of their romance back. I guess that you could do a story about Sync trying to win Laura's feelings back using his knowledge and insight of her as a person , but I would think that Laura would find Sync having all of this knowledge about who she is and what makes her who she is to be a little creepy.
But, what do I know. I've been wrong a lot in the past.
I do think that it was a good idea to show the romance only from the view of Synch.

Yep he's in a tight spot, the only way to give him closure , is to say he ran off and expected his vault Laura died, but have the CoV repurpose her like they did Darwin, with her memories intact to evolve along with them and she realises the vault has given her new abilities or made her an even more efficient/powerful being.So that when she comes back ,she like Genesis in Amenth, recognises Synch ,but no longer has allegiance to mutantdom, and wants him to evolve in the vault like she did, they can even bring her and Darwin out as a duo both evolved by the vault to have a 'reunion' with their colleague ,but it will be a darker twist on their romance.At least this way Synch can feel like he makes the right choice no matter what he does.With 'new' Laura, I don't know it's really hard on her because she's like some reincarnated dead girlfriend out of Vampire Diaries, it has a semblance of potential do-over but then again, she is not limited in her options to feel something else or feel something for someone else as they're not in the vault anymore.Synch cannot begrudge that.He probably suffered so much in there that she is the only good memory he has of the ordeal and so I doubt he'd want that memory erased and for the sake of his character growth he shouldn't but damn living like that knowing Laura exists but doesn't know of the history an iteration of her shared with him ,must be agony.

[Rev9]

It's totally mean to Synch, but I kind of prefer the angst of it being unrequited, to the magical telepathy 'Jean has the memories of Madelyne, and her replacement Phoenix doppleganger, and raising Cable as Redd, and teen Jean and somehow 'counts' as all these other women who she ****ing isn't...' BS.

God no, not that bull.Let him just opt to join the council, now that he's mentally older and likely wiser than all but Exodus on there.Maybe thinking of the big stuff won't make him sweat the on the matters of the heart.

[silvercover]

Actually it is not impossible, the vault is sentient and adapts also or changes to either hasten or impede evolution.So since Darwin lost his arm years after they entered the vault, it means the vault calibrated their drones to strike ,knowing that there were mutants that are hard to dispose of and already survived the previous blast it thought sufficient.It is probably the reason why he was captured and nuked at all.My logical conclusion is that the vault kept adapting its weaponry to nullify their abilities, and it eventually succeeded.

nah I mean I can accept the vault managing to kill darwin, since in the end its not like he's an omega and we dont really know what his limits are like if he only has a certain number of lives or how much he can adapt. losing the arm to laura though doesn't feel to me that should be possible for him since my impression is his body adapts automatically, but maybe I guess I missed a time where he was able to consciously control when he adapts or not, though I dont think he should have also been damaged by the explosion from the previous issue.