Amazing Spider-Man 54.LR discussion

[NC_Yankee]

No way. DidnÂ’t we get enough of Otto during SlottÂ’s run? I agree Norman is also over exposed, but itÂ’s nice to see Harry as a villain again even if Spencer wonÂ’t pull it off as well as DeMatteis. As for Kingsley... what a bland character... he never did anything for me. Even Phil was better as Hobby.

What we really need are some great, semi-forgotten characters back again, like Vermin, Chance (who did re-appear recently), Swarm, Fusion, Hammerhead, Black Tarantula, Hydro-Man, Rhino, Shocker, Looter, Taskmaster, Cardiac, Smythe and his Spider-Slayers, Carrion, many great underused characters to pull from.

I agree with you about needing to find different villains ( I would add Sandman to that list). As for Osborn, The problem I have always had with Norman is he is a one dimensional character. Basically he is a crazy, evil millionaire who no one really likes and wants to be around, he only gets people by bribing them. The best bad guys are the ones with redeeming characteristics. Victor Von Doom and Kraven have a sense of honor, Rhino loved his wife, Otto loves Anna Maria, Fisk loved his wife and son etc.

[HypnoHustler]

I agree with you about needing to find different villains ( I would add Sandman to that list). As for Osborn, The problem I have always had with Norman is he is a one dimensional character. Basically he is a crazy, evil millionaire who no one really likes and wants to be around, he only gets people by bribing them. The best bad guys are the ones with redeeming characteristics. Victor Von Doom and Kraven have a sense of honor, Rhino loved his wife, Otto loves Anna Maria, Fisk loved his wife and son etc.

I think it’s okay to have a complete amoral sociopath like Norman, because he will do things and go places that other bad guys won’t. Not even Doc Ock. He will push Peter to the brink of madness. Many of Peter’s best stories have involved Norman... not just death of Gwen Stacy and ASM#39-40, but post-return like Spider-Man#75, ‘Death in the Family’, and the ‘Marvel Knights: Spider-Man’ storyline to name just a few. But Norman is like rich chocolate. He’s good in small doses and the less you have the more special it is. He’s been over exposed by both Slott and then Spencer in recent years. He needs to cool off for about 4 or 5 years imo.

[Knightmare10880]

I finally got to sit down and read the issue and then afterwards, I've been sitting here trying to figure out how to describe my thoughts.

First off this shows again why I am so sick of Norman Osborn in the main comics, it's always the same criminal mastermind BS he's got a plan and all that. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised after that future cover with him and Kingpin was released but this just comes out of nowhere and honestly to me feels forced. This was supposed to be a story about Peter and Harry and it just keeps getting muddled.

Then there's the pacing and the issue I've had with so many big stories over the last few years at Marvel is once again showing up. The story has been so stretched out and now they are just throwing everything in at the end because they've only got two issues left for this are to fill the trade and I'm just tired of it. What's really sad is that up to this point I was enjoying the story even with how stretched the "main" issues were I found myself enjoying it when reading them together with the "LR" issues.

I don't want to be negative, I really don't and I'm still hoping that next week's issue will be good but after finishing this issue I'm no longer as excited as I was two weeks ago for the finale of this story.

[Lukmendes]

Most of us agree with OMD being a F -Up, and it needs to be addressed. But there is no need to bring up The Other or Silk to name two reviled stories. If Spencer’s goal was to deal with OMD thru Kindred, then so be it. I am certainly on the top of the list of those who want it erased, but if you do not then man up and explain why it must remain ? But a long drawn out process is not the way to handle things ( especially when you chose Harry instead of an out of the box selection like The Burglar or Crime Master as Kindred).

The Other isn't even here, so I dunno what you're talking about, and Cindy is in this because the other Spider-People are here, excluding her specifically would be odd, specially since she's friends with Peter, it's bizarre enough that neither Kaine or Ben are around, and they're closer to Peter than any of those other Spiders, except maybe Miles.

Honestly, your comment just make me think in Metal Gear Solid 4, with Snake opening narration "Goblins. Goblins never change".

Snake says there "War has changed" though lol.

I guess that one could be applied to Harry, 'cause at least his methods have changed .

Also i read the issue, and it was decent thought i still we should have gotten here sooner lol.

"Should get to a point sooner" is this arc's main problem in a nutshell.

Funny to think Osborn has been back (24(!!!) years since 1996) longer than he was dead now (23 years).

Damn, that's been a while huh lol.

What we really need are some great, semi-forgotten characters back again, like Vermin, Chance (who did re-appear recently), Swarm, Fusion, Hammerhead, Black Tarantula, Hydro-Man, Rhino, Shocker, Looter, Taskmaster, Cardiac, Smythe and his Spider-Slayers, Carrion, many great underused characters to pull from.

Black Tarantula isn't a villain anymore by the way, he's mostly in limbo now, but most of his appearances are from Daredevil and he's a good guy there.

While I think Black Tarantula's personality from ASM is completely superior compared to Daredevil's Black Tarantula (Who's just some generic aggressive-latino-drug-dealer, who then becomes heroic), I don't think bringing that back without an explanation would be good lol.

As none of us should have.

To be fair, Norman back to his usual personality when Sin Eater's powers cause brainwashing... It's really bizarre he's back, and there better be an explanation lol.

For the record, Cardiac did just show up in Iron Man's second issue by Christopher Cantwell

Wait, Slott isn't writing Iron Man anymore?

I think it’s okay to have a complete amoral sociopath like Norman, because he will do things and go places that other bad guys won’t. Not even Doc Ock. He will push Peter to the brink of madness. Many of Peter’s best stories have involved Norman... not just death of Gwen Stacy and ASM#39-40, but post-return like Spider-Man#75, ‘Death in the Family’, and the ‘Marvel Knights: Spider-Man’ storyline to name just a few. But Norman is like rich chocolate. He’s good in small doses and the less you have the more special it is. He’s been over exposed by both Slott and then Spencer in recent years. He needs to cool off for about 4 or 5 years imo.

Spencer isn't even using him that much, the most focus he had was in AC's tie-in, where he was acting like Cletus, and ASM#49/850, where he's back to normal, after that he's just around regreting doing ****, and may be planning to do evil ****.

I guess I shouldn't have been surprised after that future cover with him and Kingpin was released but this just comes out of nowhere and honestly to me feels forced.

To be fair, that cover happens after Last Remains, at least I assumed it's like because it's after Last Remains was dealt with and everyone who was depowered by Sin Eater went back to normal.

[Huntsman Spider]

The Other isn't even here, so I dunno what you're talking about, and Cindy is in this because the other Spider-People are here, excluding her specifically would be odd, specially since she's friends with Peter, it's bizarre enough that neither Kaine or Ben are around, and they're closer to Peter than any of those other Spiders, except maybe Miles.



Snake says there "War has changed" though lol.

I guess that one could be applied to Harry, 'cause at least his methods have changed .



"Should get to a point sooner" is this arc's main problem in a nutshell.



Damn, that's been a while huh lol.



Black Tarantula isn't a villain anymore by the way, he's mostly in limbo now, but most of his appearances are from Daredevil and he's a good guy there.

While I think Black Tarantula's personality from ASM is completely superior compared to Daredevil's Black Tarantula (Who's just some generic aggressive-latino-drug-dealer, who then becomes heroic), I don't think bringing that back without an explanation would be good lol.



To be fair, Norman back to his usual personality when Sin Eater's powers cause brainwashing... It's really bizarre he's back, and there better be an explanation lol.



Wait, Slott isn't writing Iron Man anymore?



Spencer isn't even using him that much, the most focus he had was in AC's tie-in, where he was acting like Cletus, and ASM#49/850, where he's back to normal, after that he's just around regreting doing ****, and may be planning to do evil ****.



To be fair, that cover happens after Last Remains, at least I assumed it's like because it's after Last Remains was dealt with and everyone who was depowered by Sin Eater went back to normal.

Nope, he left after the Iron Man 2020 saga, and Christopher Cantwell started a new Iron Man series back in September.

[RD155]

I finally got to sit down and read the issue and then afterwards, I've been sitting here trying to figure out how to describe my thoughts.

First off this shows again why I am so sick of Norman Osborn in the main comics, it's always the same criminal mastermind BS he's got a plan and all that. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised after that future cover with him and Kingpin was released but this just comes out of nowhere and honestly to me feels forced. This was supposed to be a story about Peter and Harry and it just keeps getting muddled.

Then there's the pacing and the issue I've had with so many big stories over the last few years at Marvel is once again showing up. The story has been so stretched out and now they are just throwing everything in at the end because they've only got two issues left for this are to fill the trade and I'm just tired of it. What's really sad is that up to this point I was enjoying the story even with how stretched the "main" issues were I found myself enjoying it when reading them together with the "LR" issues.

I don't want to be negative, I really don't and I'm still hoping that next week's issue will be good but after finishing this issue I'm no longer as excited as I was two weeks ago for the finale of this story.

Nah it’s not just you being negative. I’m in the same boat. Was extremely excited for this story and issue by issue, my excitement has just gone down bit by bit. Lol

I hear all the praise this story is getting and I feel like I’m on a different planet or something cause I just don’t see it. To each his own I guess.

[Mr. Davis]

I think it’s okay to have a complete amoral sociopath like Norman, because he will do things and go places that other bad guys won’t. Not even Doc Ock. He will push Peter to the brink of madness. Many of Peter’s best stories have involved Norman... not just death of Gwen Stacy and ASM#39-40, but post-return like Spider-Man#75, ‘Death in the Family’, and the ‘Marvel Knights: Spider-Man’ storyline to name just a few. But Norman is like rich chocolate. He’s good in small doses and the less you have the more special it is. He’s been over exposed by both Slott and then Spencer in recent years. He needs to cool off for about 4 or 5 years imo.

I agree with this sentiment. I think Norman has been involved in a lot of really solid stories since his return, and I couldn’t be happier that he still knows Peter is Spidey. I understand the perspective that many here are mentioning - that he needs to take a break for a few years - but I see him as a mainstay. Even though The Gathering of Five and The Final Chapter are typically looked down upon as trashy stories, I loved that era because he was so involved in the overall story. And yes, Peter has a lot of really great villains that deserve a larger spotlight, but I think there’s just something so exciting to me about seeing Norman scheme and screw with Peter’s life. Nobody else is ever really written like he is. Of course, mileage varies amongst us. But when he’s written well, I honestly can’t get enough of Norman.

[Flash Fan #1]

I've been enjoying Last Remains and even the LR issues, but I agree with a few here who feel like the story's just dragging by this point. Spencer needs to really, really knock it out the park with #55 if he's to avoid anymore criticism.

I wonder if Spencer will split Harry and Kindred into separate people. Anyone think that'll happen?

[HypnoHustler]

I've been enjoying Last Remains and even the LR issues, but I agree with a few here who feel like the story's just dragging by this point. Spencer needs to really, really knock it out the park with #55 if he's to avoid anymore criticism.

I wonder if Spencer will split Harry and Kindred into separate people. Anyone think that'll happen?

Hmmn... I don’t know. It’d seem like a bit of a cop-out. I don’t think there’s any redeeming Harry or pretending this didn’t happen at this point. Honestly, I hope he stays Kindred or is killed off again, as I never thought it was a good idea to bring him back after OMD (and tbh, he hasn’t done much of note since except change his last name and have a second kid we never see or hear from).

[Flash Fan #1]

Hmmn... I don’t know. It’d seem like a bit of a cop-out. I don’t think there’s any redeeming Harry or pretending this didn’t happen at this point. Honestly, I hope he stays Kindred or is killed off again, as I never thought it was a good idea to bring him back after OMD (and tbh, he hasn’t done much of note since except change his last name and have a second kid we never see or hear from).

That's a good point.

[Ursalink]

I really liked this issue. The art is excellent, and the dialogue is on-point.

This bit here is an all-time moment for the character who says it, and also the character it's about, in that it accurately defines Spider-Man and his world:

Attachment 103431


Also the Nick Lowe editor's note at the end is hilarious and self-aware if you know your Spider-Man history and the fuss about KLH.

I couldn't have said it better!

Now, about the "twist" of the last panel, are you really surprised? I mean, I said it from the very beginning: Sin-Eater's cleaning of sins was not going to work. Why?, well, because as far as I see, Norma Osborn is too rotten to ever be "cleaned". And who would know it? I was right!

Now, Kingpin's presence was a surprise, but I should have known, considering this whole thing seems to be turning around "One More Day". I'm afraid about what it will happen at the end, because even if Kindred is stopped, I believe Kingpin will cause a major disaster for Peter.

By the way, if you ask me, I would say they are preparing the field for OMD being undone in Amazing Spider-Man #900 and restore the marriage.

[NC_Yankee]

I couldn't have said it better!

Now, about the "twist" of the last panel, are you really surprised? I mean, I said it from the very beginning: Sin-Eater's cleaning of sins was not going to work. Why?, well, because as far as I see, Norma Osborn is too rotten to ever be "cleaned". And who would know it? I was right!

Now, Kingpin's presence was a surprise, but I should have known, considering this whole thing seems to be turning around "One More Day". I'm afraid about what it will happen at the end, because even if Kindred is stopped, I believe Kingpin will cause a major disaster for Peter.

By the way, if you ask me, I would say they are preparing the field for OMD being undone in Amazing Spider-Man #900 and restore the marriage.

That is wishful thinking. I will not be reading when it comes out but Amazing 1000 can be published and OMD will remain. Why? Marvel loves OMD just like they love other suck ass stories like Clone Saga. The only story that has been buried that was bad was Chapter One ( I liked Reign more then most but that has been buried as well). I would not be shocked if the Stacy Twins and Sins Past (which I have never heard defended unlike even OMD/BND), rear its ugly head again.

[Ursalink]

That is wishful thinking. I will not be reading when it comes out but Amazing 1000 can be published and OMD will remain. Why? Marvel loves OMD just like they love other suck ass stories like Clone Saga. The only story that has been buried that was bad was Chapter One ( I liked Reign more then most but that has been buried as well). I would not be shocked if the Stacy Twins and Sins Past (which I have never heard defended unlike even OMD/BND), rear its ugly head again.

I wouldn't be so sure. DC and Marvel have been copying at each other for a long time, and they keep doing it currently: Marvel has Knull, DC has the Batman Who Laughs. DC restored Superman and Lois Lane's marriage, and they give them a son; so now Marvel could restore Spider-Man and MJ's marriage, and give them officially a daughter.

[NC_Yankee]

I wouldn't be so sure. DC and Marvel have been copying at each other for a long time, and they keep doing it currently: Marvel has Knull, DC has the Batman Who Laughs. DC restored Superman and Lois Lane's marriage, and they give them a son; so now Marvel could restore Spider-Man and MJ's marriage, and give them officially a daughter.

Could is the key word. They know damn well based on the newspaper strip and RYV that a lot of people want it, but they still have not. They know the day is coming when those who remember the marriage will be in the minority, so not restoring it becomes a lot easier. What I have not understood about Marvel is with the exception of RYV, the need to make Peter suffer and suffer ( it’s like a soap opera). Think about it OMD, Peter looking pathetic at the hands of Harry, Slott’s snarky comments ( like Charlie Brown), the man child under Slott, dying in Life Story and Abrams, dying in Ultimate and so on. I fully expect this to continue. I am really getting sick of it.

[Vortex85]

Could is the key word. They know damn well based on the newspaper strip and RYV that a lot of people want it, but they still have not. They know the day is coming when those who remember the marriage will be in the minority, so not restoring it becomes a lot easier.

Actually, this will never be true thanks to the communication / availability / proliferation of content on the internet. Tons of relatively new Spider-Man readers are immediately shown OMD, the marriage, etc through social media / youtube videos / etc.