New Avengers 32 *spoilers*

[JKtheMac]

I am not talking about Ereshkigal but about Kevin Conner.

We've seen on-panel that not every Star Brand is equal in power.

Nobody should be talking about Ereshkigal, that character is nothing to do with the source that Hickman is referring to. None of my quotes are about her either. They are all about the 80s Star Brand that Hickman has used as a source for this story.

We have seen in entire runs that the Star Brand contains as much power as the writer needs. The whole concept was a development of the wish fulfilment Captain Marvel of the Golden Age. The 80s was continually re-evalutaing the whole idea of Captain Marvel. In Star Brand he was turned into a character that was literally based on fulfilling wishes. Quasar is another example of this Captain Marvel re-evaluation and notably Star Brand and Nightmask turn up and perhaps without coincidence the cosmology was throughly examined.

[JKtheMac]

I'm not sure how any of that is supposed to be a rebuttal to my position that it is PIS.

The problem is you are basing all of your assumptions on the wrong sources and tying yourself in knots. That is my rebuttal in a nutshell. I dont need to take it apart piece by piece because you are the one making the assertion not me. I only need to point out the flaw, and it is a big one.

[JKtheMac]

I'm sure Star Brand holders can kill anything if they tried. It was the most powerful object during the early 90s Quasar run, and is considered a big deal.

The Reed with one could have used a weaker version of it, or didn't really used it it's full power.

Exactly, plus reed is using a weird MU version, the version we have now is the New Universal version that is theoretically infinite in power. We can tell he is using this version because:

1: Hickman says so in interviews.
2: The Avengers Now! Handbook describes the power in the same way.
3: It was brought into the world by a White Event just like the whole premise of the New Universal comics.
4: The creation of the character thematically mirrors the destuction of Pittsburgh in the New Universal comics.
5: He is pretty much wearing the old costume

[JKtheMac]

And to address StarBrand being at the planetary scale in Avengers #34.2 Sam Humphries decided to make sure we all understood the potential of Starbrand for those not familliar:

Star brand.jpg

First we have him literally pecieving the whole of the universe, then we have him in conversation with a cosmic force born from a star.

[TresDias]

Nobody should be talking about Ereshkigal, that character is nothing to do with the source that Hickman is referring to. None of my quotes are about her either. They are all about the 80s Star Brand that Hickman has used as a source for this story.

Well, she got the power that formerly belonged to the 80s Starbrand -- so, really, if you're talking about the 80s Starbrand, you have to include her. Which isn't a bad thing since she's the best example of what a carrier of the power can do when they know what they're doing.

[vitruvian]

Well, she got the power that formerly belonged to the 80s Starbrand -- so, really, if you're talking about the 80s Starbrand, you have to include her.

And if the 80s Starbrand, the Newuniversal Starbrand, and this current Starbrand who just blew up are supposed to derive their powers from the same source ultimately, I see no reason why you would assume the current Starbrand had any less power available to him than the 80s Starbrand, even if he never figured out how to use the bulk of its potential until he was dying.

Although that certainly raises questions about why the Builders were never able to grant the same power to anybody who'd actually fight for them before they lost the Superflow system they'd built to do so completely. Or if they had the understanding and ability to create such a system, why they couldn't figure out another means of accessing power at that level again.

It would be funny if the Starbrand were basically just another form of Cosmic Cube, a means of accessing the Beyonders' power, and the Beyonders had just decided to stop allowing any more such conduits being made at a certain point.

[JKtheMac]

It would be funny if the Starbrand were basically just another form of Cosmic Cube, a means of accessing the Beyonders' power, and the Beyonders had just decided to stop allowing any more such conduits being made at a certain point.

Hickman may be drawing analogies between them. Its a little like the visual analogy in Crisis on Infinite Earths where the wite page began to take over. In that they even went so far as deconstuct the art.

I think its about time I actually read Warren Ellis' New Universal (2006), the visual similarity is striking. The art in the Avengers work fully refelcts Salvador Larroca's art in that book so that is the goto reference I would guess. The Superflow is pretty much the same in that book. Marvel know how to get us reading their back catalogue.

[TresDias]

I've been wondering that lately myself -- whether the power of the White Event (and, consequently, the Starbrands) comes from opening a hole to the Beyond Realm. The Starbrand's power is basically wish fulfillment like a Cosmic Cube.

[DrTraveler]

It's not simply that he was taken out by the Celestials but also that he was visibly not powerful enough to defeat them, contrary to Beyonders.

If that's your sticking point, it's also pretty easy to handwave. Could be as easy as the Reed Richards Starbrand just sucked. Folks have made the point that he simply may not have been creative enough to correctly use the Starbrand. He could have been trying to conserve power so that he could take on all four and cover his comrade's retreat, it could be he was simply overwhelmed. And yes, all those factors make a difference. In a real honest to goodness battle, people fight differently depending on their objective. If the Reed Starbrand was focused on covering the escape, he wouldn't have lashed out at full power, he'd have fought defensively trying to draw their fire to himself. Considering he was up against 4 Mad Celestials, that plan would have ensured he died.

Kevin was dying, focused, and facing one opponent. That means he has no incentive to hold back anything. No need to maintain any reserves for survival or for a future fight. That's a totally different ballgame. In addition, you seem to ignore that we do not know if he actually killed the Beyonder. He simply took out his physical form.

It is also worth noting, as others have, that Hickman clearly has established the Ivory Kings can be beat. The Reeds "crushed" one using Sol's Anvil. Sol's Anvil is an impressive weapon but I'd be fairly confident that Kevin could have matched that, especially given what we saw him do in Infinity.

[ShaokhaN]

Sure hasn't stopped you from assuming that every Starbrand must be equally shitty at fighting Abstracts. Even though Ereshkigal -- the one you acknowledge as being powerful enough to do that -- displayed profoundly greater competence as a Starbrand than others who had previously been branded with exactly the same version of the power source she received.

Except I did not assume that "every Star Brand must be equally shitty at fighting Abstracts". My point was the exact opposite, namely that you can't exactly assume that every Star Brand can challenge the multiversal Living Tribunal. If you're going to reply to every single one of my post even if they're not responses to yours, at least take the time to read them properly.

Maybe you should respond to what people trying to discuss with you in good faith actually say to you instead of disrespecting them with "witty" intellectual dishonesty that ignores their observations that prove you wrong.

While doing that, you may want to reacquaint yourself with the plot you're trying to complain about since that lone Beyonder didn't kill the Living Tribunal all by himself.

If JK has more self-respect than I do, he'll tell you where you can go and what you can do when you get there rather than continue disrespecting himself by wasting his time engaging with someone who thinks that kind of crap passes for debate. You have shamed yourself, and I feel terribly sorry for you right now.

First, I have not been "proven wrong" by any observations, and certainly not the one I was addressing in the passage you quoted.

Second, I did not write that that lone Beyonder killed the Living Tribunal all by himself. Again, learn to read my posts.

Third, no need to feel terribly sorry for me, I'm not the one with a compulsion to resort to personal attacks when I disagree with someone online.

Fourth, and to go back to what was actually discussed in the passage you quoted, I responded with humor to JKtheMac's citation of a handbook describing Kevin Conner's Star Brand power as "immeasurable" because any character at herald-level or beyond possesses "immeasurable" power. That's a completely vague description that does not inform us in the slightest. Odin has immeasurable power, but he's still not powerful enough to take on the entirety of a universe's Celestial Host.

It's almost as though that's the whole schtick! Like the power's effectiveness varies from user to user depending on their affinity with it!

If only there were official descriptions around that could confirm that for us!

If only! ::sob::

That was you, by the way.

And this is me giving you a taste of your own medicine.

The only taste you're giving me is that of you being somehow incapable of addressing the points I make in the posts you reply to. In fact, you apparently agree with the statement you just quoted, so thanks for your support.

And I'm disagreeing with you, as agreed upon. =P

I keep replying to you because you insist on being verifiably wrong about something easily verifiable, and, frankly, I don't want the thread for tomorrow's issue to get derailed with this crap in case you're still pissed off about this erroneous gripe you invented.

I'm "derailing" and posting "crap"? This started with me posting my personal opinion on the issue, exactly what the thread is supposed to be here for. I am also the one who tried to end this exchange by agreeing to disagree when I saw it was not going anywhere. You are the one who keeps replying to me, because apparently I'm not allowed to not see things exactly as you do (and no, I certainly have not been "verifiably wrong" about anything, you're just posting assumptions and interpretations that I do not share). This conversation would be over if you could control your urges to keep responding to me, and just recognize we simply see things differently. Apparently that's too much to ask.

Who is ignoring all the most pertinent parts of those paragraphs to try zinging someone on an adjunct matter that doesn't address the primary point being made? Oh, it's you! Doing that thing. Again. Like you did to JK. That other time it wasn't witty.

I don't appreciate that. It's intellectual dishonesty, and you're better than that.

If you're going to keep harping on the fact that this Reed (i.e. a Starbrand) was defeated by a Celestial, I'm going to say, "No kidding. You're proving my point." You think you're highlighting some great inconsistency when all you're highlighting is the "Powers" section in the character profile for every Starbrand ever.

Not all of them display the same power level despite having the same powers. That's sort of the whole premise of the Starbrand role. If you put one of David Gilmour's guitars in my hands, I'm not going to be able to play "Another Brick In the Wall" no matter how much you insist that it's PIS if I don't.

There wasn't the slightest intellectual dishonesty in my answer to you. Pointing out that you're making assumptions when you are is not intellectual dishonesty, it's being factual. You simply do not know if alternate Reed Richards could or coult not use the Star Brand's power effectively. That's you assuming that he could not.

Meanwhile, my position is devoid of assumptions, and it is simply that we have seen different Star Brands exhibiting different levels of power. That is a factual assertion. If you agree with it, then perhaps you should have paid more attention to what I've been arguing instead of addressing imaginary positions that I haven't been defending.

A magical axe that was in play the first time too. So, yeah, they just made better use of the available resources the second time around rather than attaining Special Snowflake Status.

Except the magical axe was not available to them at the right time the first time, since Eimin had taken back the axe from Thor before he was able to strike down Exitar.

Let me repeat the remark I made the previous time and that you ignored, though: "In any case, the way you're using this example is irrelevant to the position I'm defending (which is not that things can only go one way in the MU, which we know isn't the case)". Apparently you really want to argue against positions I'm not holding.

Well, according to you, every Starbrand should lose to a Celestial despite even the Living Tribunal wanting to avoid fighting one. Never mind that we've seen vast differences in power display from different people branded with the same Starbrand (the one from the New Universe).

No, it is certainly not my position that "every Starbrand should lose to a Celestial despite even the Living Tribunal wanting to avoid fighting one". I've never defended this.

That description can be perfectly consistent with and an appropriate description of the best we can expect from Kevin Conner on an average day. That does not impose an upper limit on the best he is capable of, as the Starbrand itself goes way beyond that. Kevin may not be particularly adept at tapping into it, but he has access to far more power.

And if he's not going to tap into something more in his dying moments while pissed off and watching his friends about to be killed -- if he's just going to stand there and not try to do something more with that amazing power of his that even his final words speak of never fully understanding -- then that would be some PIS.

I love how you're apparently utterly incapable of paying attention to what I write in a few simple sentences such as the ones you replied to with this. What I wrote:

"I did not say that the description imposed an upper limit on what he is capable of"

What you replied:

"That [description] does not impose an upper limit on the best he is capable of"

No ****? It's almost like I explicitly said I wasn't arguing anything different in the first sentence you decided to quote! Here's the rest of my point again: "The description, however, does point towards a certain level of power. You don't say of a weight-lifter "he's capable of lifting 500 grams" if he can lift way more than that. He is capable of lifting 500 grams, but nobody would present his strength like that since it would obviously be completely misleading. Star Brand was defined from the start as a planet destroyer (and this was consistent with his feats in the books), which is impressive in its own right but is still way below what we've seen from the Beyonders."

The "this" in my sentence was in reference to the Starbrand power being demonstrated to exceed the Abstracts, just like a Beyonder.

I know it was. I discussed the Ereshkigal example myself. I was referring to the specific case of what happened in NA #32, and why I consider it PIS. If you disagree, that's fine.

*post was too long, it continues in the next reply*

[ShaokhaN]

You do recall that it took more than one Beyonder to do that, right? We were presented with what could very well have been all the Beyonders taking down each universe's Celestials, then each universe's Abstracts, and then finally converging on the Living Tribunal himself in a really long battle that raged across the whole of the multiverse.

Yes, the Beyonders are powerful, but right now you're making a complaint comparable to crying PIS over, say, Thanos being able to beat Rogue or Thor even though they -- along with many others -- defeated Exitar. They didn't do it alone, and it's safe to say that even Ereshkigal wouldn't have been able to defeat the entire Beyonder race, the same as it's safe to say the entire force who took on Exitar would beat Thanos without it being PIS.

All you've managed to do here is point out that a power defined as "potentially limitless but effectiveness varies from user to user" varies from user to user in its effectiveness. Just the way the definition promised.

Sorry if I'm not patting you on the back and labeling you as London's next great detective.

I do remember yes, and I'm not sure why you'd think I don't - unless that was another great attempt at taking a personal shot at me.

No, my complaint is not comparable to what you just described. I addressed A > B > C > A logic and the specific plot device to kill Exitar in previous posts.

Ah, another attempt at wit. I'm not sure the guy who apparently can't read simple sentences and doesn't know what he's replying to should be giving out detective points. Regardless, we can end this discussion right here if you can simply agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[davew128]

I've been wondering that lately myself -- whether the power of the White Event (and, consequently, the Starbrands) comes from opening a hole to the Beyond Realm. The Starbrand's power is basically wish fulfillment like a Cosmic Cube.

Well here's my theory: You're right. If you go back to the end of Secret Wars II #9, you see all of the Beyonder's power being sent into an empty realm. The visual effect looked suspiciously like the effect of a White Event which appeared shortly afterwards when New Universe was started. I always believed at the time they were related even if the writers and editors said no. Now, nearly 30 years later, maybe the thinking has changed and it was related.

[ShaokhaN]

Nobody should be talking about Ereshkigal, that character is nothing to do with the source that Hickman is referring to. None of my quotes are about her either. They are all about the 80s Star Brand that Hickman has used as a source for this story.

We have seen in entire runs that the Star Brand contains as much power as the writer needs. The whole concept was a development of the wish fulfilment Captain Marvel of the Golden Age. The 80s was continually re-evalutaing the whole idea of Captain Marvel. In Star Brand he was turned into a character that was literally based on fulfilling wishes. Quasar is another example of this Captain Marvel re-evaluation and notably Star Brand and Nightmask turn up and perhaps without coincidence the cosmology was throughly examined.

That he used the 80s Star Brand as source doesn't change the fact that Kevin Conner is a different character, which doesn't necessarily have to exhibit the same power level as that Star Brand. Like I said, we've seen several different Star Brands which did not all exhibit the same power levels.

The problem is you are basing all of your assumptions on the wrong sources and tying yourself in knots. That is my rebuttal in a nutshell. I dont need to take it apart piece by piece because you are the one making the assertion not me. I only need to point out the flaw, and it is a big one.

I presented you with facts, not assumptions, and all of those facts come from Hickman canon.

[TresDias]

Ah, another attempt at wit. I'm not sure the guy who apparently can't read simple sentences and doesn't know what he's replying to should be giving out detective points.

Dude, you refuse to even keep your argument straight. You keep saying "There's no way Kevin Conner could kill a being that took out the Living Tribunal. This is so PIS that I can't even" and then the whole of your last response was --

"I never said any of that! I never refuted the potential of the Starbrand! I didn't claim that a Starbrand couldn't take out such an entity! ... It's still totally PIS and defies reason and all the laws of God and man, though. ::snicker::"

Really, man? Are you trying to troll?

Regardless, we can end this discussion right here if you can simply agree to disagree and leave it at that.

You could have ended it at any time by picking a consistent position and having the good grace to acknowledge when the position had been defeated. Instead of constantly reaffirming a position that you're opposing while inexplicably pretending that you aren't opposing it.

[ShaokhaN]

If that's your sticking point, it's also pretty easy to handwave. Could be as easy as the Reed Richards Starbrand just sucked. Folks have made the point that he simply may not have been creative enough to correctly use the Starbrand. He could have been trying to conserve power so that he could take on all four and cover his comrade's retreat, it could be he was simply overwhelmed. And yes, all those factors make a difference. In a real honest to goodness battle, people fight differently depending on their objective. If the Reed Starbrand was focused on covering the escape, he wouldn't have lashed out at full power, he'd have fought defensively trying to draw their fire to himself. Considering he was up against 4 Mad Celestials, that plan would have ensured he died.

Kevin was dying, focused, and facing one opponent. That means he has no incentive to hold back anything. No need to maintain any reserves for survival or for a future fight. That's a totally different ballgame. In addition, you seem to ignore that we do not know if he actually killed the Beyonder. He simply took out his physical form.

It is also worth noting, as others have, that Hickman clearly has established the Ivory Kings can be beat. The Reeds "crushed" one using Sol's Anvil. Sol's Anvil is an impressive weapon but I'd be fairly confident that Kevin could have matched that, especially given what we saw him do in Infinity.

All I was pointing out with that is that we've seen different Star Brands exhibit different levels of power, and therefore that we can't assume every Star Brand is capable of challenging the multiversal Living Tribunal. What you wrote with regards to the alt. RR SB are suppositions.