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  1. #1111
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    I know that's the actual publication history of things. My point is that Johns showed the JSA roster sans Superman in conjunction with the 1956 Superman rather than the 1986 Superman. And I think he did that deliberately, not just because it would be harder to explain the team's absence during the Silver Age version of the Metaverse but also because part of his premise is that Jon removing the JSA was an act that knocked an essential foundation out from under the Metaverse. You don't get that if there's an iteration in the revision history where there was no JSA but the rest of the Metaverse carried on without any problem.

    So I think this is a retcon of the meta-history. It's not without precedent: basically, the whole “Perpetua and her three sons” storyline in Justice League is a massive retcon of the very beginning of the meta-history.
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  2. #1112
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Its absolutely no surprise that Johns puts Superman above Manhattan in terms of power, and this particular universe above all other universes. Or that, of all the choices to make, Johns chooses a Green Lantern to be above all of it in terms of importance.

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  3. #1113
    Mighty Member ducklord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    I know that's the actual publication history of things. My point is that Johns showed the JSA roster sans Superman in conjunction with the 1956 Superman rather than the 1986 Superman. And I think he did that deliberately, not just because it would be harder to explain the team's absence during the Silver Age version of the Metaverse but also because part of his premise is that Jon removing the JSA was an act that knocked an essential foundation out from under the Metaverse. You don't get that if there's an iteration in the revision history where there was no JSA but the rest of the Metaverse carried on without any problem.

    So I think this is a retcon of the meta-history. It's not without precedent: basically, the whole “Perpetua and her three sons” storyline in Justice League is a massive retcon of the very beginning of the meta-history.
    Apologies if I came across as a fanboysplaining there - in truth, I was working it out in my head as I typed

    I'm not sure Johns is intentionally stealth-retconning something here. Given Dr. M's position as "outside observer of all previous DC retcons," both with regards to the timeline and the Metaverse's multiverse, it'd be weird to sneak one under his nose that he didn't take note of. It's more likely, in my opinion, that it's just being glossed over for the sake of the narrative.

  4. #1114
    Maintaining Status Q _Feely_'s Avatar
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    Grant Morrison is Dr Manhattan is quite the back-handed compliment.

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  5. #1115
    Uncanny Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    I know that's the actual publication history of things. My point is that Johns showed the JSA roster sans Superman in conjunction with the 1956 Superman rather than the 1986 Superman. And I think he did that deliberately, not just because it would be harder to explain the team's absence during the Silver Age version of the Metaverse . . .
    Can't the old Paul Levitz explanation of why the JSA disappeared during most of the 1950s (they wouldn't agree to unmask during the HUAC hearings, so they essentially "retired" for a while) be a sufficient explanation?

  6. #1116
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Can't the old Paul Levitz explanation of why the JSA disappeared during most of the 1950s (they wouldn't agree to unmask during the HUAC hearings, so they essentially "retired" for a while) be a sufficient explanation?
    The problem being that during that period, it seemed that people forgot or never knew the JSA ever even existed. They can go underground, but that doesn't mean that people would forget they existed.

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  7. #1117
    Uncanny Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    The problem being that during that period, it seemed that people forgot or never knew the JSA ever even existed. They can go underground, but that doesn't mean that people would forget they existed.
    Heck, Dr. Fate, Thunderbolt, or even some magic-using villain could cause the world to forget them for a while . . .

  8. #1118
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Can't the old Paul Levitz explanation of why the JSA disappeared during most of the 1950s (they wouldn't agree to unmask during the HUAC hearings, so they essentially "retired" for a while) be a sufficient explanation?
    Putting it another way, we're talking about meta-history here: the issue isn't that there wasn't a JSA on the Primary Earth from 1951 to 1986; it's that in the iteration of the DCU that was being published from 1956 until 1986, there had never been a JSA on the Primary Earth at all. And that's what Johns may have just retconned.
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  9. #1119
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    I'm not reading 'Clock' but will when collected. Find this thread pretty interesting. I'm very old time fan and mostly about 30 years behind (didn't read much after the first Crisis).

    So I was curious or partially hopeful to wonder what would happen with the true most convoluted character's timeline - - Batman. There are so many specific things that could have been addressed and I really believe that the now you see her now you don't 'tale' of the original Bat-girl, Betty, umm Bette Kane, would have been a humdinger to address.

    So I'm disappointed because earlier on I thought "every thing" with continuity problems would be addressed, but I don't think that has. A lot of potential for those missing 10 years, I would think.

  10. #1120
    Incredible Member astro@work's Avatar
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    Loved this issue and the walk through the iterations of Superman and JSA history.

    I do still find the delays odd though. I was expecting some revelation regarding HIC or other "state of the current DCU" that couldn't be revealed until now.
    But there really wasn't one, as the issue was backward looking. Same with the delayed HIC...no obvious reason why one or the other had to wait to be published.

    Still, I enjoyed the Carver Coleman story getting further explanation and being tied into Dr. Manhattan. Anybody catch the one panel appearance of Johnny Thunder on the set? (That was Johnny, right?...blonde, green suit, accused of bumbling something or other). Seeing the original JSA meeting also did my heart good. My God it's been so long since we've seen the real JSA in a bonafide appearance. I'm still hoping history is set right in the next two issues, so the JSA is back in continuity.

  11. #1121
    Mighty Member Jody Garland's Avatar
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    Yeah, I'm pretty sure that was Johnny. And in other, more obscure continuity nods, Verner Brothers- the company who made the Nathanial Dusk movies- is originally from the Blue Devil comics from the 80s.

  12. #1122
    Astonishing Member Clark_Kent's Avatar
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    I'm still digesting this issue, but damn...just when I thought Johns had gone past his prime, here comes Doomsday Clock. Every issue has been riveting, but this one may be the best yet.

    One thing I was curious about though that I haven't seen anyone else mention...was Manhattan responsible for splitting Superman & Lois into two parts? We know that Pre-Flashpoint Lois & Clark return to Earth from Convergence just as the Justice League forms to defeat Darkseid. Clark decides to leave this world to its Superman, and operates in hiding. Flash forward a decade or so, and N52 Superman (and Lois) dies and Pre-Flashpoint Superman takes over. Through Mr. Mxy shenanigans, both halves of Lois & Clark merge together in Superman Reborn, and it re-writes some DCU history as we saw...but Dr. Manhattan talks about manipulating events to bring about a Superman he understands (N52), and we see him in the armored collared suit, but Manhattan makes no mention of "his" Superman dying, merging, or otherwise becoming the more-attached-to-mankind Superman we have now.

    I know Manhattan is immune to the world changing around him from various events, so the timeline re-write of Superman Reborn had no bearing on Manhattan or his memory of N52 Superman...but he doesn't seem to mention how the current guy isn't the same one (again, unless I missed something). I thought we'd see the split happen, but since we didn't I now wonder if they're just going to ignore it.
    "Darkseid...always hated music..."

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  13. #1123
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    No, Manhattan wasn't responsible for splitting Superman into two. Telos was. (See Convergence.)
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  14. #1124
    Astonishing Member Clark_Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    No, Manhattan wasn't responsible for splitting Superman into two. Telos was. (See Convergence.)
    Are you sure about that? In Superman Reborn, Mxy makes many mentions of HIM & how they don't want HIM to notice what's going on, and how all that has happened is because of HIM...at the end, Mr. Oz mentions "HIM" and the last panel shows Mars. I think they were pretty clear that the split was Manhattan's doing, and that "love conquered all" to prevail.

    Does it specifically say in Convergence that Telos split Lois & Clark into 2 beings? It's been a while since I read it.
    Last edited by Clark_Kent; 05-30-2019 at 05:19 PM.
    "Darkseid...always hated music..."

    Every post I make, it should be assumed by the reader that the following statement is attached: "It's all subjective. What works for me doesn't necessarily work for you, and vice versa, and that's ok. You may have a different opinion on it, but this is mine. That's the wonderful thing about being a comics fan, it's all subjective."

  15. #1125
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Telos was responsible for them splitting, by pulling the pre-Flashpoint Gotham City (with Lois and Clark in it) it is time and then returning it without them, as they went to the First Crisis and from there to the New 52 reality.

    Mxyztplk's comments during Superman Reborn can be explained as Jon not wanting to see the two Supermen merge and undo what he did (part of the Metaverse fighting back against him). He can be said to be responsible for the situation as it existed then in that he was responsible for the “branch” of Superman who wasn't split out by Convergence becoming the post-Flashpoint Superman.

    Unless and until Doomsday Clock says otherwise, that's the answer that requires the least changes from the published material, and so that's the story I'm sticking with.
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