Daken or Raze

[TheCape]

IIRC, his his major scene is instigating the death of his girlfriend via suicide/murder, by insinuating a sexual relationship with a man he murdered. It was needlessly sadistic and honestly, kinda dumb.

So yeah, first appearance was 'depraved bi-sexual' played to the hilt. Daniel Way's statements are just him covering his rear, especially given that his 'manipulation in Dark Wolverine was leaning in close, and making sexual insinuations.

Even if we look past the depraved bi sexual, his origin sucks. He hates his dad because of a mom he never met? As Fang in Wolverines pointed out, Daken is a 60 year old man who can't get over his mommy issues

Yeah, he did that, that sounds more like a sociopath to me, i never got the impression that he actually enjoyed sex, is just part of his predatory nature, a bastard twisting the knife before finishing you.

You won't get any argument for me in the fact that he is a crappy characther, i never liked him and his entire existence is a constant bane that reminds me that the worst Wolverine series ever written is still canon. But i'm willing to let him stay it someone change his origins (becuase **** Romulus and everything that has to do with him).

[Silver Fang]

Yeah, he did that, that sounds more like a sociopath to me, i never got the impression that he actually enjoyed sex, is just part of his predatory nature, a bastard twisting the knife before finishing you.

You won't get any argument for me in the fact that he is a crappy characther, i never liked him and his entire existence is a constant bane that reminds me that the worst Wolverine series ever written is still canon. But i'm willing to let him stay it someone change his origins (because **** Romulus and everything that has to do with him).

Please, lets never speak of that again. Luckily, nobody in the X-Office has brought that mess up after Loeb or Way. Now if only fans would forget about it. lol

[TheCape]

Please, lets never speak of that again. Luckily, nobody in the X-Office has brought that mess up after Loeb or Way. Now if only fans would forget about it. lol

I can't, Daken's existence doesn't let me, his presence is like a constant reminder for me. My first choice is erasing him; but i know that he has fans, i'm not that much of a dick to take him away, so i can settle for changing his origin.

[Rosebunse]

Please, lets never speak of that again. Luckily, nobody in the X-Office has brought that mess up after Loeb or Way. Now if only fans would forget about it. lol

You can't totally forget it, we just don't talk about it.

It's like Carol's rape baby, don't even less talked about.

[Silver Fang]

You can't totally forget it, we just don't talk about it.

It's like Carol's rape baby, don't even less talked about.

I mean forget it as in not take it seriously. If discussions on Creed come up, you'll have people using stuff from Loeb's run for evidence, and Loeb was shown to be a hack who didn't understand the characters he was writing. Thus, better off ignored in serious discussion. lol Same with Gillen really who couldn't even keep his own stories straight.

Sadly for any character, there's always some writers who didn't know the first thing about them, and got to just slap down anything with editors approving their mess. Then we have this mess known as X-Men now, whom even Hickman has clowned on its lack of proper continuity. I also love his trolling of Jason Aaron. lol

[Rosebunse]

I mean forget it as in not take it seriously. If discussions on Creed come up, you'll have people using stuff from Loeb's run for evidence, and Loeb was shown to be a hack who didn't understand the characters he was writing. Thus, better off ignored in serious discussion. lol Same with Gillen really who couldn't even keep his own stories straight.

Sadly for any character, there's always some writers who didn't know the first thing about them, and got to just slap down anything with editors approving their mess. Then we have this mess known as X-Men now, whom even Hickman has clowned on its lack of proper continuity. I also love his trolling of Jason Aaron. lol

Everything is canon and everything must be considered.

[Silver Fang]

Everything is canon and everything must be considered.

But when it's becomes contradictory, it's an issue. So which is true? They all can't be. lol

• Example when Creed's mother was first referenced, it was shown he loved her. Then even Tierri & Aaron, who depicted him as the most evil or evil made references & showings of him loving his mother. Now along comes Gillen, who wrote that he murdered his mother. So which is canon? lol Both can't be, because it's two totally different versions of what should be the same character.
• According to Loeb, Creed was a moron who had to go away to "become smarter" so he could beat Logan. Compared to Tierri Creed who outsmarted Mr. Sinister. Which is canon?
• Tierri Creed was shown to be an expert Hacker, and outsmarted the Weapon X program numerous times. Pak's Creed can not use a keyboard or hunt. Which is correct? Both can't be. Intelligence doesn't flip on & off like a switch. Either the character is intelligent or a moron. Can't be both.

So when it comes to characters, the fans have to know them because it's clear some of the writers don't, and are too lazy to do the proper research. So they'll write whatever they feel like. Or they don't care about accuracy because they have their own fanfic to write. So some writers know the characters & should be considered. Others don't know the first thing about them, and should be ignored. lol

[Confuzzled]

I don't care much for storylines by straight white male writers needlessly vilifying POC/LGBT characters. So Daken and Bishop are still strongly in the anti-hero zone for me.

[Sin Nick]

I know nothing about Raze, but I'm choosing him for the simple fact that I think Daken is one of the worst characters created in Marvel history. 70+ year old who behaves like a psychotic teen with daddy issues... pfft. Making Wolverine and X-23 get so emotionally attached to him did neither characters no favors either.

[Zelena]

I know nothing about Raze, but I'm choosing him for the simple fact that I think Daken is one of the worst characters created in Marvel history. 70+ year old who behaves like a psychotic teen with daddy issues... pfft. Making Wolverine and X-23 get so emotionally attached to him did neither characters no favors either.

Law of this universe: it can always be worse.

[Coatl]

I vote Daken, not only I found him more entertaining since he is a jerk who is aware that is a jerk and proud of it. But make look Wolverine less as a imbecile. For some reason I'm more willing to believe that he was happy with a woman and then had a child with her, than to believe that after seeing how easy for his sons is to be corrupted and even he has had to kill several (Daken included). And yet, he still is dumb enough not just to have sex with Mystic, but also unprotected sex that ended in the creation of Raze, really, thats dumb. Also I'm tired of wolverine (spider, and iron) rip offs. Laura and Daken are more than enough.

[TheCape]

I don't care much for storylines by straight white male writers needlessly vilifying POC/LGBT characters. So Daken and Bishop are still strongly in the anti-hero zone for me.

But... Daken was mean to be a bastard from day one, is not like Bishop who Carey and Brubaker turned into one during Messiah Complex. Him acting like a villain with little regard for human life is pretty much his default mode. Even in his solos he wasn't portrayed as an anti-hero, at best they just hinted that he has some humanity on him because he related to Laura's past.

[TheCape]

I vote Daken, not only I found him more entertaining since he is a jerk who is aware that is a jerk and proud of it. But make look Wolverine less as a imbecile. For some reason I'm more willing to believe that he was happy with a woman and then had a child with her, than to believe that after seeing how easy for his sons is to be corrupted and even he has had to kill several (Daken included). And yet, he still is dumb enough not just to have sex with Mystic, but also unprotected sex that ended in the creation of Raze, really, thats dumb. Also I'm tired of wolverine (spider, and iron) rip offs. Laura and Daken are more than enough.

Mystique raped him at some point when he wasn't in his right state of mind, so that's an easy way to explain him.

[Mr Abductor]

I don't care much for storylines by straight white male writers needlessly vilifying POC/LGBT characters. So Daken and Bishop are still strongly in the anti-hero zone for me.

Good lord, if Daken's an anti-hero for you what's a villain.

[Rosebunse]

But... Daken was mean to be a bastard from day one, is not like Bishop who Carey and Brubaker turned into one during Messiah Complex. Him acting like a villain with little regard for human life is pretty much his default mode. Even in his solos he wasn't portrayed as an anti-hero, at best they just hinted that he has some humanity on him because he related to Laura's past.

I think this is the thing about Daken, that his fans like him because he's so terrible. He's a bad, terrible person who you don't really mind seeing get beat up and ruined because he just sort of deserves it.