Wonder Woman #14 Discussion/Spoilers

[LoveStar]

Oh wow, humming and a positive attitude. Only Disney has ever done either of those.

How much you care about the connections and how you feel about their execution is subjective. That's quite a bit different than there being no obvious connections at all, which is what some have said but doesn't work when the echos are so obviously pointed out.

She can have a positive attitude but doe-eyed no. Have some type of fierceness. And I like when Diana loved ice cream not having a fit because too much sugar in soda. Also, she was humming because she all of sudden has a screw loose in the head and that's even more off putting.

Basically, give a solid reason as to why/how new52 was an illusion even though it causes massive plotholes and a reason for another origin story that was unneccesary and underwhelming.

[Stanlos]

Honestly, I thought the "Disney Princess Vibe" was in reference to the animals that have shown up representing the Gods

I am okay with it I suppose, but I am not okay with Diana not closing the deal on her own.

[Agent Z]

@ lovestar sleeping beauty was not trapped in an illusion and Dians humming cause she has a "screw loose" does not make her like a Disney princess. It's not like she instantly broke into song, this is just reaching.

Also, how exactly are we defying fierceness? What exactly do we even need fierceness for because it appears a female character becomes useless if she's not a perpetually scowling bloodthirsty killing machine these days

[LoveStar]

@ lovestar sleeping beauty was not trapped in an illusion and Dians humming cause she has a "screw loose" does not make her like a Disney princess. It's not like she instantly broke into song, this is just reaching.

Also, how exactly are we defying fierceness? What exactly do we even need fierceness for because it appears a female character becomes useless if she's not a perpetually scowling bloodthirsty killing machine these days

"Alice in Wonderland" should fit the illusion thing better but still something in her mind been "sleep" and still have the happy go lucky attitude. Ares the God of War got head butted and defeated by some animals. I don't care of it was the gods as animals, it was still lame and ridiculous.

Writers don't have to go over board with Diana fighting but don't shy away from it completely to be safe for peace and love. If you want love, give some tough love too especially with facing the God of War.

[BrianWilly]

Whoever said you had to point to ALL of the Elseworlds stories? You just point at one and go: "That one is the definitive one we will work from henceforth." And again Earth One is a better starting point because it's not connected to anything and not spread across 5 volumes.

Okay. Let's imagine that, after WW#52 in 2016, as DC Rebirth was just beginning, the writers say "Wonder Woman: Earth One is now the canon origin, everyone will be referencing those details from here on out."

But Steve Trevor is black in Earth One, while he was depicted for years as white in the New 52. Alternately, Etta was depicted as a black ARGUS personnel when the New 52 started, but she was a white woman in Earth One. How do you reconcile that?

Also, as we know, Zeus wasn't her father in Earth One, but that Hippolyta conceived herself with Hercules' seed. So, again, besides the fact that some of the gods are sort of her family, everything from New 52 onwards has been changed somehow.

DC is now forced to have to find a way to explain these things, or else readers and writers are going to remain confused. No one's gonna take "things are simply different now, just move on" sitting down because that's how all the mess-ups and frustrations with the New 52 got started (see: every single thing having to do with the Titans, ever) and is the exact sort of method that Rebirth wants to change.

DC can say "The black Steve Trevor is the way he really looks, everything else is just fake somehow" or "Hercules is her father now, everything you saw before was a lie" and come up with a whole big story to explain why, but...that's exactly what Rucka is doing now anyway! And he gets to craft this iconic new status quo which explains away all the confusion and mysteries on his own terms. And meanwhile, Morrison gets to continue crafting his own ideas on his own as well, without having to pander or cater to mainline Rebirth DCU continuity, which isn't what he signed on for in the first place.

I don't hate Earth One, but I don't hate it precisely because it's an alternate continuity exploration of WW, free from the constraints and technicalities of the mainline series. It would be absurd to just toss it into the start of Rebirth and tell everyone to act like it fits just fine; it doesn't, and just causes far more complications than it would fix, and I think the Wonder Woman series has had enough complications, don't you?

And thats not the thing. The thing is that somewhere between Lies and Year One, something happened, something big. Something that made everyone in Lies remember things differently, like they can reach Themyscira after leaving it, that Hippolyta is blond and so on. The question everyone is asking is which of these two is actually real and which one is a fantasy someone dreamt up to fool Diana.

YO was never meant to solve anything, but considering the ramifications it has on the other story-line, it should have provided something more than just base-level speculation. All we have, still, is the tree we only saw once and will only see again with the next issue in the present day, maybe with something more about what it is. And on top of it all, we dont know if YO ever happened or if it was just part of the dream.

There's no ambiguity here. Year One happened. Year One really, clearly, obviously happened. It's the true origin (up until some other writer messes with it somehow, and let's hope no one's that big of an idiot for at least a couple decades ). The blonde Hippolyta is the lie, the Themyscira they've "reached" up until now was fake.

The two storylines could not have been any more upfront about this, about the fact that the New 52 was a lie and this current origin we just saw is the truth. Sure, the story isn't over yet. But the only people who still seem to be asking "Which of the two is real?" at this point appear to be people who really don't want to let go of the New 52 stuff for whatever reason; the notion that the events of Year One might somehow just be "part of the dream" comes across like wishful thinking on their parts. And, no, there's not suddenly going to be a surprise third origin story that just invalidates Year One again. Not while Rucka is at the wheel and, hopefully, not for a long time if DC has any sense at all.

Writers don't have to go over board with Diana fighting but don't shy away from it completely to be safe for peace and love. If you want love, give some tough love too especially with facing the God of War.

But...isn't that exactly what she did? She tried to talk Ares down, but when he insisted on fighting her she just faced him down. Just like she defeated the Sear Group, along with Urzkartaga and his beastlike cultists. She hasn't been shying away from fighting, so when y'all say you want even more than what she's been doing, it simply sounds like you do want her to go overboard with the rage and murder and all that.

[LoveStar]

But...isn't that exactly what she did? She tried to talk Ares down, but when he insisted on fighting her she just faced him down. Just like she defeated the Sear Group, along with Urzkartaga and his beastlike cultists. She hasn't been shying away from fighting, so when y'all say you want even more than what she's been doing, it simply sounds like you do want her to go overboard with the rage and murder and all that.

She BOWED down to him. Talk? You don't exactly talk to the God of War. Fight him like the warrior she suppose to be. It doesn't have to be bloody but put up a good fight. Give more action and tension than talking. She does more talking and petting than action. Maybe it was the art with Urzkartaga, but that wasn't a fight either.

[BrianWilly]

She BOWED down to him. Talk? You don't exactly talk to the God of War.

Says who? Diana's been talking with him for decades. She talks to him all the time. Even Azzarello had Diana talking with a lot of opponents before charging them. There were entire issues of his run comprised of nothing but Diana talking with opponents.

And lest we forget, charging at Ares head on was literally the first thing Diana did this issue. Twice! The God of War swatted her aside, both times, because he's the God of War. Finally she tried to bargain with him, and then ended up having to fight him again anyway. I totally agree that a lot of the action in this issue was rushed, but this impression of Diana as some sort of wilting pacifist is incredibly strange. Just because she's more talkative and approachable most of the time?

And lest we forget (part 2!), Rucka has written some of Diana's most brutal and merciless takedowns, in the past. Medousa, Briareos, Max Lord; it's silly to think that he imagines Diana as anything but willing to fight when needed, when diplomacy has failed.

[brettc1]

Well she was humming in the previous issue so, singing just might be the next thing. She has also been stuck in an illusion for 5 years so maybe she is Sleeping Beauty. She is given this doe-eyed happy go lucky attitude. Again, no real tension or challenge just something you would see in a Disney Princess movie. And the god animals....meh. Azzarello's Gods miles better even with their attitudes.

The two stories was to retcon new52, it did that in the most dull way. Don't care about a tree...it's a tree. And a snake bite that conviniently and contrivantly starts bleeding after 10 years.

Naaaah.

Azarello's books was MOSTLY about the gods, but here they take a back seat and let Wonder Woman actually be the main focus of her book.

Wounds that never heal are a common theme in many stories, so there is no reasonable basis for complaint there, especially if it is linked with the illusion surrounding Themyscira. The happy go luck attitude you speak of can only be supported if you ignore every page in which it isn't true, which is a lot.

As for the tree just being a tree - Luke Skywalker would disagree with you. LOL

[LoveStar]

Says who? Diana's been talking with him for decades. She talks to him all the time. Even Azzarello had Diana talking with a lot of opponents before charging them. There were entire issues of his run comprised of nothing but Diana talking with opponents.

And lest we forget, charging at Ares head on was literally the first thing Diana did this issue. Twice! The God of War swatted her aside, both times, because he's the God of War. Finally she tried to bargain with him, and then ended up having to fight him again anyway. I totally agree that a lot of the action in this issue was rushed, but this impression of Diana as some sort of wilting pacifist is incredibly strange. Just because she's more talkative and approachable most of the time?

And lest we forget (part 2!), Rucka has written some of Diana's most brutal and merciless takedowns, in the past. Medousa, Briareos, Max Lord; it's silly to think that he imagines Diana as anything but willing to fight when needed, when diplomacy has failed.

He was suppose to be the big bad, all menacing obviously failed. If you want him to be a big bad serious villain, show a fight a true struggle not just talk. Azzarello had the fights to go with it and it actually had...again repeating balance and tension.
Strife was a better villain.

[LoveStar]

Naaaah.

Azarello's books was MOSTLY about the gods, but here they take a back seat and let Wonder Woman actually be the main focus of her book.

Wounds that never heal are a common theme in many stories, so there is no reasonable basis for complaint there, especially if it is linked with the illusion surrounding Themyscira. The happy go luck attitude you speak of can only be supported if you ignore every page in which it isn't true, which is a lot.

As for the tree just being a tree - Luke Skywalker would disagree with you. LOL

I would rather have gods with personality, for better or worse than magical animals. And, at this point, Luke, it's a tree, might look spooky, but nothing exciting.

[Vanguard-01]

She BOWED down to him. Talk? You don't exactly talk to the God of War. Fight him like the warrior she suppose to be. It doesn't have to be bloody but put up a good fight. Give more action and tension than talking. She does more talking and petting than action. Maybe it was the art with Urzkartaga, but that wasn't a fight either.

Ares feeds on violence. Trying to stop him using violence is like trying to drown Aquaman.

Gods in the DCU are slaves to their nature. Diana knows this. She used her knowledge to exploit the biggest weakness gods have. That's called being smart.

[CRaymond]

I have to agree with the idea that Diana and the Olympians tied it up a little too neat. The Perez era confrontation with Ares was wordy as hell, but I really think that was Diana's crowning moment: talking Ares through the futility of his nature. He became less of a direct threat through the rest of Perez run, Diana even empowering him further.

I'm a little drunk so bear with me: What if Ares became less of an outright supervillain, and more of a responsibility for Diana. Instead of a father figure, he's a drunk uncle. "War" is his nature, and that can't be changed, but he also can't be destroyed. What if Diana has to walk him through a metamorphosis, and butt heads consistently with his own horrible tendencies and problematic children... away from his bombastic Perez form, into his tired, despairing Azzarello form, and finally into the smooth God of Conflict form from Rucka's original run. Ending war is futile, but "War" can change.

[brettc1]

I would rather have gods with personality, for better or worse than magical animals. And, at this point, Luke, it's a tree, might look spooky, but nothing exciting.

I would rather have Wonder Woman front and center than a bunch of immortal mafia characters with an overabundance of personality.

Spooky is exciting, if you have a good imagination

[brettc1]

Ares feeds on violence. Trying to stop him using violence is like trying to drown Aquaman.

LOL. Quote of the month!

And hey, Captain Kirk agrees with you

[Pinsir]

Ares feeds on violence. Trying to stop him using violence is like trying to drown Aquaman.

But not even Ares can withstand Wonder Woman's signature technique!