Star Wars The Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

[WebLurker]

It took Luke 2-3 YEARS of training and experience to even be able to pull a lightsaber out of some snow from like two feet away. Rey, who just learned about The Force at all like a few hours before, and she can pull one out of the snow, from like 10-15 feet away, and out Force Pull Kylo. The latter is FAR more impressive than the former.

Not really. Kylo Ren's injuries in TFA interfered with his use of telekinesis, weakening them (TFA junior novelization). As we saw in TLJ, when fully healthy, Rey can't out-pull him. Rey is able to use telekinesis completely untrained (Star Wars Made Easy), however it is a skill that can be self-taught (Heir to the Jedi) and used untrained (Rebels, "Droids in Distress"). Also, Force-sensitives having a Force skill they can innately use is common (Ahsoka)

Vader was toying with Luke the whole fight in ESB (he was using one hand for a big chunk of it for goodness sake), he could have beaten Luke at any time, that was the whole point. Kylo has not been able to flat-out beat Rey, despite him having training and her not, through two films (he feels like no threat whatsoever at this point).

Kylo fought her twice in TFA; he curb-stomped her on Takodana and came close to winning on Starkiller Base (however he wasn't trying to kill her), but his injuries and Rey's Force boost worked lead to him being defeated due to the unique situations. He didn't fight her at all in TLJ (aside from the Force tug of war).

It took Luke another full year of training in-between ESB and ROTJ to use Force Choke and the Jedi Mind Trick (both Vader and Yoda confirm that he's had training in that time). Rey, does the latter again like a day after first learning about The Force AT ALL!! And she's doing things more impressive than even ROTJ Luke (again after three to four YEARS) mere DAYS in-between TFA and TLJ.

All the skills Rey uses have been shown to be used by untrained newbies at one time or another in the franchise, even by ones implied to have lower medi-chlorian counts (remember, TLJ shows that Rey is above average in potential) or as early level skills. Also, most of what Luke learned between the movies was self-taught. The movies also consistently show that she doesn't do well against highly experienced Force users on the top of their game.

And Anakin had to train with a Jedi master for over a decade to do things that Rey can do within days, with no real training at all.

As noted before, nothing Rey has done (except maybe the mind trick) are unprecedented first-time skills and she's an above-average user.

Also beating up some random thugs is NOT the same as beating up a trained Force User.

The only time she did that was when the user was handicapped. At all other times, she's at their mercy.

Sorry, but the situations between Rey and Luke/Anakin are not even remotely the same. She's clearly being set up as far stronger far quicker than them, and I find it SO BORING and lazy to be honest!

Not quite.

[abulafia]

Not really. Kylo Ren's injuries in TFA interfered with his use of telekinesis, weakening them (TFA junior novelization). As we saw in TLJ, when fully healthy, Rey can't out-pull him. Rey is able to use telekinesis completely untrained (Star Wars Made Easy), however it is a skill that can be self-taught (Heir to the Jedi) and used untrained (Rebels, "Droids in Distress"). Also, Force-sensitives having a Force skill they can innately use is common (Ahsoka)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG1AWVLnl48&t=5m47s

[Buried Alien]

Not really. Kylo Ren's injuries in TFA interfered with his use of telekinesis, weakening them (TFA junior novelization). As we saw in TLJ, when fully healthy, Rey can't out-pull him. Rey is able to use telekinesis completely untrained (Star Wars Made Easy), however it is a skill that can be self-taught (Heir to the Jedi) and used untrained (Rebels, "Droids in Distress"). Also, Force-sensitives having a Force skill they can innately use is common (Ahsoka)
Kylo fought her twice in TFA; he curb-stomped her on Takodana and came close to winning on Starkiller Base (however he wasn't trying to kill her), but his injuries and Rey's Force boost worked lead to him being defeated due to the unique situations. He didn't fight her at all in TLJ (aside from the Force tug of war).

There was also that kid on Canto Bight who, at the end of the movie, used the Force to call his broom into his hand. I doubt that kid has been secretly trained by any Jedi, Sith, or other expert Force-user.

Looking back to the Original Trilogy, Luke's use of the Force on Hoth to call his lightsaber into his hand was actually the first time we saw the Force used in that manner in any of the movies. We certainly didn't see Obi-Wan or Vader use that particular skill in A NEW HOPE, but Luke intuitively figured it out just in time to save himself from the Wampa.

If we're going to nitpick, a better question than why Rey is so good with a lightsaber (relatively speaking) is why Ben Solo/Kylo Ren, who trained under Luke for years and then received more training from Snoke, isn't a better lightsaber combatant than he is. Not only did he fail to defeat Rey in THE FORCE AWAKENS (which can be adequately explained through circumstances already raised earlier in this discussion), but he also struggled more than one would expect against Snoke's Praetorian Guards, who as far as we know, aren't trained in the Force. Though he mowed down quite a few of them, Kylo needed an assist from Rey to take down the last one.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[ChrisIII]

Yeah, the force seemed to be mainly a telepathic ability in New Hope-it mainly seemed to be able to improve Luke's vision/focus (The death star thing I don't think is him using the force to 'push' the torpedos or anything, but the force telling him *when* to fire; hence why he didn't need to use the computer), or befuddle the Stormtroopers; other than that it's only telekinetic use is when Vader uses it on Motti's neck, and even then it could be reasoned that maybe he made Motti "think" he was being suffocated (Vader's crushing of the rebel at the beginning is clearly hands-on). ESB's various acts of levitation are the first time we really see it do that.

[Vegeta]

Looking back to the Original Trilogy, Luke's use of the Force on Hoth to call his lightsaber into his hand was actually the first time we saw the Force used in that manner in any of the movies. We certainly didn't see Obi-Wan or Vader use that particular skill in A NEW HOPE, but Luke intuitively figured it out just in time to save himself from the Wampa.

Vader does telekinetically choke a man from a distance however, and in that same scene in the original 70's Marvel comic adaptation he also lifts a hot cup of coffee or whatever.

[ChrisIII]

Yeah, I think that was in the script. Probably good that it was cut though-how would Vader drink the thing?

[WebLurker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG1AWVLnl48&t=5m47s

That's not how the Force works. The tie-ins are fully canon. Citing them is as fair as citing a Star Trek TV show when talking about a Star Trek movie. If you don't like it that the movies are only part of the overall story, you're in the wrong franchise. (Besides, in this specific case, the tie-ins were essentially confirming what we're shown onscreen, anyways, so my point still stands.)

Looking back to the Original Trilogy, Luke's use of the Force on Hoth to call his lightsaber into his hand was actually the first time we saw the Force used in that manner in any of the movies. We certainly didn't see Obi-Wan or Vader use that particular skill in A NEW HOPE, but Luke intuitively figured it out just in time to save himself from the Wampa.

Sort-of, Luke self-taught himself in Heir to the Jedi, but the general idea of him working it out on his own without a teacher is correct.

If we're going to nitpick, a better question than why Rey is so good with a lightsaber (relatively speaking) is why Ben Solo/Kylo Ren, who trained under Luke for years and then received more training from Snoke, isn't a better lightsaber combatant than he is. Not only did he fail to defeat Rey in THE FORCE AWAKENS (which can be adequately explained through circumstances already raised earlier in this discussion), but he also struggled more than one would expect against Snoke's Praetorian Guards, who as far as we know, aren't trained in the Force. Though he mowed down quite a few of them, Kylo needed an assist from Rey to take down the last one.

Well, I think that the TFA example has been explained, as noted. As far as TLJ goes, I'd want to see it again, since I don't remember the exacts, but Kylo didn't see less skilled compared to Rey. As far as why the last guard got the drop on him (and why the guards held up as well as they did), we have seen non-Force users do well against Force users, so with the right training, I could see them causing trouble.

Yeah, I think that was in the script. Probably good that it was cut though-how would Vader drink the thing?

With a straw?

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[Carabas]

With a straw?

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[Sighphi]

That is splitting hairs in my opinion. There is an explanation given. She can fight. Stick, light saber. Maybe different. Maybe same. Light saber might be lighter to wield too. A lifetime of fighting for survival is the answer.

No, you are casting a tremendous broad brush. She knows how to use a stick against random people, therefore, she knows how to fight using any weapons against any person.

Even for SW that's a bit too out there.

You either accept it or not. Look at the Arrow show. Apparently spending some time in the wilderness of an island is enough to be an excellent archer. An injured Kylo who is fighting to capture. And Rey who is fighting to kill and is empowered by the Force. Combine them to her skills it did the job.

This isnt arrow this is SW and we are using SW events that apparently dont count anymore.

Yes Luke did so back at home. But he did it using the Force in case of the Death Star. It was not something computers could do. Its definitely a Force feat. You say as if Obi Wan was helping him. Obi Wan simply told him what to do. Luke did the rest. If you say mind control or force pull is something random you forget that the tales of Luke Skywalker is a legend. She must have known about those things. The things the Jedi could do. When she knew she had the Force with her she tried and it worked. It was not random if you say that there was no one like Obi Wan to tell her what to do.

I said the new Star Wars is in line with the original. Luke did pull out one excellent feat in ANH. This shows that something like this can be done. Rey simply did the same. More then Luke? Yes. But it is not out of line of what Star Wars has shown till now.

No it's not both Anakin and Luke were told about the force then trained to use it. They didnt just hear tales and start pulling out moves left and right out of nowhere.

No Obi Wan and Yoda did not teach him how to fight using a light saber. He put up a fight against a powerful Sith Lord without light saber training.

The very first scene is Luke predicting attacks using a LS, what the hell man?
On top of yoda training which we didnt see all of it.
On top of, the thing you keep saying about Kylo, Vader actually fighting to capture. Which actually ended up with Luke without a hand for "fighting to capture" doesnt mean taking it that easy.

From whom? Yoda? He went to Dagobah after saving Han.

i dunno, but he had time to do it, which rey does not.

Rey did something extraordinary. An explanation is given in TLJ. Darkness rises and light to meet it. She is a prodigy in regards to the Force. Force did that to make her a match for Kylo. I gave the analogy of weightlifting. If i am naturally strong i am better then a weaker person in lifting weights. But to really lift heavier weights as in competitions, i would need training. Mind control, force pull were some stuff she could do easily being really powerful. But for more she needed training. Only after training in Ahch-To, she managed to lift the rocks at the end of TLJ.

Explanations are given. They could have done a better job in explaining stuff. But its not that they are not given or are out of line of the original trilogy.

Yes i know the new lore. The issue is how it conflicts with the old lore.

Jedis were not mutants that just pop out powers, Jedis are people that train to become better.

[WebLurker]

No, you are casting a tremendous broad brush. She knows how to use a stick against random people, therefore, she knows how to fight using any weapons against any person.

Even for SW that's a bit too out there.

That is the official explanation (and we do see her practicing using such weapons in both TLJ and the TFA junior novelization). It's also worth noting that she's only been in one lightsaber duel so far (Starkiller Base) and you can tell that she's trying to adapt quarter-staff moves to a sword and it doesn't go so well for her until she connects with the Force.

This isnt arrow this is SW and we are using SW events that apparently dont count anymore.

About that...

No it's not both Anakin and Luke were told about the force then trained to use it. They didnt just hear tales and start pulling out moves left and right out of nowhere.

Not exactly. Anakin had been using the Force to podrace without realizing it in TMP. Luke self-taught himself more than a few things between ANH and ESB (not quite the same, but you get the picture). As seen in stuff like Rebels, "pulling out moves" without training is not unusual for Force-sensitives with no training (although control is not so good). While one could quibble if Rey has too much control, the fact that she can do a few things already is pretty normal.

The very first scene is Luke predicting attacks using a LS, what the hell man?
On top of yoda training which we didnt see all of it.
On top of, the thing you keep saying about Kylo, Vader actually fighting to capture. Which actually ended up with Luke without a hand for "fighting to capture" doesnt mean taking it that easy.

Each scenario is unique to itself.

i dunno, but he had time to do it, which rey does not.

Learning telekinesis did not take Luke a lot of time, per Heir to the Jedi. Also, it's very possible that telekinesis is Rey's innate Force skill, per Ahsoka (just my theory, but it does fit the facts).

Yes i know the new lore. The issue is how it conflicts with the old lore.

Jedis were not mutants that just pop out powers, Jedis are people that train to become better.

Not very much, since the idea of Force newbies bending spoons on their own is a pretty common thing.

[abulafia]

quoting (these) weekly shows as canon completely disqualifies for any argument(with me). not to mention SW junior crap or SW easy whatsoever.
kids can have that.
but i´d like to have movies which have internal logic. sorry for being slightly offended, but telling other peoples about what should be their franchise or not... you may think about that

just cause the mouse needs to sell full scale merchandise doesn´t mean i need to accept every cheap force gimmick.

i´d pay much for good SW material. but they decided other groups are more important.
so no EA **** loot box crap for me. i have fond memories of the good games and can replay them when i want to.
i´ll vote with my wallet. won´t stop me from calling out weaknesses of a franchise i have a soft spot for in my heart.
if they don´t need me, it is just a pity
hope for better material dies last

[abulafia]

why is it ok for finn to be the starkiller base janitor when it is obviously a degrading trope? granted i draw my knowledge from malcom in the middle

[WebLurker]

quoting (these) weekly shows as canon completely disqualifies for any argument(with me).

We can't discount them, though, since the Powers That Be counts them, as they said in the official announcement:

[Lucas] set the films he created as the canon. This includes the six Star Wars episodes, and the many hours of content he developed and produced in Star Wars: The Clone Wars. These stories are the immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters and events to which all other tales must align."

..not to mention SW junior crap or SW easy whatsoever.
kids can have that.

If you don't want to read the junior books, a-okay. I would actually say that it was a better-written book than the TFA novelization intended for adult audiences (it dug into the characters more), but it's entertainment. Consume only what you want.

The Star Wars Made Easy book was actually just a For Dummies-style guide written with the idea of giving people new to the movies a starting point of making sense of things.

...but i´d like to have movies which have internal logic.

I thought the movies logic worked okay, but to each their own.

sorry for being slightly offended, but telling other peoples about what should be their franchise or not... you may think about that

I'm just citing the "facts," as the franchise established them. I never said one had to like the materials said facts came in. Case in point, I don't like the Aftermath novels. I'm not getting copies of them. However, that doesn't change that the information in them is accurate.

just cause the mouse needs to sell full scale merchandise doesn´t mean i need to accept every cheap force gimmick.

i´d pay much for good SW material. but they decided other groups are more important.
so no EA **** loot box crap for me. i have fond memories of the good games and can replay them when i want to.
i´ll vote with my wallet. won´t stop me from calling out weaknesses of a franchise i have a soft spot for in my heart.
if they don´t need me, it is just a pity
hope for better material dies last

Fair enough.

why is it ok for finn to be the starkiller base janitor when it is obviously a degrading trope? granted i draw my knowledge from malcom in the middle

As I understand it, it's truth in television, so to speak, that military cadets perform such duties at the bases they're stationed at. Personally, I don't think Finn was ever really degraded as a character (he was a top cadet and good with weapons, including figuring out ship cannons, was very knowledgable about the First Order military and creating plans around that, and was shown to be able to adapt to new situations).

[Punisher007]

Perhaps the newest generation of Force-users is simply exponentially more powerful than its predecessors. The likes of Yoda, Mace, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and Sidious were astonished by the raw ability demonstrated by the Skywalkers (first Anakin and then Luke), surpassing anything they had known before. Perhaps the generation of Ben Solo and Rey is a similar step forwards, with individuals being able to access the Force to a greater degree than ever before.

The Force has awakened, after all; perhaps it had been only half-awake during the Prequel and Original trilogies.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Perhaps, but I don't find that at all interesting or compelling. It just feels like a DBZ-like arbitrary powerup, and it's so boring imo. If you have to crap on everything that came before just to make your story work, then your story wasn't very compelling to begin with.

[Punisher007]

so she is initiated by the force itself. i did like the people approach better than magic objects. also it doesn´t fit well with living aspects of the force. well, it just comes to my mind that maybe with the saber she has a dark force initiation, since the only time we have seen the force connected to a place was the cave in ESB. but that would prolly give the writers too much credit since it makes some kind of sense.

luke did´t not "fight" vader in ESB. he was taught a lesson, was humiliated and paid with a hand. yet:
“The greatest teacher failure is.” -Yoda

when did rey pay any prize? it is a common concept of initiation that you leave things behind. yes she leaves the past (parents) behind. but in storytelling, i think, it works better if it is given physical manifestation to underline the symbolism

Again some people seem to be forgetting/ignoring that the whole point in ESB was that Luke NEVER had a chance against Vader. Obi Wan and Yoda warned him, and they were right. Luke never could have defeated Vader at that point. The fight only lasted as long as it did, because Vader was toying with him the whole time. And once he took things even remotely seriously, Luke was beaten mere SECONDS later.

That's VERY different from Rey vs. Kylo.