15th anniversary of Brand New Day. Hooray?

[Kevinroc]

You may be getting to a different point about how Mary Jane as introduced in the Lee/ Romita run is different from the character now.

And she seemed to be rather popular when she was introduced, so there is a whole other question about whether a great supporting character was altered in order to fill a different role.

I do think MJ's popularity meant she was always going to be more than she was created to be. But we can only speculate as to what could have happened instead.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

You may be getting to a different point about how Mary Jane as introduced in the Lee/ Romita run is different from the character now.

And she seemed to be rather popular when she was introduced, so there is a whole other question about whether a great supporting character was altered in order to fill a different role.

I do think MJ's popularity meant she was always going to be more than she was created to be. But we can only speculate as to what could have happened instead.

It's a myth that MJ wasn't supposed to be the main love interest, though. She was definitely set up like that under Ditko.

[RJT]

There are also a lot more complications when something in a series enters public domain. You have to be very careful to only pull from the public domain material, and not touch anything from later stories.

When Spider-Man becomes public domain, it will be the Spider-Man of 1962. You'd have to wait a few more years before Mary Jane becomes public domain. And longer still for the story where Spider-Man marries Mary Jane to become public domain.

Marvel will always have the advantage of having access to all of Spider-Man, with the public domain version lagging decades behind.

If someone wants to read stories where Peter and Mary Jane are married and One More Day never happened, they'd be better served by reading fan fiction now, rather than waiting so many decades for all that stuff to become public domain.

It’s even more complicated by the fact that copyright has a set expiration date (in theory—we’ll see what kind of influence Disney asserts in trying to get it extended indefinitely) but trademarks only lapse when they aren’t used. So in theory you could make a public domain Spider-Man comic but you couldn’t advertise it as such and certain features of the character might not be able to be shown on the cover if Marvel/Disney has it trademarked—the spider on his chest might be an example.

ABlaze comics has been reprinting European Conan comics (where the character and Howard stories are in public domain) but they aren’t allowed to title the books Conan or use his name in the advertising in the US. The series is titled the Cimmerian for that very reason.

So, publishing public domain Spider-Man comics will be a logistical nightmare and I have no doubt that Disney will be looking for any inadvertent slip-ups to get rival publications shut down.

[Spider-Tiger]

It's a myth that MJ wasn't supposed to be the main love interest, though. She was definitely set up like that under Ditko.

I don't think Ditko was setting up Gwen Stacy to be Peter's girlfriend. But I'm not so sure about Harry's girlfriend either. I honestly believe he was setting up a female antagonist for Spider-man. Perhaps a love interest too, but in the old school Batman/Catwoman sense. I don't think it was a coincidence that he depicted Gwen dressed in red with high arched brows and devil horns in her hair. She looks and reads like a classic femme fatale.

gwen7.jpgtumblr_p9kb1iBE6t1xsaapuo1_1280.jpg

Unfortunately for her she ultimately ended up being a femme fatality.

As far as Ditko's plans for Mary Jane, it's possible. I think it certainly reads that way. But unfortunately we'll never know for certain because (as far as I know) Ditko never spoke publicly about his plans for those characters.

[Kevinroc]

It's a myth that MJ wasn't supposed to be the main love interest, though. She was definitely set up like that under Ditko.

Whatever Ditko had intended for MJ didn't matter to Lee and Romita. Because they were making Spider-Man at that point without him. My point remains that MJ's original role in the narrative under Lee and Romita as comic relief side-character wasn't going to last because of her popularity.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

I don't think Ditko was setting up Gwen Stacy to be Peter's girlfriend. But I'm not so sure about Harry's girlfriend either. I honestly believe he was setting up a female antagonist for Spider-man. Perhaps a love interest too, but in the old school Batman/Catwoman sense. I don't think it was a coincidence that he depicted Gwen dressed in red with high arched brows and devil horns in her hair. The direction of the book changed drastically once Ditko left.

As far as Ditko's plans for Mary Jane, it's possible. I think it certainly reads that way. But unfortunately we'll never know for certain because (as far as I know) Ditko never spoke publicly about his plans for those characters.

I actually disagree with Conway a bit. I do think Ditko intended for Peter to date Gwen before MJ. At least briefly. Peter and Gwen were interacting and showing interest in each other while MJ was still in the background.

But on his main point about how MJ was always the "main girl", I think he is right.

Whatever Ditko had intended for MJ didn't matter to Lee and Romita. Because they were making Spider-Man at that point without him. My point remains that MJ's original role in the narrative under Lee and Romita as comic relief side-character wasn't going to last because of her popularity.

That is true.

[WebLurker]

This is true, but frustrating.

There's an idea that people want to be taken seriously but not literally, but that only works if everyone has the same frame of reference. Once we have a forum where people are expected to have different backgrounds and perspectives, we should all strive to communicate more effectively.

I think it's certainly safe to say that the Marvel brass and different subsets of the fanbase do not have the same frame of reference on what Spider-Man should and should not be and can't say I see that changing anytime soon. Think that might be why the marriage discussions don't seem to find common ground and/or have people talking past each other; they're literally coming from different axioms on the subject.

There have been multiple explanations on this.

The basic idea is that there are more stories Marvel is willing to tell with a Peter Parker who isn't married (assuming kids and divorce are off the table.) There were threads about why Peter should be married or single a few years ago.

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...hlight=married
https://community.cbr.com/showthread...hlight=married

Marvel likes the ability to shake up the status quo every few years. The marriage complicates that by adding a new constant to the status quo.

I have this theory that characters have a window of plasticity where they can be redefined before they become "locked into" a specific form (a bit like Black Widow, who was invented to be an evil Soviet spy, but her core character is now a reformed hero looking for redemption). The whole "characters take on a life of their own" is a real thing. I'll concede that having stuff where multiple writers will work on it does add more variables to the calculus, but the point still stands. IMHO, the marriage status quo is where Spider-Man got locked in (it's still a defining trait of the franchise as a whole, it was an extremely convoluted setup to force the retcon through, etc.).

At the end of the day, though, the various status quos have their trade offs in what storytelling opportunities the open up and close off and all them have proven to be viable, which I don't think helps (single vs. married has proven to work and neither is inherently "wrong," unlike how Superior Spider-Man was always going to be a temporary thing). Mileage may vary, but I don't think it's an accident that the OMD backlash is still ongoing so many years after the fact (not to mention that many of the most vocal were the very people Marvel thought would prefer the retconned version).

MJ's troubled home-life wasn't that big a deal in the silver age when she was introduced.

That's hardly her defining attribute.

It not being in the silver age is irrelevant; the character's total history matters. Also, the adaptations in question were depicting her early life, when that piece of her backstory would be very relevant. The point is, having a troubled relationship with her father is a trait that specifically belongs to MJ and is not just a generic piece of fluff.

The similarities between Ultimate MJ and classic MJ (or the woman classic MJ became) seem to apply to pretty much every superhero girlfriend (helping the lead in small ways behind the scenes and being a moral support who worries about her significant other's dangerous calling) aware of his secret identity.

Red herring. The fact that MJ shares character beats with other unrelated love interest characters doesn't change the fact that it has been an organic piece of her characterization, too.

[Spider-Tiger]

It not being in the silver age is irrelevant; the character's total history matters. Also, the adaptations in question were depicting her early life, when that piece of her backstory would be very relevant. The point is, having a troubled relationship with her father is a trait that specifically belongs to MJ and is not just a generic piece of fluff.

Yeah, the silver age stories don't exist in a vacuum. They're part a larger continuity in which that backstory is a major part of her character arc. And so Raimi has it, 90s animated has it, Ultimate has it. Spectacular would have had it had it continued. The Webb franchise also had it in one of MJ's deleted TASM2 scenes, and presumably would’ve gone there in TASM3. So yeah I'd say it's a pretty significant and consistent element of her character.

People have this thing about selectively discounting story elements that weren't present in Amazing Fantasy #15. You see it the most with Mary Jane's entire character. Not just her backstory, but the fact that she wasn't present as love interest in the very first issue means she's insignificant or something.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

People have this thing about selectively discounting story elements that weren't present in Amazing Fantasy #15. You see it the most with Mary Jane's entire character. Not just her backstory, but the fact that she wasn't present as love interest in the very first issue means she's insignificant or something.

I wonder if they use that logic to argue that Wolverine is insignificant to the X-Men, or that Yoda is insignificant to Star Wars.

And MJ debuted closer to Spidey's first appearance than either of those two debuted to the beginning of their franchise.

It's clearly an argument only against MJ.

[Spider-Tiger]

I wonder if they use that logic to argue that Wolverine is insignificant to the X-Men, or that Yoda is insignificant to Star Wars.

And MJ debuted closer to Spidey's first appearance than either of those two debuted to the beginning of their franchise.

It's clearly an argument only against MJ.

Its also like saying the revelation that Darth Vader was Luke's father wasn't present in the first Star Wars film. Its a retcon that was added in the second movie. And so therefore isn't a significant element of those characters. It's a weird stance to take that ignores the totality of the lore.

But yes it's only one that I've seen levied against MJ.

No one is arguing that the connection between Norman Osborn and the Green Goblin is insignificant because it wasn't revealed in Ditko's run. Or that the Green Goblin isn't Spider-man's archenemy because he wasn't present in the first few issues.

[Matt Rat]

I was going to make this a separate thread, but figured it'd work here just as well

Using what's been written in the past, we should conjure up a 'superior' Brand New Day collection using only the 'peaks' of it and also include Slott and Spencer's runs. I would not 100% agree with all of the choices here, but for the sake of continuity some of these would have to be included.

Here's my picks for what the era ought to have resembled

-Unscheduled Stop
-Mind on Fire
-New Ways to Die
-Character Assassination
-ASM#600
-Back In Black Cat
-Gauntlet/Grim Hunt
-Origin of the Species
-Big Time
-Spider-Island
-Superior Spider-Man
-Spider-Verse
-Spider-Man/Deadpool
-Clone Conspiracy
-The Osborn Identity
-Secret Empire tie-ins
-Go Down Swinging
-Back to Basics
-Hunted
-Amazing Mary Jane
-Last Remains
-Sinister War

[Darthfury78]

The thing is...how do you make a comic by Roger Stern and Lee Weeks with Spider-Man, Captain Universe and The Juggernaut so utterly boring?! This should have been better than it was. Maybe I was just burned from Civil War...too many hero on hero fights.

If Roger Stern had been made full time writer of ASM(instead of Dan Slott) the battle with Juggernaut would had been flushed out better...

[CaptainUniverse]

If Roger Stern had been made full time writer of ASM(instead of Dan Slott) the battle with Juggernaut would had been flushed out better...

Maybe...the thing is, the whole point of the Captain Universe storyline was to give Juggernaut a reason for being depowered in Thunderbolts (Juggernaut was made significantly weaker by Cyttorak because he did not use The Enigma Force to cause chaos and destruction), so maybe Stern was just going through the motions when he wrote the story?

[PCN24454]

Maybe...the thing is, the whole point of the Captain Universe storyline was to give Juggernaut a reason for being depowered in Thunderbolts (Juggernaut was made significantly weaker by Cyttorak because he did not use The Enigma Force to cause chaos and destruction), so maybe Stern was just going through the motions when he wrote the story?

Nah, battles with Juggernaut are boring by nature.

[CaptainUniverse]

Nah, battles with Juggernaut are boring by nature.

They definitely aren't as fun as fights with the Hulk or Spider-Man can be or Spider-Man fighting the Hulk...those are usually pretty good.