Arrow

[AnakinFlair]

Here is someone who's just done with the newbies: http://fangirlish.com/arrow-6x14-rev...ot-team-arrow/

Back when the crossover aired, some people posted that the newbies on Arrow were the only ones that didn't need to be there and were out of place. I had disagreed with this at the time, but now I'm thinking about it: Team Legends were the ones that rescued everyone at STAR Labs. Team Flash were the ones that destroyed Overgirl's ship. The whole of Team Supergirl weren't there, but Alex and Kara played major roles. Meanwhile, while Oliver basically everyone into the fight, Team Arrow as a whole didn't come off so well, as the newbies came to help Caitlin and Mick, were defeated in seconds and got everyone not named Iris and Felicity imprisoned instead. So, I guess the crossover itself was making a statement about how useful they really were in the Arrowverse.

Earlier, I saw a post about how people had a hard time buying Katie Cassidy in fight scenes and that being why she wasn't popular as Black Canary. That was the show's fault: they went and turned the Black Canary identity into a legacy title. Laurel had, and this is an understatement, the difficult task of becoming the Black Canary right after someone who was played by an actual martial artist had it first. Of course she was going to look weak by comparison. That was the equivalent of having Milla Jovovich play an action role, and then turning around and giving it to Jennifer Aniston!

There is also the fact that a short time before they showed up to get beaten, Oliver specifically ordered them to stay in Star City.

I want to take your comment about Katie Cassidy a bit further. The problem started way back in season one. Very early on in the season, when Laurel saved Oliver and Tommy in Mas's club, they showed that she could at least handle herself in a fight. But then they never showcased those skills again. In season 2, they made her a drunk and an addict who was incapable of taking care of herself. and then in Season 3, they had her take the mantle from someone who was very popular in her own right and who was killed off for BS reasons. And then they showed that she really WASN'T skilled enough to take over. But due to the way time passes on this show, it felt like she was getting too good too fast. And she never did move with the confidence of Caity Lotz.

[Guy1]

There is also the fact that a short time before they showed up to get beaten, Oliver specifically ordered them to stay in Star City.

I want to take your comment about Katie Cassidy a bit further. The problem started way back in season one. Very early on in the season, when Laurel saved Oliver and Tommy in Mas's club, they showed that she could at least handle herself in a fight. But then they never showcased those skills again. In season 2, they made her a drunk and an addict who was incapable of taking care of herself. and then in Season 3, they had her take the mantle from someone who was very popular in her own right and who was killed off for BS reasons. And then they showed that she really WASN'T skilled enough to take over. But due to the way time passes on this show, it felt like she was getting too good too fast. And she never did move with the confidence of Caity Lotz.

[Frontier]

This series wasn't kind to Laurel post-season 1...

[Jim Kelly]

When ARROW first appeared on the CW, they took what was a very smart approach to the series by not making it overtly a super-hero TV show. Even the name, ARROW rather than GREEN ARROW, shows how they were trying not to be too comic booky. Which made it more accessible for a general audience. And it was also cost effective, because they didn't have to spend money on showing super-powers.

And personally when I watched it, I didn't really associate it with the comic book character. It was inspired by that, but it took in many other influences.

The first shift that started to undermine this reality was when Barry Allen showed up in the second season. Then THE FLASH enjoyed a lot of success right out the gate, while ARROW was struggling in its third season. And the producers looked at those FLASH ratings and saw that an unabashed comic book TV show could do very well. So ARROW chased after those good ratings by trying to re-invent itself as a costumed super-hero TV show.

But it was never conceived to be that kind of show and it became a lose-lose situation when it tried to be. Abandoning the core concept of the show alienates the people who came into it when it was grounded. Yet trying to keep that grounded reality limits how far over the top they can go with all the super-powers and costumes.

[AnakinFlair]

Curtis used to be the most sympathetic of NTA (as far as I'm concerned anyway), but it's moved on to Dinah with this episode. I can understand her wanting to kill Laurel after what she did to Vince and not trusting her about the money. She wasn't thinking clearly, but Rene and Curtis just seemed to be operating counter to what Oliver was doing just because they are mad at him. Curtis seriously injured Diggle, and did Rene actually shoot Felicity? For the good of the city, they all should've done what they could to secure the money first then figure out what to do with Laurel later.

When have they ever cared about the good of the city?

Shouldn't Agent Watson be coming in to arrest her for being a vigilante and working with the Green Arrow ?

That would actually be pretty compelling.

Oh, he only killed TWO of the major villains. I'm sure the dozens of security guards, bodyguards, and other assorted hirelings don't matter, then. And of those two, how exactly was his call to determine who should be spared? You understand the inherent fallacy of the "Judge/Jury/Executioner" mentality, yes?

Let's put it like this- in Season 1, he was in full on Terminator mode. It wasn't until Season 2 that he put his 'No Killing' rule into effect. And even then, I will admit that when it comes to the grunts, he plays fast and loose with it. I noticed it a bit in Season 3 when he was killing League assassins, and ESPECIALLY in Season 4 when he was killing Ghosts. but I blame that on bad writing more than on the character.

Merlyn did blackmail Oliver several times, but on the flip side he spared him at the end of Season 3 and even made him Ra's al Ghul. He had no reason to honor that bargain; he could have double crossed him after it was over, and didn't. He then spared him again when he took the ring back, to his detriment. He then trusted him enough to have his back to get his friends and family back, though I'll admit that was because Thea was in danger and in some twisted way, Malcolm did love his daughter. Slade he spared to prove to everyone- especially himself- that he was better than Slade. Actions he himself was undertaking... was Oliver raising an army of super-strong criminals as well? I don't get that.

Yeah, Oliver killed Darhk, who had wounded Felicity and killed Laurel- oh, and who had just launched every nuke in the world in an attempt to wipe out all life and set himself and his followers up as the new human race, and who had access to magics which left him too dangerous to leave alive. Just because Oliver could counteract his magic (in the most corny way possible) doesn't mean he could be held in a supermax prison for the rest of his life.

So you agree that Oliver violated their privacy, but your argument is that it's okay because it was Oliver Doing it. Heh, okay.

Oliver violated their privacy because he had intel that a member of his team was going to testify against him, and that impacted the whole team since once Oliver goes down, it's only a matter of time before everyone else went down as well. And he spied on the newbies because he knew it wouldn't be John, his brother or Felicity, his WIFE. Was it right? Debatable. Was it NECESSARY? Absolutely.

Explain your reasoning before offering your arbitrary opinion as a fact. What makes it laughable? Felicity made a decision while under extreme pressure. Renee did the same. Felicity's actions resulted in people dying but was forgiven for it due to the impossibly difficult circumstances. Renee's actions would have resulted in no one dying, but Oliver would been arrested and prosecuted. Of course this bears reminding: Oliver is a criminal and a liar. Oliver has killed people on numerous occasions. Oliver has no legal defense against this. He is a murderer, and he's never been legally punished for his crimes. It's fine to bristle and affect outrage over someone daring to hold your favorite character accountable for his deeds, but it's childish "he was mean to me first! Rrrr!" playground logic to say that Renee was actually doing a bad thing. Oliver might be a nice murderer, but he's still a murderer.

Felicity was under pressure because millions of lives were at stake at that very moment. Renee had time to stall. He could have asked for a lawyer, he could have done a number of things. Renee's actions would have left to people dying because without the Green Arrow on the streets and Diaz taking over, innocent lives would have been put in jeopardy. Doubly so if Oliver had been behind bars when Caydon James went to set off his bomb. And hate to break it to you sport, but Renee is a criminal as well, and considering he was running around shooting people with live ammunition before hooking up with Oliver, he's probably killed people as well. This isn't about defending my favorite character (that would be Thea, by the way), it's about pointing out your obvious bias against Oliver and your overzealous protection of Renee.

Uh, she had Siren on the ground and was preparing to break her neck, and then realized after encouragement from Curtis that killing the witch wouldn't solve anything. Your claim that Dinah would have still killed Laurel 2 is hot air. More to the point, if Oliver and Diggle hadn't gotten in the way, she and Curtis could have caught Siren and Star City would have gotten its money back.

Are you serious? Black Siren slipped away, and if Oliver hadn't slipped the collar on her, she would have wen't after her and killed her. And if they hadn't gotten involved, Laurel would have left and the money would have been returned- and if it wasn't, you know that Oliver would be tracking her and know exactly where she was. Hell, if NTA had listened to Oliver in the first place, Vince wouldn't be dead.

Which would be bad writing. If she publicly states thats she's Laurel Lance, then logically speaking, she should be arrested and prosecuted for vigilantism. If the writers ignore that, then this show really will have swiveled down the drain. Of course, this is the episode that stated that all Siren needed in order not to become a mass-murderering thug for hire, was a "daddy" in her life. Whether intended or not, her interactions with Quentin have become the creepiest thing on network television.

You have been watching this show, right? You do know how crappy the writing is? It's always been adequate, never good. It's rarely ever made sense. Just look to the business stuff in late Season 2. Once it was revealed that Isabel Rochev was a masked terrorist working with another masked terrorist, Oliver should have gotten his company back immediately. I will agree with you that Quentin's obsession with Laurel is getting really creepy at this point.

Heh, that's actually not what happened at all. When Renee-gate happened, Oliver booted Renee off the team, and Dinah and Curtis chose to go with him after becoming increasingly frustrated with Oliver

I.) withholding information from them,

II.) Intruding on their privacy,

III.) disregarding their input in favor of Diggle and Felicity, and

IV.) They got tired of his heavy-handed authoritarianism.

Actually, Oliver booted him off the team, then allowed him back on to save Quentin. When he proved that he couldn't follow orders, then he was booted off again and Dinah and Curtis went with him. At the time, I did feel for Curtis- he had lost everything to become a vigilante and had proven himself for two years now. I think in his case- though this is really poorly developed- he was the one member of the team that Agent Watson hadn't questioned, and had pretty much stayed away from. And he had lost his husband and his job working with Oliver and Felicity. So that planted some doubt against him in Oliver's mind. Dinah- well, she was spending time with a guy who had tried to kill all of them multiple times and who had already killed a lot of people, and kept it secret. And RENEE WAS A RAT. As to your points:

1) a leader sometimes needs to compartmentalize information. Just because you are on the team doesn't mean you get to know everything. Like just because I work for a bank doesn't mean I get to know the combination to every safe in the place, just my own.

2. There was a leak, and he needed to know who it was. The good of the team outweighs the privacy of the individual.

3. Diggle have been by his side almost since the beginning. Diggle is his best friend; he was best man at Dig's wedding and Dig married him and Felicity. Felicity is his wife. Meanwhile Curtis is the nerdy tech guy, Renee is the dishonorably discharged loose cannon, and Dinah is the cop-turned-assassin-turned-cop/vigilante who have been with Oliver for a cup of coffee. Yeah, he does value Dig and Felicity's input over theirs, for good reason.

4. The team isn't a democracy. He will listen to them, but at the end of the day it's his team and his orders are to be the words of God. There may be no 'I' in team, but there is a boss.

[AnakinFlair]

That's it? Why would that have to be done off screen?

Sandy Hausler

It wasn't done off screen. They actually showed that scene in a flashback at the beginning of Season 5.

[AnakinFlair]

When ARROW first appeared on the CW, they took what was a very smart approach to the series by not making it overtly a super-hero TV show. Even the name, ARROW rather than GREEN ARROW, shows how they were trying not to be too comic booky. Which made it more accessible for a general audience. And it was also cost effective, because they didn't have to spend money on showing super-powers.

And personally when I watched it, I didn't really associate it with the comic book character. It was inspired by that, but it took in many other influences.

The first shift that started to undermine this reality was when Barry Allen showed up in the second season. Then THE FLASH enjoyed a lot of success right out the gate, while ARROW was struggling in its third season. And the producers looked at those FLASH ratings and saw that an unabashed comic book TV show could do very well. So ARROW chased after those good ratings by trying to re-invent itself as a costumed super-hero TV show.

But it was never conceived to be that kind of show and it became a lose-lose situation when it tried to be. Abandoning the core concept of the show alienates the people who came into it when it was grounded. Yet trying to keep that grounded reality limits how far over the top they can go with all the super-powers and costumes.

Actually, it feels like they started off inspired by Nolan and his Dark Night Trilogy, but gradually faded into being inspired by the MCU.

[Frontier]

Let's put it like this- in Season 1, he was in full on Terminator mode. It wasn't until Season 2 that he put his 'No Killing' rule into effect. And even then, I will admit that when it comes to the grunts, he plays fast and loose with it. I noticed it a bit in Season 3 when he was killing League assassins, and ESPECIALLY in Season 4 when he was killing Ghosts. but I blame that on bad writing more than on the character.

I just assume what looks like fatal shots post-season 1 are usually just barely missing where it would be a fatal injury because Ollie is that good .

Although the Arrowverse writers in general can be pretty bad about their heroes no-kill rules, like those times where Barry and Kara end up killing people and it never comes up again so they can have conflict over whether to kill someone or not.

Actually, it feels like they started off inspired by Nolan and his Dark Night Trilogy, but gradually faded into being inspired by the MCU.

I think it started off as a Green Arrow show with some heavy inspirations from the Nolan trilogy and Batman in general, but retroactively became the Iron Man to the Arrowvers' MCU.

Now it's the Batman to Flash's Superman and Supergirl's Wonder Woman/Superman.

Legends is like those oddball team shows like Exiles or The Doom Patrol.

[Jim Kelly]

Nolan was certainly one influence. But again because of budget, ARROW could never have been that in TV form. They were going with the strengths of the CW--so a rich family drama about an over-indulged son with a ruthless mother and a wayward sister.

What I liked was that it was much more Count of Monte Cristo, Robin Hood, Robinson Crusoe, Hamlet--which the Dark Knight never was. The costume was a hood. He was a guy with a bow and arrow. Maybe he was Bruce when he's first trying out being a vigilante, but he wasn't Bruce after Lucius Fox provides him with all his tech. And nobody else--up until Malcolm Merlyn as the Dark Archer--was in a costume.

I'd maybe say it had aspects of the Shadow or Green Hornet. Those pulp heroes had confederates, but they didn't act like they were on a super-hero team. Oliver looked to different people, who may or may not know the whole story about him, for assistance when needed--but he wasn't building a team. That idea, that Oliver has to have a team to fight crime in Star City seems like something that they invented for all the CW shows. But in comic books, that's not obligatory. There are lots of costumed vigilantes who are loners and not beholden to anyone else.

[Charmed]

Black Siren is a manipulative, vindictive, attention-seeking troll...and I am loving it. Katie Cassidy does this kind of character so well.

[AnakinFlair]

Okay, at this point Oliver has to make some kind of statement as Mayor about corruption in the police.

[Charmed]

Black Siren playing them like a fiddle--- at least for the time being--- is great. Hopefully, she has her own agenda and isn't just hanging with Diaz to replace the father she never had (which is quite a stupid motivation for taking glee in murder, but whatever)

I can't wait for Nyssa to call Oliver "husband" in front of Felicity.

[AnakinFlair]

Wonder if we'll find out what happened to Talia next episode. And WHY take another two-week break?!

Also- if you know there are cops on Diaz's payroll, why the hell do you leave him for the cops? Drop him off at the FBI!

[Charmed]

Diaz talks such a big game I wouldn't be surprised if he had a couple of FBI Agents on his payroll, too.

I didn't even realize that there is going to be a two-week break. Ugh.

[numberthirty]

Well, this has actually been quite a bit more interesting than I thought it was going to be.