Was the marriage good for Spider-Man ?

[Mister Mets]

I've already thoroughly debunked the argument which tries to link the marriage to the dip in quality for Spider-Man between 1987-2007. In contrast how precisly does one explain the even deeper and consistent dip in 'quality' from 2008-present?



Also here are some pages from Spectacular Spider-Man #129 the issue that was published one month after the proposal but chronologically takes place BEFORE the proposal and is what should actually be rad before you pick up ASm #290, NOT ASm #289

Attachment 47512

Attachment 47513

Attachment 47514

I don't think the "dip in quality" from 1987-2007 has fully been debunked.

It's not just a matter of creative teams if JMS/ Romita Jr were telling better regarding stories prior to the reunion than after.

It's not a matter of different publishing standards/ eras if Ultimate Spider-Man was topping comics published at the same time.

As for the explanation for a perceived dip in quality from 2008-president, the explanation is simple: taste.

It would appear odd and rushed only if Peter married a character that had only been introduced to readers in a few months of stories. Like most recently, Lie/an.

MJ was a character that had been present in the comic for nearly as long as Peter himself. And their relationship was teased from the very beginning.





A throwback story meant to pencil in events between issues in the Lee / Ditko years.



See above, same thing.



Wasn't that good, or memorable. And it didn't seem to take place in the current era it was released.



Throwback story, didn't seem to take place in the current era it was released.



This was another throwback-type story set in the era RIGHT BEFORE THE MARRIAGE.



Didn't take place in any set continuity, but if it did, it would be the Stan Lee years.



Didn't take place in any set continuity, but if it did, it would be the Stan Lee years.



Spanned several eras of Spider-Man.



A throwback story meant to pencil in events between issues in the Conway years.



But they were still married (pre-OMD).



Still married (pre-OMD).



Still married (pre-OMD).



Still married (pre-OMD).



Still married (pre-OMD).



Still married (pre-OMD).

Mets, half of the stories you picked as the best in the "MJ is missing" era were retro-leaning, throwback stories which took place among the events of the very formative years of the title.

The other half were stories that actually took place during the marriage.

It was rushed because certain beats occurred pretty quickly.

One of the things that persuaded me that the marriage wasn't a wise move was my own feeling that between the marriage and One More Day, comics in which Peter and MJ weren't married/ together were better than those where they were married to one another.

If your argument is that the marriage was good for Spider-Man, the quality of stories in which MJ was believed dead or was separated from Peter does not appear to help.

[Mister Mets]

I'm responding to Spidercide's three posts from earlier today (Posts #33-35.)

I'm not quoting because that would break the character limit.

By "not openly dating" I meant that Peter and MJ weren't known to be a couple. Thinking more on it, the "openly" qualifier was unnecessary, since they weren't dating either.

I could see an argument for the engagement being plausible if unusual, but that requires stories dealing with the unusual aspects of it, rather than a one issue wedding.

As for the stories...
1. I disagree.
2. Maybe, but it was good.
3. While Untold Tales hit a few sweet spots, it wasn't just about continuity and stability. These were enjoyable stories.
4. If you don't like it, fair enough.
5. Peter considering a proposal is going to affect to mindset in the story in a way that won't apply to a married Spidey.
6. It was an issue that did not feature Peter and MJ together, and as far as I'm concerned, was superior to a later Holiday issue by Darwyn Cooke featuring Peter & MJ together.
7. For some reason Loeb & Sale weren't motivated to write about flashbacks to events during the marriage.
8. It can simultaneously be a good team-up and a good Spider-Man story. Peter's private life tended to be relevant to the stories.
9. An unmarried Spider-Man can still consider marriage. That can make for interesting drama.
10. I think Peter's private life was an aspect of the appeal of Coming Home. It was a mess.
14. The first two issues with the reaction to MJ's death and the comedy club. The Vulture blizzard story.
15. Fusion

As for the stories published during the marriage.
1. I'll grant you that one. A 20 year period is going to include some really good material.
2. It's okay, but I've seen no indication that the story is particularly well-regarded.
3. I'll grant you that one. A 20 year period is going to include some really good material.
4. I'll grant you that one. A 20 year period is going to include some really good material.
5. It's okay, but not as well-regarded as early Venom.
6. It's okay, but it seems to have niche appeal. Some people really love it, though that likely coincides with one's feelings on the marriage.
7. I'll grant you that one. A 20 year period is going to include some really good material.
8. It's okay but not as well regarded as the early Hobgoblin issues.
9. I personally wouldn't touch most of the Clone Saga stuff, and that story has plenty of enemies on all sides (some Clone Sage haters+ Ben Reilly fans)
10. As you say it not be the best story.

To make it easier for myself, I'm going to give the category with the issue number.
I'll agree that this is a great and well-regarded story from a lengthy period.
24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 32, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 49, 50, 51
I don't personally care for it, but I do accept that this is well-regarded.
45, 52
I get that it has some passionate fans, but I'm not convinced of its place in the Spider-Man pantheon.
19
I don't care for it as much, and it isn't all that well-regarded.
11, 12, 13. 15, 16, 17, 18, 20, 21, 22, 23, 30, 31, 40, 43, 44, 46, 47, 48
It's not well-regarded, but I'll agree that it's pretty good, even if we'd expect some pretty good material from such a long period of time.
14, 29 (My love for it is well known),
I can't comment either way. Thanks for the lead.
41, 42

Plenty of readers undermine the post-OMD format based on how it came about. Granted, my point on the marriage isn't limited to my objections to the wedding annual.

[Scott Taylor]

Stadium, man. Shea Stadium.

I sit corrected! Had field on the brain at the naming of Rickey Henderson Field last night.

[Metamorphosis]

I don't think the "dip in quality" from 1987-2007 has fully been debunked.

14 stories on the "Best Spider-Man Stories Ever Told" CBR list prove what you say to be wrong.

If there was a dip in quality, it could also be chalked up to a down turn in storytelling quality industry-wide at the time, same as post-OMD Spider-Man comic sales being chalked up to a down turn in the sales from the industry.

If your argument is that the marriage was good for Spider-Man, the quality of stories in which MJ was believed dead or was separated from Peter does not appear to help.

I think you're reaching too much here.

They were still married, regardless. If anything, it shows that good Spider-Man work can still be done with MJ not a focal point or appearing in every issue.

Other than Peter's kooky and hot neighbor that he took out a few times (which came to nothing outside of what Jenkins penned), there was nothing in the stories you mentioned that couldn't have been done with a married Spider-Man.

[Lee]

They were still married, regardless. If anything, it shows that good Spider-Man work can still be done with MJ not a focal point or appearing in every issue.

Those stories become exceptions though. If Spider-Man has a wife then she'll end up in at least 80% of the stories by necessity.

[Metamorphosis]

Those stories become exceptions though. If Spider-Man has a wife then she'll end up in at least 80% of the stories by necessity.

And this is a problem why?

No one here seems to have an issue with Anna Marconi appearing in "80% of the stories by necessity" currently.

[Lee]

And this is a problem why?

No one here seems to have an issue with Anna Marconi appearing in "80% of the stories by necessity" currently.

You framed it as "Hey, MJ doesn't have to appear in every issue". But at the same time, a writer wouldn't be able to come along and do a 40 issue run that doesn't utilise her.

If Amazing Spider-Man got a new writer who didn't want to use Anna Maria Marconi, they could simply have her get a new job at a different tech company and walk off into the sunset.

If the mandate is that Spider-Man is married and must remain married, then the writer has to use the wife character in almost every issue, whether they want to or not.

[dragonmp93]

Well, the out-universe reason of why Spidey sold his marriage to a demon is because a single Spidey could be taken in new directions; and that amounted to same stuff that he could have done while married and Superior Spider-man, 7 years later, the only thing that couldnt have been told.

[Metamorphosis]

You framed it as "Hey, MJ doesn't have to appear in every issue". But at the same time, a writer wouldn't be able to come along and do a 40 issue run that doesn't utilise her.

If Amazing Spider-Man got a new writer who didn't want to use Anna Maria Marconi, they could simply have her get a new job at a different tech company and walk off into the sunset.

If the mandate is that Spider-Man is married and must remain married, then the writer has to use the wife character in almost every issue, whether they want to or not.

Guess I have to break it to you that MJ is a classic recurring character that people WANT to see.

Same reason they couldn't get to 40 issues before featuring her again the BND era.

So either way, she's going to be appearing.

Well, the out-universe reason of why Spidey sold his marriage to a demon is because a single Spidey could be taken in new directions; and that amounted to same stuff that he could have done while married and Superior Spider-man, 7 years later, the only thing that couldnt have been told.

And even superior could've easily been done with a Peter Parker that was married.

[Lee]

Guess I have to break it to you that MJ is a classic recurring character that people WANT to see.

Same reason they couldn't get to 40 issues before featuring her again the BND era.

So either way, she's going to be appearing.

Like I said, when a writer wants to use the character, they are free to. But when she is Spider-Man's Wife the writer has to use her, in almost every issue. The former affords more versatility.

[Face Hugger]

There were lots of great stories that came from the marriage. It felt authentic, and in a sea of comics about playboys and playgirls having weekly conquests, it was different.

I really wish Pete was still married to MJ. It just felt right. The relationship came to define the characters. Now they feel listless.

[Metamorphosis]

Like I said, when a writer wants to use the character, they are free to. But when she is Spider-Man's Wife the writer has to use her, in almost every issue. The former affords more versatility.

I love how this is framed as what the WRITERS want over the audience that, you know, buys the damn things.

If the writers don't want to write certain characters, they should move on to something else.

[boots]

There were lots of great stories that came from the marriage. It felt authentic, and in a sea of comics about playboys and playgirls having weekly conquests, it was different.

i was a reader during the marriage years...where was this sea? and who was swimming in it?

[Metamorphosis]

i was a reader during the marriage years...where was this sea? and who was swimming in it?

Maybe this will..er..stir some memories.

[boots]

Maybe this will..er..stir some memories.

ha y'know...swimsuit specials seemed as normal as an annual back in the day. am i the only one who looks back now and thinks "weird"?