What Does It Take For Straight Readers To Accept That A Character Is Gay, Lesbian or Bisexual?

[QBall]

Given that Marvel continues to wave the continuity flag then I guess that coherent storytelling should be more than enough to accept any character as LGBT.

[VolcanikTiger86]

First I have to admit to knowing a few people who would identity as LGBT and I have counted them among my friends at one stage, as I mentioned in another thread I went to a wedding in which both partners were Transgender, I had a friend who came out thinking it was going to be awkward for me to say it wouldn’t be it we both should respect for each other. This question is aimed at straight readers and the discussion can be somewhat disrespectfull including the words straight privilege. These are extremely insulting because it groups people together and says you don’t get it so shut up. You are taking three things that for me are only a part of a person’s identity and say that’s you, you are part of the 98% of straight characters or the 95% of white characters or the 70% of the male characters. If representation is meant to mean a character like me then it can’t come down to the color of my skin, it can’t come down to my gender or my sexual orientation, I am an aspie that is key to my identity, I have dyslexia that is also key as well. So what I would be looking for is a character that I can relate to either one with dyslexia or one who is an aspie that is straight and preferable male because I sometimes have a hard time understand the way ladies think.
Sorry I disgress
Anyway the question what does it take for a straight reader to accept a character is gay lesbian or bisexual
What do you mean accept, take it that it is cannon for me they would have to say it and it couldn’t go back, so if they out adult iceman then iceman can never be straight again because it would weaken the story fyi that would mean the same in reverse if a gay or lesbian character was suddenly written as straight then for me to accept it she would have to be written like that going forward. Now because of the representation gap that exists I don’t think I need to worry about the second one happening because I doubt they would stay in business long because it isn’t a solid business move. However who can't be outed as gay or lesbian, characters with an established relationship with someone of the opposite sex for example Thor, Cap, Spider-man, Wolverine, Cyclops, Daredevil. These Relationships that have been favourites among fans, those who are party people like Iron Man and Hercules who are known womanizers .
Any of the two above could come out as bi but the question would be how to handle it while respecting the relationship before hand.

There is a difference between accepting a character is str8 and accepting bierasure. Herc was canon LGBT; and now is not. It is not the same thing as him always being str8 and having an editor repeat that fact.

Actually Herc was straight there was never any proof that he was bi except for a single page in Hercules Fall of an Avenger which was speculation at best.

Put it this way: if Axel had confirmed Mystique straight, would you think that was okay? If Axel confirmed Herc, Daken, Mystique and Loki as all straight... would posters be allowed to object at having erased the only LGBT solo stars Marvel had ever had?

Except for Herc I would say No that I would except Posters to riot including Str8 ones.

Did you even read what this was in response to? Axel has erased Greg's story yes, but AT THE TIME Greg Pak did indeed out Herc. So to say (as the poster I responded to did) that he's never been bi = is false. Which was the only point I was making. Herc WAS canon bi, period! Axel's comment changes canon NOT time and space

Except he didn’t out him, Namora teased Northstar and Northstar left but it was never confirmed on panel that Northstar slept with Hercules so a fan can with evidence state that Hercules was straight and their right but the only evidence that you have is that one page.

Given that Marvel continues to wave the continuity flag then I guess that coherent storytelling should be more than enough to accept any character as LGBT.

Agreed

[tsaimelemoni]

There is nothing disrespectful about the term straight privilege. The most important thing to understand is that the term describes a social phenomena that encompasses an entire societal structure. It does not hinge on individual treatments of one another, but patterns of social interaction and the results thereof. For example, you may treat women with respect, and treat them as equals, but that doesn't mean sexism and male privilege doesn't exist. You still operate in a social structure in which women are actively and passively receiving differential treatment. Same with LGBT treatment. Another term that I find closely tied to this conversation is 'structural violence.'

At any rate, I came upon this excerpt; there are probably better examples out there, but I think it's good intro read.

http://www.clgs.org/heterosexuality-privileged-place

[Kieran_Frost]

There is nothing disrespectful about the term straight privilege. The most important thing to understand is that the term describes a social phenomena that encompasses an entire societal structure. It does not hinge on individual treatments of one another, but patterns of social interaction and the results thereof. For example, you may treat women with respect, and treat them as equals, but that doesn't mean sexism and male privilege doesn't exist. You still operate in a social structure in which women are actively and passively receiving differential treatment. Same with LGBT treatment. Another term that I find closely tied to this conversation is 'structural violence.'

At any rate, I came upon this excerpt; there are probably better examples out there, but I think it's good intro read.

http://www.clgs.org/heterosexuality-privileged-place

Awesome post; love it! Being an ally doesn't mean str8 privilege doesn't exist; the same way I am a man (who identifies as a feminist) but I still have make privilege (and white privilege). It's not a bad thing, it's only bad if I deny it or act like it hadn't made certain parts of my life easier.

[VolcanikTiger86]

There is nothing disrespectful about the term straight privilege.

Two small things one I never said the term was disrespectful, I said the discussion can be somewhat disrespectful which would be labeling someone like me as having this privilege relating to character representation in comics when I have none and then saying I have this “straight privilege” because I’m, straight that’s it we are talking about representation so therefore as far as I can see what people are asking for is characters like them but I have none and they have quite a few now not saying they couldn’t have more or marvel couldn’t use the ones they have better but to group everyone together without considering any other factors than one small thing to me is disrespectful, so with all due respect please don’t blow smoke up my ass there is something disrespectful about the term and that’s how people can abuse it. The second thing is calling me a liar or saying what I am saying doesn’t matter because I have straight privilege when I say I don’t the poster replying say are you straight, yes then you have straight privilege but if its relating to character representation(characters like me) in any media I have to say no I dont.

The most important thing to understand is that the term describes a social phenomena that encompasses an entire societal structure. It does not hinge on individual treatments of one another, but patterns of social interaction and the results thereof.

Ok but if I don’t fit those patterns then correct me if I’m wrong I don’t qualify which I don’t.

For example, you may treat women with respect, and treat them as equals, but that doesn't mean sexism and male privilege doesn't exist. You still operate in a social structure in which women are actively and passively receiving differential treatment. Same with LGBT treatment. Another term that I find closely tied to this conversation is 'structural violence.'

Ok so since it exists people can turn round and say you are a part of that group when actually I’m not. That isn’t disrespectful, I have had 6 managers in my short career after university (about 5 years or so) and of that 6 only 2 were male and I never have had any one call me out, matter of fact I get on better with females than I do other males but hey guess what according to people like Kieran and Tiamitty I still have straight privilege, honestly I don’t care I’m of the mind if I don’t like it I won’t read it, I wouldn’t read a Northstar solo why because it doesn’t interest me, I wouldn’t be reading an iceman solo because I’m not a fan of the character wasn’t a fan before he was outed and I’m still not a fan of the character now, don’t like howard the duck guess what I won’t be reading his solo, not a fan of squirrel girl or sunspot so chances are I won’t be getting new avengers.

At any rate, I came upon this excerpt; there are probably better examples out there, but I think it's good intro read.
http://www.clgs.org/heterosexuality-privileged-place

Maybe but what happened to that woman was wrong and ILLEGAL.

Awesome post;

Open to debate but I found it somewhat informative.

Being an ally doesn't mean str8 privilege doesn't exist;

Noone is saying it doesn’t just that using the term in conversation can come across as disrespectful depending on how it is used just like any other term.

the same way I am a man (who identifies as a feminist) but I still have male privilege (and white privilege).

Well that’s on you if that’s what you want to think I’m not stopping you.

It's not a bad thing, it's only bad if I deny it or act like it hadn't made certain parts of my life easier.

IMO would be bad if you qualified for it and denied but if you don’t think you qualify for it and someone who doesn’t know you says you do then that **** is going to get complicated very quickly.

[Kieran_Frost]

I'm not debating this with you again (and I encourage others not to either, it sadly goes no where). You think you don't have male privilege, while privilege and str8 privilege. Fine. You are entitled to think that. Please don't derail YET ANOTHER thread on LGBT issues saying you don't have representation. As you were told before: you want representation start a thread; we will support it. The fact you HAVEN'T started a thread but yet again are in an LGBT thread saying you don't have representation is disappointing to say the least...

[Darkspellmaster]

I think the question honestly shouldn't be what would it take for X reader to accept X, but rather, what would it take for any reader to accept any change that is presented to a long, on going serial? There's so many factors about changing things within a story and not everyone will be able to take a change. You have to consider:

1. Does it work within the story that I'm telling?
2. Is this change something that will benefit the character going forward, or am I doing this because I want to leave a mark?
3. Does this counter known actions of the character in the past?
4. Is the change something that the character would do or become? If yes, how do I do so in a way that will be something that the reader is willing to engage with going forward?
5. Is the narrator of the event going to be someone that is a reliable, truthful POV?
6. For that matter, what sort of people are around the character, will they accept the change easily?
7. How will this impact other writers that come on after me? 5 years? A decade?
8. Is this an important change in general, or is this something that I just pulled out of my own head cannon?
9. Does this in any way mess with the set up at the company I work for?
10. Do I, as the writer, believe in this change?

I think, the best way to answer the question about acceptance is to figure out what is and isn't good written narrative in general. There's been so many wild events that have changed over the years and some not for the better.

I have no issue accepting a characters sexuality, I have issue in how said sexuality is brought to the forefront and explanations of it. I'll give you three examples:

Kimber from Jem. The way Kelly and Sophie presented her relationship with Mary "Stormer" of the Misfits is great. Not only do we see them interacting, but the quieter moments and talking from the other characters shows that this is something that has been going on for a while. Kimber has dated other women, it's shown in her actions, and it's not something that is hammered into the story, it evolved over the past several issues and we, as readers, got to know Mary better and see how they slowly fell in love. By doing this both ladies have given readers ample examples from reliable narrators (Kim's sisters, Mary and Kimber, and even the Misfits) about their orientation. Because of this a reader can say, "Okay cool, this is how it is." and accept is because it's been shown to us, not just told to us, much like any other aspect of a story.

Iceman's outing has me upset for other reasons. I'm not a huge fan of telepaths in the first place, I tend to think that there's a rather big issue at times with them poking into peoples minds and pulling things out in general. That being said I don't find the way Iceman was outed to be a reliable way of telling the story. First you pull it out of younger Bobby's mind, right off the bat that's a bit of an invasion of privacy which irked me right there, second as much as I see Jean as a smart person, I'm not a hundred percent on her being a reliable narrator. She's still learning about her powers, because we didn't see what she saw, at least that's what seems to be the case here, we as readers can't judge what she's saying to be completely the truth. She could have found Bobby being attracted to males (happens to guys in a number of cases for those that are Bi or they may find aspects of a person attractive) and assumed that he's gay, when it just as likely could be, given his past infatuation with females, that he's bi and hedges more on the opposite sex side. We can't know for sure until there's a way to confirm things via Bobby himself and going through things to figure things out, or someone else shows us the readers what's going on in his mind.

As far as narrative goes, this is something that has to be done over a period of time, particularly if a character has a long standing public history in regard to what we the readers have been shown. Same thing with Prodigy, I still don't feel 100% about him. I don't doubt it, but as far as understanding the narrative reasoning that was given it's hard to compute. From what I know of the character he takes what he's learned and can apply that to himself in certain ways, like knowing how to fly the blackbird. However, from my understanding, sexuality is more of a nature thing. You can't just learn it in the same way you learn to fly. The narrative of the events in YA had me thinking that he implied that he felt the experiences of others and learned about his bisexuality that way. Now my only issue with this comes down to the fact that he didn't experience it himself until he kissed Teddy, which is fine, but I would think that one would have had to have grappled more with figuring out the how and why of that issue for themselves. The thing is that it was partly used as a means of creating tension for Wiccan and Hulking. Again, reliable narrator. I trust him way more then Jean, but at the same time given the situation, I think it should have been explored more and at least gotten some more discussion in some way.

Which brings me to two points. 1. I hate it when a writer drops a change, and doesn't explore things more, then leaves it for the next writer to come in and explain things. Writers aren't mind readers, they can't know what the previous writer wanted to do, so it leaves all sorts of hanging questions in the air. 2. Why is it that a gay couple doesn't seem to be allowed to go through with break ups and issues the same that a lot of other couples in books are? It's like everyone's afraid of breaking up a couple, yet it happens all the time for other characters, even if fans don't agree with it. How many girls has Hawkeye dated recently?

Lastly the third example is Tony's sudden revelation about not being a Stark but adopted. When this came out there was a huge blow up, and it's the same problem with Iceman. A narrator that isn't honest, we're talking Tony and a questionable alien robot that we know little about here, and a situation that was brought up out of the blue in such a way that it made people double take. No taking moments from the past that could be used as re written foreshadowing this event, not a lot of build up as I understand it, and also a very large deviation to a huge standing on Tony's whole past. How do you suddenly accept that every thing that you know about a character has been false up till then, everything they know about their own past has been false for the most part (yes Tony experienced everything that he did, but still). As such how do we, as readers now, trust what is presented to us about tony's past and where he gets his skills. Then all this build up, practically wiped out because well Secret Wars.

So what do readers do? Who do we rely on to give us the facts, and how much can we trust in something when we know that other writers can then come in and bend things just slightly to change things yet again. Accepting something isn't that hard, what is hard is being presented something that comes off as being not honest and then letting it drop into someone else to clean up. that's where all the annoyance comes from, the fact that it's a sudden change with sometimes no build up, and then left to be worked on by future writers who may not have a clue how to write the character in their changed state.

[Kieran_Frost]

Iceman's outing has me upset for other reasons. I'm not a huge fan of telepaths in the first place, I tend to think that there's a rather big issue at times with them poking into peoples minds and pulling things out in general. That being said I don't find the way Iceman was outed to be a reliable way of telling the story. First you pull it out of younger Bobby's mind, right off the bat that's a bit of an invasion of privacy which irked me right there, second as much as I see Jean as a smart person, I'm not a hundred percent on her being a reliable narrator. She's still learning about her powers, because we didn't see what she saw, at least that's what seems to be the case here, we as readers can't judge what she's saying to be completely the truth. She could have found Bobby being attracted to males (happens to guys in a number of cases for those that are Bi or they may find aspects of a person attractive) and assumed that he's gay, when it just as likely could be, given his past infatuation with females, that he's bi and hedges more on the opposite sex side. We can't know for sure until there's a way to confirm things via Bobby himself and going through things to figure things out, or someone else shows us the readers what's going on in his mind.

Bobby did confirm it. "I know".

[VolcanikTiger86]

I'm not debating this with you again (and I encourage others not to either, it sadly goes no where). You think you don't have male privilege, while privilege and str8 privilege. Fine. You are entitled to think that. Please don't derail YET ANOTHER thread on LGBT issues saying you don't have representation. As you were told before: you want representation start a thread; we will support it. The fact you HAVEN'T started a thread but yet again are in an LGBT thread saying you don't have representation is disappointing to say the least...

Thank you Kieran, thank you so much for proving my point, I can go and check but I would put money on the fact that last time you didn’t actually debate anything with me so how would you know if it will go anywhere, last time you were telling me that I had str8 privilege and ignored me when I say I didn’t exactly like you doing now by saying you want representation (never said I did btw) start a thread and you will support it. The fact that you aren’t catching my point is also disappointing because it must have crossed your mind that there is a reason I’m bringing it up.
The term Str8 privilege can be abused and thrown out and the only reason that I can think of is you don’t want actually discussion, you don’t want people telling you things you don’t want to hear, you are expecting everyone to agree with you and when they don't they are homophobic and bigots, you want change and you want it NOW and yet when people flinch away from that change you go in for the jugular. I will say this and I would ask you to go over all my posts and understand that I’m not your enemy I want to know why,
why specific do you think Marvel needs to give you that representation,
what’s the reason behind you pushing for it,
when did you realize that this is something you want these questions gives everyone an idea of your mindset, you once opened a thread that it was laughable and absurd that marvel hadn’t released a gay solo and you and others couldn’t even conceive the fact that maybe Marvel hadn’t been given a good pitch, no way no how, that sort of stubbornness for me means I might as well talk to the wall as talk to you. You also went on to insult any writer who wasn’t prepared to do it regardless of their orientation, you insulted me because I said I would never do it why because I’m not comfortable reading, watching or listening to two guys kissing.
I am generally an honest down to earth guy who was bullied for 9 years, I’m still honest, a gentleman (I actually agreed to go to a gay bar with a friend to support him and being honest I wasn’t looking forward to it but he didn’t take me up on my offer but I would have gone)
Now I don’t expect you will reply and I don’t need you to, but I would like to hear what you have to say.

[VolcanikTiger86]

I think the question honestly shouldn't be what would it take for X reader to accept X, but rather, what would it take for any reader to accept any change that is presented to a long, on going serial? There's so many factors about changing things within a story and not everyone will be able to take a change. You have to consider:

1. Does it work within the story that I'm telling?
2. Is this change something that will benefit the character going forward, or am I doing this because I want to leave a mark?
3. Does this counter known actions of the character in the past?
4. Is the change something that the character would do or become? If yes, how do I do so in a way that will be something that the reader is willing to engage with going forward?
5. Is the narrator of the event going to be someone that is a reliable, truthful POV?
6. For that matter, what sort of people are around the character, will they accept the change easily?
7. How will this impact other writers that come on after me? 5 years? A decade?
8. Is this an important change in general, or is this something that I just pulled out of my own head cannon?
9. Does this in any way mess with the set up at the company I work for?
10. Do I, as the writer, believe in this change?

I think, the best way to answer the question about acceptance is to figure out what is and isn't good written narrative in general. There's been so many wild events that have changed over the years and some not for the better.

I have no issue accepting a characters sexuality, I have issue in how said sexuality is brought to the forefront and explanations of it. I'll give you three examples:

Kimber from Jem. The way Kelly and Sophie presented her relationship with Mary "Stormer" of the Misfits is great. Not only do we see them interacting, but the quieter moments and talking from the other characters shows that this is something that has been going on for a while. Kimber has dated other women, it's shown in her actions, and it's not something that is hammered into the story, it evolved over the past several issues and we, as readers, got to know Mary better and see how they slowly fell in love. By doing this both ladies have given readers ample examples from reliable narrators (Kim's sisters, Mary and Kimber, and even the Misfits) about their orientation. Because of this a reader can say, "Okay cool, this is how it is." and accept is because it's been shown to us, not just told to us, much like any other aspect of a story.

Iceman's outing has me upset for other reasons. I'm not a huge fan of telepaths in the first place, I tend to think that there's a rather big issue at times with them poking into peoples minds and pulling things out in general. That being said I don't find the way Iceman was outed to be a reliable way of telling the story. First you pull it out of younger Bobby's mind, right off the bat that's a bit of an invasion of privacy which irked me right there, second as much as I see Jean as a smart person, I'm not a hundred percent on her being a reliable narrator. She's still learning about her powers, because we didn't see what she saw, at least that's what seems to be the case here, we as readers can't judge what she's saying to be completely the truth. She could have found Bobby being attracted to males (happens to guys in a number of cases for those that are Bi or they may find aspects of a person attractive) and assumed that he's gay, when it just as likely could be, given his past infatuation with females, that he's bi and hedges more on the opposite sex side. We can't know for sure until there's a way to confirm things via Bobby himself and going through things to figure things out, or someone else shows us the readers what's going on in his mind.

As far as narrative goes, this is something that has to be done over a period of time, particularly if a character has a long standing public history in regard to what we the readers have been shown. Same thing with Prodigy, I still don't feel 100% about him. I don't doubt it, but as far as understanding the narrative reasoning that was given it's hard to compute. From what I know of the character he takes what he's learned and can apply that to himself in certain ways, like knowing how to fly the blackbird. However, from my understanding, sexuality is more of a nature thing. You can't just learn it in the same way you learn to fly. The narrative of the events in YA had me thinking that he implied that he felt the experiences of others and learned about his bisexuality that way. Now my only issue with this comes down to the fact that he didn't experience it himself until he kissed Teddy, which is fine, but I would think that one would have had to have grappled more with figuring out the how and why of that issue for themselves. The thing is that it was partly used as a means of creating tension for Wiccan and Hulking. Again, reliable narrator. I trust him way more then Jean, but at the same time given the situation, I think it should have been explored more and at least gotten some more discussion in some way.

Which brings me to two points. 1. I hate it when a writer drops a change, and doesn't explore things more, then leaves it for the next writer to come in and explain things. Writers aren't mind readers, they can't know what the previous writer wanted to do, so it leaves all sorts of hanging questions in the air. 2. Why is it that a gay couple doesn't seem to be allowed to go through with break ups and issues the same that a lot of other couples in books are? It's like everyone's afraid of breaking up a couple, yet it happens all the time for other characters, even if fans don't agree with it. How many girls has Hawkeye dated recently?

Lastly the third example is Tony's sudden revelation about not being a Stark but adopted. When this came out there was a huge blow up, and it's the same problem with Iceman. A narrator that isn't honest, we're talking Tony and a questionable alien robot that we know little about here, and a situation that was brought up out of the blue in such a way that it made people double take. No taking moments from the past that could be used as re written foreshadowing this event, not a lot of build up as I understand it, and also a very large deviation to a huge standing on Tony's whole past. How do you suddenly accept that every thing that you know about a character has been false up till then, everything they know about their own past has been false for the most part (yes Tony experienced everything that he did, but still). As such how do we, as readers now, trust what is presented to us about tony's past and where he gets his skills. Then all this build up, practically wiped out because well Secret Wars.

So what do readers do? Who do we rely on to give us the facts, and how much can we trust in something when we know that other writers can then come in and bend things just slightly to change things yet again. Accepting something isn't that hard, what is hard is being presented something that comes off as being not honest and then letting it drop into someone else to clean up. that's where all the annoyance comes from, the fact that it's a sudden change with sometimes no build up, and then left to be worked on by future writers who may not have a clue how to write the character in their changed state.

I think this is a very good post

[The Fury]

Bobby did confirm it. "I know".

Wrong one.

[RLAAMJR.]

Two small things one I never said the term was disrespectful, I said the discussion can be somewhat disrespectful which would be labeling someone like me as having this privilege relating to character representation in comics when I have none and then saying I have this “straight privilege” because I’m, straight that’s it we are talking about representation so therefore as far as I can see what people are asking for is characters like them but I have none and they have quite a few now not saying they couldn’t have more or marvel couldn’t use the ones they have better but to group everyone together without considering any other factors than one small thing to me is disrespectful, so with all due respect please don’t blow smoke up my ass there is something disrespectful about the term and that’s how people can abuse it. The second thing is calling me a liar or saying what I am saying doesn’t matter because I have straight privilege when I say I don’t the poster replying say are you straight, yes then you have straight privilege but if its relating to character representation(characters like me) in any media I have to say no I dont.

Well said.

[Kieran_Frost]

Wrong one.

Well that wasn't clear In October all will be revealed.

Thank you Kieran, thank you so much for proving my point, I can go and check but I would put money on the fact that last time you didn’t actually debate anything with me so how would you know if it will go anywhere, last time you were telling me that I had str8 privilege and ignored me when I say I didn’t

C'est la vie.

exactly like you doing now by saying you want representation (never said I did btw) start a thread and you will support it.

If you don't care about your representation, carting it out to "silence" others is pretty disingenuous.

[Spider-Tron]

If you don't care about your representation, carting it out to "silence" others is pretty disingenuous.

Silencing? Coming from the guy who has been immediately caling people's opinions invalid and telling them they "don't get it" all thread, I don't think you should be calling out people for "silencing"

[Darth Kal-el]

If we can't have a dialogue about things we disagree with we will get no where