New Avengers #23 (spoilers)

[MichaelAngel0]

Glanced at it. Steve can make the speeches, that's part of what being Captain America is, but will anyone listen or care? The ends justify the means at marvel and while Steve may be willing to go the moral route he's a minority.

From Dissesembled on the marvel writers have crafted the marvel characters to be capable of doing the right thing only when it is the only way left and being the good guys again only when they have an ultimate evil like the Red Skull to face. Until then the biggest threat to the superheroes is the superheroes with characters either dumbed down to fit the plot or made evil to fit the plot. In my opinion only when the storylines don't matter like some of the individual titles She-Hulk, Ms. Marvel and a few others are the superheroes allowed to be heroic. In the big titles like this or in the crossovers they are simply killers with reasons and morals don't matter. At best the morals make the hesitate for a little bit and then they do the horrible things anyway.
I don't think that the marvel writers in these big events want the old heroes to be heroic, they want them to be as bad as they can possibly be and each event since AD has written the heroes to go lower and lower and lower. Wanda goes crazy in AD, Tony goes fascist in cw, Cyclops is a murderer and the Avengers are held in a vr prison by the X-men and tortured in AvX.
Well for me they've gotten to the point with this story where no matter what villain they introduce to show the good guys in a good light again it simply won't work. These guys have taken the heel turn, they've blown up a world, murdered it's heroes and they are going to skip away from it because that's what happens with every one of these events. Give it a few months and no one will remember the Great Society, a year and Namor will be forgiven.

Ultimately I go back to a question I asked a while back, to the Great Societies world who is the greater villain, the Illuminati who murdered them or the Red Skull who would have ruled them as a vicious tyrant? At worst with the Skull they would have had to endure a couple of decades of his rule, with the Illuminati they are dead. So while this may be marvel and Hickman's view of what heroism is, it is not mine. Steve can make all the speeches that he wants, they'll fall on deaf ears as far the characters go and I'm not even sure that the writers believe them anymore.

You keep going to these extremes without looking at the context of those situations (even if they are written poorly, and even if you don't necessarily agree), and it's getting frustrating to read your posts.

Also, I still see the Great Society as selfish. Yes, with the Illuminati they're dead....but they were willing to let both universes perish just so they could stay true to their ideals. Their universe should be glad the Illuminati did what they did. And don't bring up the dead people of the GS Earth; yes they were murdered, but their "heroes" were just going to sit back and watch them die anyway.

[DurararaFTW]

At worst with the Skull they would have had to endure a couple of decades of his rule,

I think Red Skull has proven that old age isn't gonna do him in anytime soon.

[XPac]

You keep going to these extremes without looking at the context of those situations (even if they are written poorly, and even if you don't necessarily agree), and it's getting frustrating to read your posts.

Also, I still see the Great Society as selfish. Yes, with the Illuminati they're dead....but they were willing to let both universes perish just so they could stay true to their ideals. Their universe should be glad the Illuminati did what they did. And don't bring up the dead people of the GS Earth; yes they were murdered, but their "heroes" were just going to sit back and watch them die anyway.

I don't think it's fair to argue their heroes were going to sit back and watch the die. I think the Great Society were going to try and find a solution to the problem. They at no point seemed willing to just give up like the Illuminati. Whether or not they were going to actually suceed is another matter... but I think they were going to try.

[MichaelAngel0]

I don't think it's fair to argue their heroes were going to sit back and watch the die. I think the Great Society were going to try and find a solution to the problem. They at no point seemed willing to just give up like the Illuminati. Whether or not they were going to actually suceed is another matter... but I think they were going to try.

Sun God said that they had no ideas; only "hope". He also told Batman that if nothing came to them, then they'd just have to accept their deaths.

They were going to sit back and watch two universes die.

[XPac]

Sun God said that they had no ideas; only "hope". He also told Batman that if nothing came to them, then they'd just have to accept their deaths.

They were going to sit back and watch two universes die.

There's a difference between not having any ideas and giving up though. The fact that they couldn't think of anything at that specific moment doesn't mean they weren't trying to figure something out.

Trying to think of something is not the same thing as sitting back and allowing their universe to die.

[hawkeyefan]

I looked at it, then put it back. Maybe I'll pick it up next week. Sorry but at this point I'm too depressed to even think of the bad guys as worth not liking or the good guys as worth cheering on. Hickman and marvel don't want good guys, they don't want bad guys, they just want lots of death and more death and even more death and I don't think that the bloodlust will ever be satisfied. I'm a little surprised that Namor and his new buddies didn't stop to rape a bit before the slaughter, but I guess they were in a hurry.

Let them all die, no one on either team seems to be worth much anyway, they just have different reasons for killing worlds. I'm going to try hard not to care anymore.

Jeez Mark....if this story upsets you that much, then you really should ignore it. Comics are supposed to be fun, even if they're dark or grim in nature.

The location of Cyclops school is like the worst kept secret in the marvel universe. At this point they can probably find the location on Map Quest. I'm not sure that's the safest place for the Illuminati to be hanging out, if in fact they decide they need a place to crash.

Gotcha. I personally have no idea where it is though, so they must be doing something right.
Oooooor I just don't read any x-books

There's a difference between not having any ideas and giving up though. The fact that they couldn't think of anything at that specific moment doesn't mean they weren't trying to figure something out.

Trying to think of something is not the same thing as sitting back and allowing their universe to die.

Okay, but at what point do those two things coincide? When would it actually be acceptable to acknowledge that you can't think of something to do? That you've run out of ideas and all the hope won't accomplish anything?

Do you think those two stances don't have a point at which they connect?

[XPac]

Jeez Mark....if this story upsets you that much, then you really should ignore it. Comics are supposed to be fun, even if they're dark or grim in nature.



Gotcha. I personally have no idea where it is though, so they must be doing something right.
Oooooor I just don't read any x-books



Okay, but at what point do those two things coincide? When would it actually be acceptable to acknowledge that you can't think of something to do? That you've run out of ideas and all the hope won't accomplish anything?

Do you think those two stances don't have a point at which they connect?

They don't coincide at all, because one is still trying while the other is giving up. In practicality it might not make a lot of difference if trying results in failure, but in principal at least I would argue it makes a world of difference. Trying at least creates the potential for sucess regardless of whether that sucess is actually achieved or not, while giving up essentially gurantees failure.

My biggest criticism of the Illuminati in NA 23 was NOT that they failed to find a means of stopping the incursions. Rather it was they didn't even try. They just gave up. And I don't think Hickman was potraying the Great Society in that manner at all. The difference was hope.

[Mark]

The context doesn't matter much when the writing is forced. I state the facts, Wanda did go crazy, Tony did become a fascist, Cyclops did murder Prof X and Spiderwoman and the other Avengers were captured and held in a vr prison where they were subjected to torture. Those are the facts, context or not and I regard context as little more than the writers coming up with flimsy excuses to write the scenes out as they wish.

And I think the GS was right to hold to their morals, just as I think the Illuminati are wrong to abandon theirs.

You keep going to these extremes without looking at the context of those situations (even if they are written poorly, and even if you don't necessarily agree), and it's getting frustrating to read your posts.

Also, I still see the Great Society as selfish. Yes, with the Illuminati they're dead....but they were willing to let both universes perish just so they could stay true to their ideals. Their universe should be glad the Illuminati did what they did. And don't bring up the dead people of the GS Earth; yes they were murdered, but their "heroes" were just going to sit back and watch them die anyway.

[Mark]

I think Red Skull has proven that old age isn't gonna do him in anytime soon.

Tyrants can always be overthrown, death not as easily.

[Mark]

Sun God said that they had no ideas; only "hope". He also told Batman that if nothing came to them, then they'd just have to accept their deaths.

They were going to sit back and watch two universes die.

And the Illuminati were going to do the same and they had even given up trying.

[Mark]

Jeez Mark....if this story upsets you that much, then you really should ignore it. Comics are supposed to be fun, even if they're dark or grim in nature.

I start something, I finish it. Been doing things too long like that to stop now. And I still hold out some hope for a twilight zone ending.

[MichaelAngel0]

And the Illuminati were going to do the same and they had even given up trying.

Yes, they did....but I'm in Namor's corner, anyways.

He saved 3 universes when everyone else decided to just give up and die. Like "mewling" children.

[MichaelAngel0]

They don't coincide at all, because one is still trying while the other is giving up. In practicality it might not make a lot of difference if trying results in failure, but in principal at least I would argue it makes a world of difference. Trying at least creates the potential for sucess regardless of whether that sucess is actually achieved or not, while giving up essentially gurantees failure.

My biggest criticism of the Illuminati in NA 23 was NOT that they failed to find a means of stopping the incursions. Rather it was they didn't even try. They just gave up. And I don't think Hickman was potraying the Great Society in that manner at all. The difference was hope.

That's the thing tho: the GS weren't trying to stop the incursion. Yes the fought the Illuminati, but if they never showed up the GS were just fine in letting their universe be destroyed.

[hawkeyefan]

They don't coincide at all, because one is still trying while the other is giving up. In practicality it might not make a lot of difference if trying results in failure, but in principal at least I would argue it makes a world of difference. Trying at least creates the potential for sucess regardless of whether that sucess is actually achieved or not, while giving up essentially gurantees failure.

My biggest criticism of the Illuminati in NA 23 was NOT that they failed to find a means of stopping the incursions. Rather it was they didn't even try. They just gave up. And I don't think Hickman was potraying the Great Society in that manner at all. The difference was hope.

I get that . But at what point would the characters have to be at with their futile hope for you to then view resignation as an acceptable outcome?

If after killing 14 Earths, Namor stepped forward and said "I cannot do this anymore", you wouldn't understand that?

I start something, I finish it. Been doing things too long like that to stop now. And I still hold out some hope for a twilight zone ending.

Fair enough. I didn't mean for that to sound like a "don't like it don't read it" type of comment....I genuinely meant if it distresses you that much, maybe you'd be better off without it. I only say that because your posts seem to hint that you take all this stuff very seriously, beyond how people typically hold their forms of entertainment.

So if I came across wrong, then I'm sorry for that.

[Mark]

I get that . But at what point would the characters have to be at with their futile hope for you to then view resignation as an acceptable outcome?

If after killing 14 Earths, Namor stepped forward and said "I cannot do this anymore", you wouldn't understand that?



Fair enough. I didn't mean for that to sound like a "don't like it don't read it" type of comment....I genuinely meant if it distresses you that much, maybe you'd be better off without it. I only say that because your posts seem to hint that you take all this stuff very seriously, beyond how people typically hold their forms of entertainment.

So if I came across wrong, then I'm sorry for that.

Don't feel bad, there is a ton more bad stuff going on in my life right now and that's not helping with this tale, but I don't give up.

Funny everyone says that the GS were only hoping, as I recall in AvX it was nearly all about Hope. What if it turns out that their hope was actually another heavy hitter who hadn't shown up yet?