Game of Thrones

[Da Boat]

For TV series continuity,it was logical to remove Baelish.His machinations couldn't work with all the Starks together,especially with Bran and Arya and their skills.Cercei as the last human villain was a result of Lannister popularity plus Jaime arc of turning against Cercei influence and stupidity.

But for book continuity,i hope Baelish is the last human villain to meet his demise,only because it was his machinations that started the game of thrones(as a race for the Iron Throne)and he should be that last to meet his demise.Although,i have a feeling that Euron could shurpass him,especially the book version who is boarderline Dark Lord.

Even for the television, I mean sure all the Stark kids are there but he did make the save in the Battle of the Bastards with the Vale. And it's not like everybody talked to each other to make the connections. The war would have been lost without him and Ramsey Bolton would still run the place. I also thought it was too convenient that Sansa came up with all the accusations by herself out of the blue.

[Confuzzled]

Even for the television, I mean sure all the Stark kids are there but he did make the save in the Battle of the Bastards with the Vale. And it's not like everybody talked to each other to make the connections. The war would have been lost without him and Ramsey Bolton would still run the place. I also thought it was too convenient that Sansa came up with all the accusations by herself out of the blue.

It was not out of the blue. She always knew but she did not have the power to act on it before. Heck, at the end of Season 4 she had decided to actually side Baelish by lying for him regarding Lyssa's murder. But he rewarded her for it by marrying her off to a sadistic rapist and abuser. She was desperate so she had to still rely on his help to reclaim Winterfell, but once Bran notified her that he was involved in Ned's downfall, all bets were off and it was finally time to get rid of the unpredictable element present. Baelish didn't help himself by behaving true to form and trying to manipulate her against Arya.

[JBatmanFan05]

The show thus far did basically force the Baelish situation into a corner, necessitating his death. The Stark reunion, where they continue to live, especially with Bran, would have been a bit ridiculous and credibility shattering with Petyr alive. Varys and his knowledge about Petyr also posed some risk of head scratching.

The foremost reason I wished Petyr hadn't died and still wish that is that I just don't find Cersei as compelling as the main human villain. Baelish represented the evils of "the game" the most and started all this and I just felt him also ending with the series would be more fitting. (We'll see what GRRM does with Lord Baelish in the books)

[Confuzzled]

Cersei will probably be the last human villain left even in the books due to the POV chapter structure and because her death will close out the King's Landing/Lannister vs. Stark aspects. Littlefinger would go before her but the show accelerated his doom as a result of combining the Sansa/Fake Arya plotlines which speeded up Sansa's arc. My theory is if the show had remained faithful to the books, by this point Sansa/Baelish would probably still be stuck in The Vale.

[JBatmanFan05]

the show accelerated his doom

Yea, that's very likely true. That gives GRRM some room to perhaps craft a more interesting end for Petyr, perhaps much nearer the end of Martin's story...assuming Petyr dies at all (he very probably will, but you never really know).

[Da Boat]

The show thus far did basically force the Baelish situation into a corner, necessitating his death. The Stark reunion, where they continue to live, especially with Bran, would have been a bit ridiculous and credibility shattering with Petyr alive. Varys and his knowledge about Petyr also posed some risk of head scratching.

The foremost reason I wished Petyr hadn't died and still wish that is that I just don't find Cersei as compelling as the main human villain. Baelish represented the evils of "the game" the most and started all this and I just felt him also ending with the series would be more fitting. (We'll see what GRRM does with Lord Baelish in the books)

Exactly. I think they painted Baelish in a corner. And the only person that should have put him down with all the know-how and knowledge he had is Varys.

It's like Baelish became the dumbest guy on the show cause it was convenient, not cause the others were that smart. I mean Arya never wanted to become "Lady of Winterfell". When he said that to Sansa I was like WTF is this?

Then the trial occured and Sansa is like "you killed my aunt". Yea to help you, Sansa. "You poisoned my uncle" no proof. "You betrayed my mother" in what way? Even when Bran said "I told you to not trust me, Ned" could have be interpretated in many ways. Baelish was bad but it was a weak trial. If you're gonna defeat someone then make it worth the while.

[Confuzzled]

Exactly. I think they painted Baelish in a corner. And the only person that should have put him down with all the know-how and knowledge he had is Varys.

It's like Baelish became the dumbest guy on the show cause it was convenient, not cause the others were that smart. I mean Arya never wanted to become "Lady of Winterfell". When he said that to Sansa I was like WTF is this?

Then the trial occured and Sansa is like "you killed my aunt". Yea to help you, Sansa. "You poisoned my uncle" no proof. "You betrayed my mother" in what way? Even when Bran said "I told you to not trust me, Ned" could have be interpretated in many ways. Baelish was bad but it was a weak trial. If you're gonna defeat someone then make it worth the while.

Baelish underestimated Sansa and assumed she was as insecure and jealous of her sister as Lysa was of hers, so he thought she would buy the "Lady of Winterfell" bit. He felt threatened with Arya and Bran there so he desperately needed to get rid of at least one of them. He had been observing the Sansa/Arya relationship since Season 1 so he knew there was a bit of animosity there, which he related to the animosity between Lysa and Catelyn, so he tried to exploit it.

He killed Lysa for his own ends lol. Sansa knew that but she nevertheless sided with him initially by lying to the Lords and Ladies of the Vale to defend him. He then... sold her to the Boltons. All bets were off at that point. Lysa told her she had poisoned Lord Arryn on Littlefinger's instructions. Bran probably told Sansa and Arya in detail how Littlefinger betrayed Ned and then co-conspired with Tywin Lannister to assassinate Robb and Catelyn at the Red Wedding. Arya was there at Harrenhal so she would have known Bran was speaking the truth.

There was nothing unbelievable about the scenario. The only way Baelish would survive longer were if Sansa and he had stayed away from the other Starks as long as possible. Despite some fans complaining about combining the Sansa/Fake Arya storylines, people would be whining much more if Sansa's "training" in The Vale took three seasons. The show had no choice but to make that change to maintain the pace. People were complaining about the "slowness" of Dany's storyline in Meereen as it was, even though that too was hurried up compared to the books.

[JBatmanFan05]

It's like Baelish became the dumbest guy on the show cause it was convenient, not cause the others were that smart.

I can kinda see that, though the show does emphasize that everyone, even the smartest, misjudges some people (Tywin misjudged Tyrion, Cersei misjudged High Sparrow and almost everyone, Olenna misjudged Cersei, etc, etc). Petyr subtly threatened Cersei that one time and she almost executed him on the spot. What I'm trying to say is that the show has established some fallibility and weakness for Petyr, some blindspots. So was he suddenly dumb or did it fit more of a preestablished pattern?

I don't think it gets talked about enough, but I think a big theme with Petyr was how his "lack of name" situation (not being of one of the great houses) forced the uber ambitious him into very risky alliances like with the Starks. All his money and smarts couldn't afford him the one thing he needed the most: an army that'd die for him and/or his name. His partial blindness to the goody two shoesness of the Starks was so fatal because he too desperately needed them (and their army) so much to begin with, being so low a noble, so unloved. The show has talked about the "right name" and I don't think fans realize how much that factored into Petyr's fall (in both love and power).

For me, imagining Baelish's likely ideal dream...King Baelish on the Iron Throne riding on his name alone...seems impossible. He just couldn't have forced that or maintained it for long. The show has done a surprisingly effective job of conveying the (medieval) power of names. You can't be a nobody and rule without something like dragons to build your name or an ideological movement or etc.

[Emperor-of-Dragons]

Despite some fans complaining about combining the Sansa/Fake Arya storylines, people would be whining much more if Sansa's "training" in The Vale took three seasons. The show had no choice but to make that change to maintain the pace. People were complaining about the "slowness" of Dany's storyline in Meereen as it was, even though that too was hurried up compared to the books.

The Walking Dead TV show has the very same conundrum when it comes to keeping things or not keeping things from the source material for the sake of pace. Some criticisms are just kinda unavoidable. And like i said elsewhere we still don't know what the hell GRRM plan on doing in this situation.

[Johnny Peril]

Am I the only one who thinks Cersei survives this?

[Da Boat]

I can kinda see that, though the show does emphasize that everyone, even the smartest, misjudges some people (Tywin misjudged Tyrion, Cersei misjudged High Sparrow and almost everyone, Olenna misjudged Cersei, etc, etc). Petyr subtly threatened Cersei that one time and she almost executed him on the spot. What I'm trying to say is that the show has established some fallibility and weakness for Petyr, some blindspots. So was he suddenly dumb or did it fit more of a preestablished pattern?

But that was with Cersei who is almost as devious as him.

I don't think it gets talked about enough, but I think a big theme with Petyr was how his "lack of name" situation (not being of one of the great houses) forced the uber ambitious him into very risky alliances like with the Starks. All his money and smarts couldn't afford him the one thing he needed the most: an army that'd die for him and/or his name. His partial blindness to the goody two shoesness of the Starks was so fatal because he too desperately needed them (and their army) so much to begin with, being so low a noble, so unloved. The show has talked about the "right name" and I don't think fans realize how much that factored into Petyr's fall (in both love and power).

For me, imagining Baelish's likely ideal dream...King Baelish on the Iron Throne riding on his name alone...seems impossible. He just couldn't have forced that or maintained it for long. The show has done a surprisingly effective job of conveying the (medieval) power of names. You can't be a nobody and rule without something like dragons to build your name or an ideological movement or etc.

But you can rule that when all the names are not there anymore. Baelish in his "Chaos is a Ladder" speach basically said I can rule over the corpses of the fallen.

Which will likely be the case after the Walkers' onslaught.

Imagine an alternate World where Dany is pregnant and the baby boy pops out and the Night King arrives and still alive Baelish gives the baby to the Night King to strike a new deal between the living and the dead. Dany cries and doesn't want it but is powerless to stop it. By doing that Baelish gets territorial power from the Night King. The Queen of Dragons has her offspring given to the Night King uniting Fire + Ice. The Song of Ice & Fire. So the prince that was promised united the World. Thanks to Petr.

[daBronzeBomma]

So ... Season 8 in 2019.

6 episodes, each one will be be increasingly longer than the last (and the first episode is rumored to be longer than the S7 finale).

If one would be so bold, one could compare Westeros' Great War in Season 8 with our own world's Great War (WWII), especially if the Night King's undead army's invading the North can be linked to the Hitler's Nazi army invading Poland in 1939.

Perhaps each episode of S8 will play out like each year of WWII.

S8E1 - Sept 1939 through Aug 1940

S8E2 - Sept 1940 through Aug 1941

S8E3 - Sept 1941 through Aug 1942 (expect a new and significant, formerly isolated, combatant to enter the arena sometime at this point)

S8E4 - Sept 1942 through Aug 1943

S8E5 - Sept 1943 through Aug 1944

S8E6 - Sept 1944 through Aug 1945 (ends in a bang)

I mean, D&D know that GRRM is a big history buff. Just sayin'

[Da Boat]

Baelish underestimated Sansa and assumed she was as insecure and jealous of her sister as Lysa was of hers, so he thought she would buy the "Lady of Winterfell" bit. He felt threatened with Arya and Bran there so he desperately needed to get rid of at least one of them. He had been observing the Sansa/Arya relationship since Season 1 so he knew there was a bit of animosity there, which he related to the animosity between Lysa and Catelyn, so he tried to exploit it.

I don't buy it. Sure he wanted to some day get rid of Arya but Baelish plays the long game. This wasn't the time.

He killed Lysa for his own ends lol. Sansa knew that but she nevertheless sided with him initially by lying to the Lords and Ladies of the Vale to defend him. He then... sold her to the Boltons. All bets were off at that point. Lysa told her she had poisoned Lord Arryn on Littlefinger's instructions. Bran probably told Sansa and Arya in detail how Littlefinger betrayed Ned and then co-conspired with Tywin Lannister to assassinate Robb and Catelyn at the Red Wedding. Arya was there at Harrenhal so she would have known Bran was speaking the truth.

That's a lot of filling to blank for the show's sakes to me.

There was nothing unbelievable about the scenario. The only way Baelish would survive longer were if Sansa and he had stayed away from the other Starks as long as possible. Despite some fans complaining about combining the Sansa/Fake Arya storylines, people would be whining much more if Sansa's "training" in The Vale took three seasons. The show had no choice but to make that change to maintain the pace. People were complaining about the "slowness" of Dany's storyline in Meereen as it was, even though that too was hurried up compared to the books.

Yes it's unbelievable cause we are talking about Little Finger here. I don't think Baelish could have worried about Arya cause she's just a kid with a list and has no knowledge about anything. Bran said next to nothing other than the Ned line.

About the Vale, what they should have done was right after Sansa saves Petr, Baelish is love struck, go to her room and jump on her bones and they make love. Then they go into S & M games where he whips her and she whips him. This does two things, it insure that her first born will be his and then prepares her for the roughness of Ramsey.

Then remember he says to her about Ramsey to own your situation and make the boy your plaything. The moment she notice that Roose continue to tease Ramsey that his wife is pregnant and that it's gonna be a boy, Sansa could have used that to put father and son against one another. Sansa send a raven to Baelish. Then not long after Roose said he just got a boy to Ramsey, Sansa come behind him and slash his throat with Baelish's knife. At this point Ramsey becomes Sansa's bitch, he is in awe of what she just did. She can do what the Hell she wants. So she doesn't have to escape, she is the Queen of the house.

When the Battle of the Bastards happens, she is already in Winterfell all alone when her husband is on the field, all she has to do is send a raven to Littlefinger for the Vale to save the day. And there's none of that "oh why didn't Sansa mention the Knights of the Vale?" to Jon business.

Baelish is the savior, she jumps in his arms and they marry each other when Jon is gone to meet Dany.

But Sansa eventually kills Littlefinger at the end of GoT when he is about to kill Jon.

[Confuzzled]

I don't buy it. Sure he wanted to some day get rid of Arya but Baelish plays the long game. This wasn't the time.

The only reason someone "cannot buy it" is if they are hellbent on not wanting to buy it. Arya was literally holding the dagger that he had given Bran. It would have freaked him out, especially since he was in her home. And playing the long game doesn't mean delaying the deaths of immediate threats. He got Lord Arryn, Ned, Roz, Robb & Catelyn, Joffrey, the jester guy and Lysa out of the way when they proved too threatening to associate with (in the case of Roz and Lysa) or when he needed them to die (the others). When she visited his brothel, even Olenna knew there was a chance Littlefinger could off her if he suspected she would reveal his involvement in Joffrey's murder, hence she immediately threatened him with the repercussions.

That's a lot of filling to blank for the show's sakes to me.

People seemed to fill it just fine.

Yes it's unbelievable cause we are talking about Little Finger here. I don't think Baelish could have worried about Arya cause she's just a kid with a list and has no knowledge about anything. Bran said next to nothing other than the Ned line.

So you are saying Littlefinger would be dumb enough to underestimate Arya because she is a child while arguing he's too smart to go down like this? And uh, how does one not freak out when Bran basically says he knows you played a part in his father's death?

About the Vale, what they should have done was right after Sansa saves Petr, Baelish is love struck, go to her room and jump on her bones and they make love. Then they go into S & M games where he whips her and she whips him. This does two things, it insure that her first born will be his and then prepares her for the roughness of Ramsey.

And how was he going to prove the child was his exactly? And even if he somehow could, it was still a bastard and the Lords and Ladies of the Vale would have definitely turned on him if they had known he was sexually manipulating Sansa. They barely controlled themselves from executing him after Lysa's death, simply because Sansa testified that he had her best interests in mind.

Then remember he says to her about Ramsey to own your situation and make the boy your plaything. The moment she notice that Roose continue to tease Ramsey that his wife is pregnant and that it's gonna be a boy, Sansa could have used that to put father and son against one another. Sansa send a raven to Baelish. Then not long after Roose said he just got a boy to Ramsey, Sansa come behind him and slash his throat with Baelish's knife. At this point Ramsey becomes Sansa's bitch, he is in awe of what she just did. She can do what the Hell she wants. So she doesn't have to escape, she is the Queen of the house.

Um, how is this supposed to work with Ramsay being... Ramsay?

When the Battle of the Bastards happens, she is already in Winterfell all alone when her husband is on the field, all she has to do is send a raven to Littlefinger for the Vale to save the day. And there's none of that "oh why didn't Sansa mention the Knights of the Vale?" to Jon business.

I don't think she expected Littlefinger to actually turn up. He had already burnt her before.

Baelish is the savior, she jumps in his arms and they marry each other when Jon is gone to meet Dany.

Lol no. She despised him by Season 6 and was forced to call him for aid only because the other Northern Houses were unwilling to. And I highly doubt the Lords of the Vale and the Stark allegiants would have supported Baelish marrying Sansa. Sansa realized that even if she had Baelish executed, the Lords of the Vale would still support the Starks, probably even moreso as they never liked him to begin with.

But Sansa eventually kills Littlefinger at the end of GoT when he is about to kill Jon.

Again... how is Littlefinger the biggest threat to Jon when the White Walkers have invaded the North? Or why would Littlefinger if he even had the slightest shred of intelligence want to kill Jon when he knows he's the best chance they've got against the zombie winter apocalypse? There's literally no reason to keep Baelish around other than for pandering purposes. The only reason he could survive longer in the books is due to the Sansa and Fake Arya/Ramsay plots being completely separate and Littlefinger/Sansa probably still being in The Vale even until A Hope for Spring or whatever the last book is called, if it ever comes out.

[Confuzzled]

Only modification I would have made to the way it played out was make it clear that Bran had "seen" all of Littlefinger's machinations in the past, causing Sansa to accuse Baelish even about his involvement in getting her forcibly married to Tyrion instead of Loras and callously letting her take part of the blame for Joffrey's murder, when he was the one to help orchestrate it.

Bran is a deux machina, but once you have him holed up at the same place as Littlefinger, LF's secrets don't stay buried. It's just unavoidable.