Jean Grey Solo creative team announced

[rutog98]

Why is Storm being brought up here? She has literally nothing to do with Jean's solo announcement.

Thank you! Storm should not be brought up here. They know that I am a Storm fan, so when I raise my concerns about yet another Phoenix Force story with points they cannot refute, they try and rabbit away and bring up Storm. Its a weird and weak strategy. Lets stick to Jean Grey.

One more point I want to make: The Phoenix Force started out as something Jean can wield. Later, it was expanded to her daughter, Rachel, who was in her bloodline with the same powerset of TP/TK. It made sense that Rachel would also be a suitable genetic fit to host it for those reasons. I have said all of this earlier. However, I maintain that the reason the PF thing got so convoluted is because writers could not let it go and come up with fresh ideas. Therefore, in Excalibur, we learn that there have been MANY hosts to the PF. This is further established during Morrison's run. Finally, AvX does away completely with any notion that only some people can host the PF. So, what started out as a "Jean" thing and then a "Jean/Rachel" thing on the account of Rachel being Jean's daughter and sharing her genes was totally wiped away because writers had to keep coming up with Phoenix stories to tell and theconfines that were there originally were too restricting. It just proves my point, yet again, that the whole Phoenix Force thing is tired. They ran out of Jean/Phoenix and Rachel/Phoenix stories, so they just said, "We'll have it so anybody can wield the PF," and they rode that horse into the ground...and are still trying to ride a dead horse...

[cranger]

Guggenheim really recognized it when he did his stint on the all female X-Men book. Rachel was the center of that story and she went after a group of Shi'ar for killing off her family. The reason the Shi'ar killed her family is because they feared a future member being born to host the PF. They thought it was something unique to her bloodline. She was quick to correct them on their error in bringing up how the PF manifested in 5 individuals who had no relation to the Grey bloodline in AvX.

The Phoenix Force is not to Jean Grey what the hammer is to Thor. The hammer imbues people with the power of Thor. The Phoenix Force augments a person's natural power to cosmic proportions and adds to their powerset those that are innate to the Phoenix Force itself. Jean's powers are TP and TK. Her powers do not come from the PF. Also, again, the PF is a sentient being separate from the person of Jean Grey. It is as old as creation while Jean is a woman in her 20s. The hammer was made specifically for Thor. The function of the PF is it is essentially the "big bang" as its the spark that ignites creation and the flame that will ultimately consume it. That role of the PF was its function from the very beginning and has nothing to do with Jean Grey who came along trillions and trillions of years after the creation of the PF. To make this comparison between Jean/Phoenix and Thor and his hammer is beyond a reach.

You may be 100% accurate in your explanation of recent stories, don't think I am arguing your facts, because I am not. I am saying they really don't matter.

The PF is always going to be whatever it needs to be for the current story. Don't hold on to any particular comment, especially in a side book, because it is likely to change at some point. There are plenty of large stories that treat Jean and Phoenix as the same, that were written when it was a relevant concept, that seem hard to dismiss just because some writer decided Rachel should snap back at people who have been hounding her and based that on some freak event in a craptastically written event book.

Also, you are missing two big points with the hammer. For one, by trying to show the differences you really illustrate just how similar they are. Do they imbue different powers? Of course they do. But they imbue powers. Thor/Jean is still a god/mutant without the hammer/PF. Someone with the hammer/PF can wield it's powers. While the hammer was made specifically for Thor to wield, the myth is that there was no host before Jean (again, horrible event book being ignored).

The second point, and I know you are going to come back with some reference to AvX, is that 95% of people don't care about trying to define the PF outside of Jean. They see it as her thing. Marvel could (and probably has) write that the hammer has existed since the beginning of time too, that would not change people seeing it as belonging to Thor (Odinson).

People see Jean and Phoenix as forever intertwined. No amount of digging up obscure stories will change that.

[rutog98]

You may be 100% accurate in your explanation of recent stories, don't think I am arguing your facts, because I am not. I am saying they really don't matter.

The PF is always going to be whatever it needs to be for the current story. Don't hold on to any particular comment, especially in a side book, because it is likely to change at some point. There are plenty of large stories that treat Jean and Phoenix as the same, that were written when it was a relevant concept, that seem hard to dismiss just because some writer decided Rachel should snap back at people who have been hounding her and based that on some freak event in a craptastically written event book.

Also, you are missing two big points with the hammer. For one, by trying to show the differences you really illustrate just how similar they are. Do they imbue different powers? Of course they do. But they imbue powers. Thor/Jean is still a god/mutant without the hammer/PF. Someone with the hammer/PF can wield it's powers. While the hammer was made specifically for Thor to wield, the myth is that there was no host before Jean (again, horrible event book being ignored).

The second point, and I know you are going to come back with some reference to AvX, is that 95% of people don't care about trying to define the PF outside of Jean. They see it as her thing. Marvel could (and probably has) write that the hammer has existed since the beginning of time too, that would not change people seeing it as belonging to Thor (Odinson).

People see Jean and Phoenix as forever intertwined. No amount of digging up obscure stories will change that.

Except I am not digging up obscure stories. The fact that there were many hosts to the PF prior to Jean and Jean/Rachel are not the only suitable people to host the PF was a prominant fixture of the Excalibur run. It was highlighted in a big way in Morrison's run, and AvX is hardly obscure as that is one of Marvel's major crossover events.

Again, Thor's hammer was created specifically for Thor. The Phoenix Force came into existence at the beginning of the creation of the universe trillions and trillions of years before Jean was even born. Its function has nothing to do with Jean Grey either. Its cosmic purpose is to perpetuate the cycle of the birth, death, and rebirth of the universe. Jean, obviously, has nothing to do with that as she was not around for the big bang that was the genesis of the PF. She's just a TP/TK mutant in her 20s who happened to be a suitable host for the PF...and later that fact changed as now anybody is a suitable host for the PF. This birth, death, rebirth of the universe was the PF's reason to be from the start of creation trillions and trillions of years before anybody ever said "Jean Grey". Again, this comparison you are making between Jean/Phoenix Force and Thor/hammer is a reach.

[Wiccan]

Again, Thor's hammer was created specifically for Thor.

Actually, from what the last retcon says, it wasn't. But yeah, it's a reach, because it's just an anology, not a totally serious comparison that you have to bring all the details about it.

[rutog98]

Actually, from what the last retcon says, it wasn't. But yeah, it's a reach, because it's just an anology, not a totally serious comparison that you have to bring all the details about it.

Look, what is the inscription on Thor's hammer? Its goes something like, "He who is worthy to lift this hammer will be imbued with the power of Thor", right? He who hosts the Phoenix Force is imbued with the power of the Phoenix Force while their own natural abilities are boosted to cosmic levels. Their possession by the Phoenix Force has nothing to do with Jean Grey or her powers or anything like that.

[vasir12]

So Jean's book sounds like it'll be good, guys.

[rutog98]

So Jean's book sounds like it'll be good, guys.

It doesn't sound like it will have much appeal to many people outside of die hard Jean and Phoenix Force fans. I just don't want this Phoenix Force stuff to bleed into the other titles as I am tired of it. My concern is that it will. They just can't seem to come up with new material.

[Wiccan]

Look, what is the inscription on Thor's hammer? Its goes something like, "He who is worthy to lift this hammer will be imbued with the power of Thor", right? He who hosts the Phoenix Force is imbued with the power of the Phoenix Force while their own natural abilities are boosted to cosmic levels. Their possession by the Phoenix Force has nothing to do with Jean Grey or her powers or anything like that.

Phoenix did chose to help Jean at first because of her power, and she's considered the true Phoenix avatar. But that's because the Phoenix has it's own personality and conscience.

[vasir12]

It doesn't sound like it will have much appeal to many people outside of die hard Jean and Phoenix Force fans. I just don't want this Phoenix Force stuff to bleed into the other titles as I am tired of it. My concern is that it will. They just can't seem to come up with new material.

It won'r be about the Phoenix force, though. It's about Jean growing up.

[Wiccan]

It won'r be about the Phoenix force, though. It's about Jean growing up.

Yeah. The Phoenix will probably be more of a background theme, used to make the rest of the plot happen.

[cranger]

Again, this comparison you are making between Jean/Phoenix Force and Thor/hammer is a reach.

Sorry, you just keep trying to argue details that just don't matter. For one, because any writer can come along and change them at any time, and two, because to the vast majority of readers, those distinctions don't matter. Jean and the Phoenix are tied together.

Also, if you really want to keep bringing up these references, none of the dispute Death's reveal that Jean and the Phoenix are linked beyond that of just a host. You can come up with as many previous hosts as you want (although you have come up with 0 at this point), that just means other people have possessed some fragment of the power at some point. None of them were tied to the PF anywhere near how Jean and the PF have existed together, as way too many stories have gone out of their way to illustrate that connection.

[vasir12]

Yeah. The Phoenix will probably be more of a background theme, used to make the rest of the plot happen.

Right. It's more of a plot primer for her o have an adventure. I think someone made the analogy of it being like Avatar where Aang had to master the four elements before the Firelord did some stuff.

[rutog98]

Phoenix did chose to help Jean at first because of her power, and she's the considered the true Phoenix avatar. But that's because the Phoenix has it's own personality and conscience.

Okay, Jean was considered its one true avatar at first (and it should have stayed that way with Rachel being the only exception to this on account of being Jean's daughter), but that quickly changed when writers kept trying to rehash Phoenix stories and ran out of tales to tell with the Grey bloodline and so had to have other people be Phoenix hosts. This is a trend that started in Excalibur and has only gotten worse through the present day. Therefore, as I keep saying, there is really no story anymore you can tell with the Phoenix Force and Jean Grey that you can't tell with any other person out there standing in for Jean. Since we already have Jean/Phoenix stories, this reality that anybody can host the PF nullifies the purpose in doing anymore Jean/Phoenix stories.

By the way, you guys, I am being fair, here. My complaint about rehashing Grey/Summer stories is a complaint I levelled at the Storm solo title in that it just rehashed her greatest hits of the 80s (Callisto, Forge, Yukio, etc). In Storm's case, though (because people keep bringing her into this), there is so much more about the character to explore (as I have outlined in my rebuttle to Storm detractors in this thread) that should have been delved into rather than simply rehashing her old stories which are tired. I don't want to change this thread into a Storm discussion, but I just want to show that I am fair in my criticisms. In Jean's case, I honestly that is a well long run dry of new stories to tell.

[rutog98]

Sorry, you just keep trying to argue details that just don't matter. For one, because any writer can come along and change them at any time, and two, because to the vast majority of readers, those distinctions don't matter. Jean and the Phoenix are tied together.

Also, if you really want to keep bringing up these references, none of the dispute Death's reveal that Jean and the Phoenix are linked beyond that of just a host. You can come up with as many previous hosts as you want (although you have come up with 0 at this point), that just means other people have possessed some fragment of the power at some point. None of them were tied to the PF anywhere near how Jean and the PF have existed together, as way too many stories have gone out of their way to illustrate that connection.

Death did not say that they are one in the sense that you are claiming. If memory serves me right, Death clarified what its meaning in that Jean was destined to wield the PF like King Arthur was destined to wield Excalibur. You can go on and on about trying to argue Jean's "deeper" connection to the PF than other hosts (I don't buy it, but I don't care to argue it), but its a moot point. The salient point is the two are separate, sentient entities each with a will of their own. One's birth stretches back to the very beginning of the creation of the universe while the other was born a mere 20 something years ago. Many Jean fans try and make this whole argument about the Phoenix Force is really just Jean Grey and not an entity in and of itself, but that's just wishful thinking on their part. This is clearly not the case no matter how you look at it. Any claims by writers of the two being the same is completly hyperbolic. That only becomes the case when the PF makes a conscious decision to possess Jean Grey and effectively merge with her. Other than that, they are two very separate entities.

[cranger]

Death did not say that they are one in the sense that you are claiming. If memory serves me right, Death clarified what its meaning in that Jean was destined to wield the PF like King Arthur was destined to wield Excalibur. You can go on and on about trying to argue Jean's "deeper" connection to the PF than other hosts (I don't buy it, but I don't care to argue it), but its a moot point. The salient point is the two are separate, sentient entities each with a will of their own. One's birth stretches back to the very beginning of the creation of the universe while the other was born a mere 20 something years ago. Many Jean fans try and make this whole argument about the Phoenix Force is really just Jean Grey and not an entity in and of itself, but that's just wishful thinking on their part. This is clearly not the case no matter how you look at it. Any claims by writers of the two being the same is completly hyperbolic. That only becomes the case when the PF makes a conscious decision to possess Jean Grey and effectively merge with her. Other than that, they are two very separate entities.

The deeper connection is not moot, it is the point, especially since the most important question with whether a Jean solo should involve the PF is how does the common reader associate Jean and the PF, not how do you specifically see them, or apparently wish them.

All of your talk is based on what some writer wrote somewhere (or, at least, your interpretation as your memory serves you). You cannot then dismiss the work of a writer as hyperbolic. Well, you can, as I am more than willing to dismiss writers in this very discussion, but then you have to accept that you are picking and choosing which writer's works you think fit your view of the PF and Jean.