Would you buy a New 52 Superman book if DC brought him back?

[Miles To Go]

It was flawed to you. For me, and many, many others, it wasn't, and has far deeper meaning and better message that the Lois and Clark relationship.

What message would that be? That it's ok to pine after a married man like Diana did in post-crisis for years? That you should abandon the person you love for someone who makes life easier for you like Diana did to Steve in New 52?

I'm sorry but you cannot keep hanging on to Charles Soule, George Perez, or Frank Miller's contributions to S/WW forever. Plenty of other writers, intentionally or unintentionally, tackled the relationship and only succeeded in demonstrating how toxic Clark and Diana were together.

[Korath]

The message being that two people of equal physical power and superficial beauty who are privileged in the exact same ways are “more suited” to each other than a man loving a woman committed to truth without those physical abilities. The message that Lois is “inferior” to Clark and to Diana because she’s “merely human” and doesn’t have those powers? The message that only heroes who wear capes matter and are truly equals? The message that women are only valuable and inspiring if they have superpowers? That “equality” is that shallow? That “message” is terrible. It doesn’t really matter if it resonates with you. There are a LOT of crappy messages that resonate with people in this world. It’s ok to like problematic things but don’t act like you’ve found some deeper meaning to the franchise that the rest of us are “blind” to because you have not.
.

The message being that peoples of different origins don't have to be ashamed of where they come from, and can still be part of a society different from the one they are born/have roots in, but that it demands hard work and is a constant struggle. And that two peoples facing the same problems can have different solutions : hiding his differences, or proclaiming them for the world to see, but can find something even better for them both. Perhaps it doesn't seem like much to you, but to me, it's a far more powerful message than whatever the Clark and Lois pairing bring to the table. The latter also has good undertones, but they simply aren't that impacting to me. And that's not the only message that the SM/WW series conveyed.

Because it also demonstrated that sharing similarities doesn't mean, at all, that a couple will work, that no matter the origins, no matter the belief, hardships will happen, and some though questions will have to be asked, and worked on. And that's a wonderful message for peoples, especially when so many movies/novels/etc. present love as this peaceful river when you find some "Soulmate" which was destined for all Eternity to be your significant other. Unlike the "Diana/Steve Trevor" where she literally fall in love with the first man she meets. Clark and Diana had their highs and lows, their times of doubts about them, about what they could do, if it was even right to love each other. Something that apparently is forbidden for the Clois, considering the amount of negative reactions to Action Comics 1004.

I also fail to see why Wonder Woman or Superman would have to be tied down by the other in such a pairing. They can have solo and complementary adventures. Yes, it require more efforts from the part of creators to do so, and they may not want to do so in the main Universe. I'm fine with it now, since clearly, it is far better appreciated in the Superman corner of the DCU than elsewhere. But an Elseworld series about them, building on the foundations laid down during New 52, would be a beautiful opportunity. Instead, DC has been so intent of erasing this time from the very comics that Diana and Clark interactions feel utterly fake and cold since Rebirth started, even after Reborn.

I would also like for you to abstain about spouting blatant lies such as the idea that I support misogynistic ideas. We already had this discussion some months ago, I think (it may have been with another poster, but I doubt it). I'ma feminist, but clearly I don't share your brand of feminism, and that's fine. I would like to have cordial discussions, but I will never let anyone passively-aggressively insult me because I what I see in comics where they don't.

It's probably not your intention, but it comes across as such, and I think I needed to say it. You don't need to change anything in your posts (previous or future). I just wanted to spell it out.

[HeroVladimir93]

DC might advertise New 52 Superman as their equivalent to Ultimate Spider-Man; but that would be unnecessary, as they already have an Ultimate equivalent in the form of Superman: Earth One. I might read New 52 Superman out of curiosity, but I don't want DC to promote him at the expense of the primary Superman; or worse, replace the primary Superman with the New 52 version, which would invalidate the last 2 years of stories.

[Last Son of Krypton]

You know what that saddest part about Injustice is? Their universe actually looks pretty cool if Superman hadn't turned evil. It's kind of like "Ha! Ha! Here's this really cool universe but you don't get to have it because your favorite character is a villain!" It's like rubbing salt in the wound. I don't think bringing back the New 52 Superman would be as awkward as people think it would. Marvel has a Spider-Man Renew Your Vows ongoing for people who liked the marriage. They understood there was an audience for people who liked the marriage and gave them their own universe. Why can't they do that for New 52? Would it sell as well as the main books? Probably not. But could it stand on it's own as a title? That depends on the fans. If we're willing to support it, then yes. We already have things like Earth One. No reason to believe that New 52 couldn't co-exist alongside the main universe. It could be DC's Ultimates line.

Maybe a New52 inspired Superman would work better in a limited format like that of Earth One or a miniseries like those under the BL inprint instead of an ongoing.

[Miles To Go]

Maybe a New52 inspired Superman would work better in a limited format like that of Earth One or a miniseries like those under the BL inprint instead of an ongoing.

Black Label would just give them an excuse to make Nuperman even more of a prick than he was at his apex.

[misslane]

Korath, I could never connect with the great things you are ascribing to the SM/WW romance because ultimately the message seems to be one that bends towards isolation rather than integration. Instead of developing positive relationships that demonstrate a healthy and positive connection with people who are so different from them, Superman and Wonder Woman choose only to rely on each other. Their canon relationships with Steve and Lois, on the other hand, demand storytelling that celebrates empathy and acceptance. To me, that's not just the better story, it's the better story for Superman, Wonder Woman, and superheroes in general.

[rpmaluki]

Black Label would just give them an excuse to make Nuperman even more of a prick than he was at his apex.

I can see that happening and I would hate that as I hated reading it towards the end of N52. I absolutely hate a Superman that's a prick. I can deal with headstrong like we got at the beginning not what we got at the end.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I really can't see how any adventure of the New 52 Superman could be a functioning part of the amalgamation without being so changed that they are basically other events and stories.

This is actually kind of unfortunately ironic, since this is exactly what Pre-Flashpoint fans had to deal with during the New 52. I mean, do you think that fans liked being presented with that exact scenario, trying to find a way to fit in all the different events that DC was telling us "still happened" but we all knew couldn't have still happened in any recognizable fashion?

[rpmaluki]

Also why should Lois, the actual female lead of the franchise, be shoved to an AU status? That’s ridiculous.

I find stories that purposefully do this difficult to read. These two character are synonymous to each other no matter how you write them. They are integral parts of each other's lives so to force one out of the way, and often not naturally to sell a different narrative, it can only last for so long. Call it ancient, traditional or some other dull descriptor, it still won't change that Lois is very important to the Superman story, just as Superman matters to the Lois story. I read N52 and Earth One and I get exploring different relationships, my understanding is that they are and will always lead up to THE relationship with Lois. They exist only for a limited time and that's okay. You can't honestly call Lois stale without calling Clark stale and I do know that THAT is certainly not true.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

Also why should Lois, the actual female lead of the franchise, be shoved to an AU status? That’s ridiculous.

The message being that two people of equal physical power and superficial beauty who are privileged in the exact same ways are “more suited” to each other than a man loving a woman committed to truth without those physical abilities. The message that Lois is “inferior” to Clark and to Diana because she’s “merely human” and doesn’t have those powers? The message that only heroes who wear capes matter and are truly equals? The message that women are only valuable and inspiring if they have superpowers? That “equality” is that shallow? That “message” is terrible. It doesn’t really matter if it resonates with you. There are a LOT of crappy messages that resonate with people in this world. It’s ok to like problematic things but don’t act like you’ve found some deeper meaning to the franchise that the rest of us are “blind” to because you have not.

And, again, you can try all you want to try and strip Lois of her place in this 80 year old story by referring to her as “ancient” and calling it “dumbness” (which isn’t a word btw) but it doesn’t change that the consistent act of trying to remove Lois of her rightful place in this story as the only other person to debut in Action #1 is misogyny. You don’t have to ::like:. Her. No one said you had to. But that doesn’t actually mean that she’s the one that needs to go away. Not when it’s her story too.

And I disagree that Superman/WW has proven it could survive as long as Lois and Clark has. Because you are talking about the complete break down of two separate franchises with two, frankly, different messages. Wonder Woman was not created to be the female :artner:: for Superman. You mistake her creation as a female ::analogue:: of Superman designed to fill the same narrative space with a vastly differing message about power with contrast. These two characters do not compliment and contrast each other enough long term to sustain what Lois and Clark have sustained. And it does Wonder Woman zero favors to want her tied to a man’s myth like that long term when she has her own story to tell that has absolutely nothing to do with and is often straight up hindered by the presence of a Kryptonian with equal physical strength.

Does this mean you can’t like what you like? Of course not. Knock yourself out with fanfic and whenever and the occasional AU the way millions of other shippers do. But you aren’t going to make a convincing argument that Lois Lane is what’s “holding back Superman” because the numbers not only do not support that but no one has time for that kind of blatant misogyny directed at either Lois or Wonder Woman.

I very much agree with these posts. Clark and Lois are one of the great romances in fiction.....why undermine Lois for a character who’s from a different corner of the dcu? It’s just bad worldbuilding.

[Jackalope89]

I very much agree with these posts. Clark and Lois are one of the great romances in fiction.....why undermine Lois for a character who’s from a different corner of the dcu? It’s just bad worldbuilding.

And the same for Diana and Steve.

Its why I've become so opposed to the Trinity dating and such. The three just have such different mythos, that shoving one into the other for that kind of thing would be ignoring that character's own mythos and ruining the other's.

Brief crossovers, and working together in Justice League is fine. Bruce the Detective, Clark the alien, and Diana the mystic (now much more literal than before). Keep them as close friends. But not as romance options for one another.

[superduperman]

This is actually kind of unfortunately ironic, since this is exactly what Pre-Flashpoint fans had to deal with during the New 52. I mean, do you think that fans liked being presented with that exact scenario, trying to find a way to fit in all the different events that DC was telling us "still happened" but we all knew couldn't have still happened in any recognizable fashion?

And there were plenty of people who liked the pre-Crsis Superman who didn't like having THEIR Superman taken from them. The fanbase has been divided for over 30 years. And I don't know if there is any way to patch it back together. Superman fans may forever be divided. Including the people who control him by the look of it.

[Kuwagaton]

Isn't that two different characters, not the same character but with two versions Co existing.

You're right. I was drawing a blank for a 1:1, but that was before Renew Your Vows came up. Although it outsold some books that are still going, having the "real" Spider-Man didn't set it apart from any other spin-offs. And of course there was the Ultimate line, but that pretty much lived on the main line being in a slump.

Johns never supported New 52. I don't think that's a secret at this point. If he was put in charge of "merging" the two Supermen, I'm not surprised it was handled slap dash. Someone on here a while back posted something about going to a con not long after Rebirth was initiated and said that the people at the DC booth said the "real" Superman was back so obviously Johns wasn't the only one at DC who hated New 52. There clearly was no love lost when it went away among many of the people who worked there. New 52 seems to be Didio's baby and there appear to be two factions at DC. Pro-reboot and anti-reboot. Johns is clearly in the anti-reboot camp. That's neither here nor there in terms of this but if he was put in charge of merging the two Supermen, it's not surprising it was handled in a "Nuperman was killed on the way back to his home planet" type of way.

"Hate" is a specific and strong term. Aside from not having any quotes where Johns implies strongly disliking the New 52, you're talking about the guy who wrote Flashpoint, the New 52 JL, and took over Superman volume 3 when it needed a big name. It's easy to say he didn't like the diminishing returns on the New 52 since the numbers on pretty much everything returned to pre-flashpoint levels within a few years despite a parade of gimmicks and tie-ins, because no one who is that critical to the publishing line and beyond at Warner/DC or any company wants to see the same or worse numbers years later.

Korath, I could never connect with the great things you are ascribing to the SM/WW romance because ultimately the message seems to be one that bends towards isolation rather than integration. Instead of developing positive relationships that demonstrate a healthy and positive connection with people who are so different from them, Superman and Wonder Woman choose only to rely on each other. Their canon relationships with Steve and Lois, on the other hand, demand storytelling that celebrates empathy and acceptance. To me, that's not just the better story, it's the better story for Superman, Wonder Woman, and superheroes in general.

That's exactly why I would opt to ignore that if this version was brought back. New 52 Superman "warts and all" would still appeal to me, but if you're backing out of a dead end you also have to get out from the street that led you there.

[manofsteel1979]

Without a second thought. To at least give it a chance, its really hard to imagine any situation which would prevent me from it.

Challenge accepted!

Written by scott lobdell with art by a broken handed John Romita jr, edited by Eddie Berganza. The whole first two issues is just Superman solar flaring every three pages.

[Sacred Knight]

I'm sorry but the idea that it would be too confusing is laughable. What is confusing about different incarnations of characters, which has been going on in comics for time immemorial? No one would be confused. People eventually rolled with Superman Reborn, which is many times more convoluted than the idea of different versions could ever be.

In any case, speaking of WW I'd love if that were to eventually return with it in such a hypothetical situation. It wasn't all I loved about the New 52 Superman though so if it didn't come back with it, okay. It worked before so it could easily work again, but say they wanted to keep things "in house", New 52 Clark also had an incredible dynamic with Lana that I loved.

But to just put it to rest with facts, yes Diana was New 52 Superman's true love. This was methodically established over the course of its 4 year existence. The retcons were during Rebirth, so it doesn't count as New 52 information. The history was already in the process of changing at that point.

Challenge accepted!

Written by scott lobdell with art by a broken handed John Romita jr, edited by Eddie Berganza. The whole first two issues is just Superman solar flaring every three pages.

Honestly, Berganza would be the only thing to turn me off in that situation. Lobdell did exactly two stupid things with Superman in his run, which were bad but I'd give him the benefit of the doubt of correcting it. And hey, JRJR's art has a rather...rustic feel to it in the first place. I might not notice a broken hand, lol. That's not meant to be an insult, his art is an acquired taste and I kinda started to acquire it. But it does have a rough feel to me.