Controversial Wonderverse Opinions

[Agent Z]

Connecting Wonder Woman so intrinsically to mythology has been one of the worst decisions in crafting Diana as a modern hero. While I have no issue with Wonder Woman being an amazon, the daughter of Hippolyta or even the daughter of Zeus...in theory. I do hate how writers have given Diana the "mythology" section of the DC Universe. This wouldn't even be so horrible if Diana didn't feel isolated in this corner. From my understanding, this has not strengthened her connection to the Shazam universe who was also given his powers by Gods or even the New Gods universe. I know Robinson just finished a - in my humble opinion lackluster - story about Darkseid, Wonder Woman and Themsycira, but he did so in a way that did not truly explain the connection between the New Gods and Old Gods. I mean, why exactly where the children of Zeus specifically needed for Darkseid to regain his powers?

As a result, Diana has become an all mythology all Gods character be they old, new or dark. This, in essence, hurts Diana's relationships with Etta and Steve as neither can naturally fit into the world of mythology and feel organically useful - otherwise we get panels like Steve and the Oddfellows defeating the Furies. And while I'm excited for the new writer, I'm also disappointed that her first arc seems to center around Ares and Themsycira yet again. Rucka, Robinson and now Wilson have all played these threads and personally, I need a break.

I would love a story for Wonder Woman that has nothing to do with Themsycira or Mythology like Robinson's Silver Swan. In stories where we are in "Man's World" and Diana is confronting her human and metahuman rogues, Etta, Steve, Sasha and Argus can be seamlessly woven into the narrative that will not only make the Wonder Woman character richer but her supporting cast, as well.

Lastly, I am okay with D.C./Virginia being Wonder Woman base city. I see Wonder Woman as a worldwide hero, and I like the thought of her going on worldwide adventures. Her home city isn't as important to me.

Define isolated? Because she's still interacted with other DC characters and is the leader of the current incarnation of Justice League Dark. She's no more isolated than Superman.

I'd say the issue isn't the focus on mythology but rather the one-dimensional ways it's used. Diana doesn't have to be a child of Zeus to be important and frankly there's no reason she has to be limited to Greek myth.

[marhawkman]

I think part of it is because Diana tends to be the quiet stoic type and thus not the center of attention. She's the sort of character who stand back and lets others have the spotlight.

I have the entirely different impression of Diana's personality. I read her as competitive, a person who wants to act, and comfortable with being the centre of attention. Not in that she constantly forces herself into being the centre of attention, but because her leadership style is focused on getting in front, shouting "follow me".

True, but only when she's the leader. In team books she's usually not.

[DrNewGod]

True, but only when she's the leader. In team books she's usually not.

For this reason, I think one of the great mistakes DC made in its Post-CoIE history-shuffling was eliminating Wonder Woman's Golden Aged roots. Aside from the JS/JL continuity mess that it made, the loss of Superman's long history stripped the superhero community of the assumed central-leader-figure it had enjoyed. Wonder Woman was the obvious choice to fill this void, since she was one of the only three characters to carry her own title without cancellation from the early days of the Golden Age through the end of the Bronze. All the other players that might have been a fit for for such a role (who weren't being shunted to a later debut date) had been retired to make room for new Flashes, Green Lanterns, and Hawkmen, and so didn't have the continuous Pan-Age legacy .

IMO, there's no character better suited to the natural superhero leader role in all DC's stable than Wonder Woman. Batman is frequently portrayed as too Machiavellian to inspire trust, and Superman isn't trained in the roles of leadership with which Wonder Woman (literally) grew up. Instead, DC tried to manufacture such a stature for The Martian Manhunter, and as much as I like him, the character simply didn't have the published pedigree to sell me on the fit.

[Agent Z]

For this reason, I think one of the great mistakes DC made in its Post-CoIE history-shuffling was eliminating Wonder Woman's Golden Aged roots. Aside from the JS/JL continuity mess that it made, the loss of Superman's long history stripped the superhero community of the assumed central-leader-figure it had enjoyed. Wonder Woman was the obvious choice to fill this void, since she was one of the only three characters to carry her own title without cancellation from the early days of the Golden Age through the end of the Bronze. All the other players that might have been a fit for for such a role (who weren't being shunted to a later debut date) had been retired to make room for new Flashes, Green Lanterns, and Hawkmen, and so didn't have the continuous Pan-Age legacy .

IMO, there's no character better suited to the natural superhero leader role in all DC's stable than Wonder Woman. Batman is frequently portrayed as too Machiavellian to inspire trust, and Superman isn't trained in the roles of leadership with which Wonder Woman (literally) grew up. Instead, DC tried to manufacture such a stature for The Martian Manhunter, and as much as I like him, the character simply didn't have the published pedigree to sell me on the fit.

Leading a country and leading a superhero team aren't exactly the same thing. In-universe experience shouldn't be determined by out-of-universe iconography.

[DrNewGod]

Leading a country and leading a superhero team aren't exactly the same thing. In-universe experience shouldn't be determined by out-of-universe iconography.

In-universe qualifications and stature would not have been a problem. Diana was raised at the knee of a warrior queen, and taught combat tactics from childhood. Had DC not rebooted her in 1985-6, she would have brought decades of experience with two different superhero teams, plus most of a half-century of individual operations experience into The Post-CoIE DCU. She also would have built decades of in-universe fame and esteem to lend her moral authority (assuming nobody tried to Identity Crisis her backstory).

Out-of-universe iconography (AKA Brand Equity) does matter when you're trying to position a character as The Big Gun or The Big Leader in an extant comics continuity (assuming you're actually trying to sell comics).

• It's the first thing DC went to when JL Detroit (where Martian Manhunter was the centerpiece) began to stumble, by bringing Batman back in.
• It's what Giffen wanted to do with the post-Legends JL (but he was denied access to five of the original seven and had to adapt)
• It's what the JL did go back to when Giffen's comedy show had run it's course.
• It's why at least a few members of Wolfman and Perez's roster turn up in almost every attempt to relaunch The Teen Titans.
• It's why Captain Atom, Dr. Fate, The Spectre, Mister Terrific, The Atom, and Cyborg will never truly get to be on The A-List, no matter how much writers try to promote them, unless they manage to achieve, and maintain, steady sales (or as with Black Lightning, successfully launch them in another media), and build strong awareness and associations into their brands.

You can run an iconic character's brand into the ground (pre-crisis Flash and Green Lantern). You can position an iconic character as completely unfit to lead a mule to water (and somebody will still want to try it as a way of making the character grow). You can even build a nobody character into something iconic. But it's really hard to make a character with no iconographic chops work as a Big Timer, no matter how much it gets pushed in-universe.

[Agent Z]

In-universe qualifications and stature would not have been a problem. Diana was raised at the knee of a warrior queen, and taught combat tactics from childhood. Had DC not rebooted her in 1985-6, she would have brought decades of experience with two different superhero teams, plus most of a half-century of individual operations experience into The Post-CoIE DCU. She also would have built decades of in-universe fame and esteem to lend her moral authority (assuming nobody tried to Identity Crisis her backstory).

Out-of-universe iconography (AKA Brand Equity) does matter when you're trying to position a character as The Big Gun or The Big Leader in an extant comics continuity (assuming you're actually trying to sell comics).

• It's the first thing DC went to when JL Detroit (where Martian Manhunter was the centerpiece) began to stumble, by bringing Batman back in.
• It's what Giffen wanted to do with the post-Legends JL (but he was denied access to five of the original seven and had to adapt)
• It's what the JL did go back to when Giffen's comedy show had run it's course.
• It's why at least a few members of Wolfman and Perez's roster turn up in almost every attempt to relaunch The Teen Titans.
• It's why Captain Atom, Dr. Fate, The Spectre, Mister Terrific, The Atom, and Cyborg will never truly get to be on The A-List, no matter how much writers try to promote them, unless they manage to achieve, and maintain, steady sales (or as with Black Lightning, successfully launch them in another media), and build strong awareness and associations into their brands.

You can run an iconic character's brand into the ground (pre-crisis Flash and Green Lantern). You can position an iconic character as completely unfit to lead a mule to water (and somebody will still want to try it as a way of making the character grow). You can even build a nobody character into something iconic. But it's really hard to make a character with no iconographic chops work as a Big Timer, no matter how much it gets pushed in-universe.

Batman being brought into Justice League Detroit didn't stop that book's cancellation. For a more recent example, it didn't save JLA from cancellation either. Using icons can help at times but it isn't a guarantee. This is even when you ignore that Diana's brand had been almost irreparably damaged during the Silver Age so I doubt she's have been in a position to help any team's sales and reputation. And nothing she's done on two super teams (one of which depicted her as a secretary) showed her as qualified for leadership. If anything, post crisis and Rebirth showed more leadership qualification.

[Agent Z]

Themyscira's culture and aesthetic could use non-Greek influences.

[mathew101281]

Themyscira's culture and aesthetic could use non-Greek influences.

Shazam, Wonderwoman and Aquaman should all have more connections and interactions then they do. Their worlds overlap a lot.

[Fuzzy Mittens]

I find it weird that DC changed Wonder Womans origin to incorporate incest into her background. Im sure its fulfilling someones weird fantasies but making Ares Wonder Womans brother and grandfather is pretty gross. Im sure there are people who will argue that it has a precedent in a mythology from three thousand years ago, but it doesn't change the fact that a writer from eight years ago changed an origin from seventy seven years ago for the sake of their fetish.

[Agent Z]

I find it weird that DC changed Wonder Womans origin to incorporate incest into her background. Im sure its fulfilling someones weird fantasies but making Ares Wonder Womans brother and grandfather is pretty gross. Im sure there are people who will argue that it has a precedent in a mythology from three thousand years ago, but it doesn't change the fact that a writer from eight years ago changed an origin from seventy seven years ago for the sake of their fetish.

What incest? Ares isn't Diana's grandfather in this or the past continuity.

[SiegePerilous02]

I find it weird that DC changed Wonder Womans origin to incorporate incest into her background. Im sure its fulfilling someones weird fantasies but making Ares Wonder Womans brother and grandfather is pretty gross. Im sure there are people who will argue that it has a precedent in a mythology from three thousand years ago, but it doesn't change the fact that a writer from eight years ago changed an origin from seventy seven years ago for the sake of their fetish.

I doubt it's for the sake of anyone's fetish. In most versions Hippolyta is not the daughter of Ares, and was not confirmed as such in the New 52 version either. Even if she is...it's Greek myth. Its pretty standard fare. As long as Diana is not banging her grandfathers I can role with it.

What incest? Ares isn't Diana's grandfather in this or the past continuity.

I think in one Bronze Age comic Ares refers to Hippolyta as his daughter. And the fake Ares in Year One refers to the Amazons as "his" daughters, and Diana doesn't correct Barbara Ann when she brings up the same thing.

Personally I would be fine with Hippolyta having her demigod status restored.

[Joao]

I doubt it's for the sake of anyone's fetish. In most versions Hippolyta is not the daughter of Ares, and was not confirmed as such in the New 52 version either. Even if she is...it's Greek myth. Its pretty standard fare. As long as Diana is not banging her grandfathers I can role with it.



I think in one Bronze Age comic Ares refers to Hippolyta as his daughter. And the fake Ares in Year One refers to the Amazons as "his" daughters, and Diana doesn't correct Barbara Ann when she brings up the same thing.

Personally I would be fine with Hippolyta having her demigod status restored.

I'm still confused about the Amazon's status in Rebirth btw. They're the daughters of Ares and Harmonia according to Castalia in issue #2. But how come the Amazos were created as guardians of the prison of her own father?

I love Rucka but sooo complicated

[kjn]

I'm still confused about the Amazon's status in Rebirth btw. They're the daughters of Ares and Harmonia according to Castalia in issue #2. But how come the Amazos were created as guardians of the prison of her own father?

I love Rucka but sooo complicated

I think Rucka decided that since Wonder Woman's history was such a mess, he just decided to push it all in and at the same time give the tools needed for future writers to sort it out on their own time. Given the prior constant re-writes, I can't say he was wrong to do so (Obxkcd).

But then we got Robinson…

[kjn]

Poison Ivy is a better Circe than Circe.

[Mistah K88]

Hmm, for my controversial WW opinion is that I feel that Cheetah is only brought up as Wonder Woman's arch enemy because of her usage in Super Friends. It's like that show saved Giganta and Cheetah from becoming as obscure as many of Wonder Woman's rogues.