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  1. #61
    Incredible Member Lvenger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Except it didn't fail badly, at all. And it wasn't unpopular. Ascended is pointing out why he feels it couldn't have lasted long term in a main continuity setting. That's a much different assessment than saying it failed and was unpopular for the time it was around, both statements of which are flat out falsehoods.

    For the time it lasted it wasn't uneven either. It was pretty even across the board because at the time WW was under Superman's editorial anyway. There was no difficulty in coordinating from a characterization POV. The only potential oddity was it never being mentioned in WW's main title, and even that was pretty easily overlooked because while not mentioned it was never contradicted either. Azz was merely telling his own completely self-contained story.

    Would problems have come up later, had it lasted longer than the 4 years it did? Maybe, especially since creative and editorial situations naturally change with the passage of time. But for the time it was a go, none of these things were issues and its revisionist history to claim otherwise.
    But it did and it was very controversial to say the least. You seem to have forgotten the angry shipper wars between the Clois fans and the SM/WW fans during this period, that disproves your belief it wasn't unpopular. Ascended's point also fits in with how little communication there was between the Superman and Wonder Woman creators. Azzarello ignored it during his run which ran for over 30 issues uninterrupted and Johns didn't bother with the romance he introduced in his Superman run outside of a single panel where Diana is unavailable during Clark's call to her. So they're not falsehoods at all, it was a disastrous failure solely introduced to generate 'water cooler talk' in Lee and Johns' words, good and bad.

    So the romantic dynamics jumping around after Soule left, the lack of continuity in Superman and Wonder Woman's solo series and the relationship swiftly deteriorating isn't enough proof that SM/WW was uneven and DC had no idea how to make them work as a couple. Let alone last as long as Superman/Lois Lane or any other iconic comic book romance.

    Enough problems came up in the 4 years it lasted between the angry shippers, inconsistent writing and a lack of interest to make this relationship last resulting in a return to the previous status quo.

  2. #62
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Controversial does not equal unpopular and a failure. Of course there was a side that hated it. Some people hate Game of Thrones too, but one wouldn't say that's not popular and a failure. While it was a thing, it sold books. It was a success for the time it existed. Period. Controversial, yes. Divided, yes. Why wouldn't it be, there is no consensus on any relationship in fandom and this is no different. That's the whole reason "shipper" and "shipping" has become a pejorative. The concept of romance for fictional characters in geek culture is universal in its divisiveness for those who end up having a stake in such things. The unpopular/failure narrative? Holds zero weight.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 09-11-2018 at 01:21 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    It also isn't wrong at all to be able to fall in love again with someone else if he wants. For me, whatever makes him happy and he is not hurting anyone.
    I definitely wasn't disagreeing with that, Supes can go both ways depending on the writers and their own romantic notions, as you say.

  4. #64
    Ultimate Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    No matter what Watchmojo says, internally it was perceived as popular. The editor of the time said it himself as a response to one of the "angry shipper" and Soule's book was well received critically and sales-wise.

  5. #65
    Ultimate Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    A significant development like this in Diana's life should have been prioritised and co-ordinated over every major title involving her. The simple fact this didn't happen where it mattered, not even trying to make an impression on her core fanbase, did the pairing more harm than good. It showed it was never quite a big deal, at least not enough to factor into Diana's own routine and make her core title more involved in the Super-Line.
    That was a problem of the new52 as a whole not of the romance itself. There wasn't collaboration and communication between writers during that era because Lee and DiDio thought that writers could handle themselves without editorial planning, etc... what a mess.
    Last edited by Last Son of Krypton; 09-11-2018 at 01:42 PM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Controversial does not equal unpopular and a failure. Of course there was a side that hated it. Some people hate Game of Thrones too, but one wouldn't say that's not popular and a failure. While it was a thing, it sold books
    More like the books sold the series.

    (for a time, then they just trailed off and did their own thing)

    Edit: Whoops, I think you were talking about S/WW there, not Game of Thrones. Damn my interpretation of trailing sentences.
    Last edited by Miles To Go; 09-11-2018 at 01:42 PM.

  7. #67
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Except it didn't fail badly, at all. And it wasn't unpopular. Ascended is pointing out why he feels it couldn't have lasted long term in a main continuity setting.
    That's exactly it. The logistics behind the scenes must have been a nightmare. Same thing happened to Black Panther and Storm; creators had an extra layer of BS to claw through in the process of telling their stories because they couldn't just ask their own editor if a story idea was viable; that editor had to get a hold of editors from another office, then get back to the writer who would then have to adjust his/her story to fit the other office's plans, then submit it back to their editor who would then have to run it past the other office's editor a second time.......no wonder these cross-franchise relationships never work!

    I don't think the Clark-Diana relationship was a failure at all. It wasn't universally beloved and it had plenty of detractors, but there's a big difference between that and "failure." The book sold decently as I recall (not great, but decent) and it moved merchandise. It was not a clean, easy win, but it wasn't a loss (from what I can tell).
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  8. #68
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    No matter what Watchmojo says, internally it was perceived as popular. The editor of the time said it himself as a response to one of the "angry shipper" and Soule's book was well received critically and sales-wise.
    I do think Watchmojo has treated the pairing very unfairly in their videos. They act like it was either the sole or biggest factor behind the perceived "failure" of the New52. It does seem the Watchmojo staff have ideas they hate (see OMD) and that they enjoy constantly complaining about.
    Last edited by Celgress; 09-11-2018 at 07:54 PM.
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  9. #69
    Ultimate Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    I do think Watchmojo has treated the pairing very unfairly in their videos. They act like it was either the sole or biggest factor behind the perceived "failure" of the New52. It does seem the Watchmojo staff have ideas they hate (see OMD) and that they enjoy constantly complaining about.
    That's ridiculous, they don't even know what they're talking about.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    No matter what Watchmojo says, internally it was perceived as popular. The editor of the time said it himself as a response to one of the "angry shipper" and Soule's book was well received critically and sales-wise.
    Soule was only there for 8 or so issues though. Of which only the first 6 were his own arc and the rest were part of an event. Its not really possible to judge an ongoing on the basis of the first few issues and an event boost immediately after said issues.

  11. #71
    Ultimate Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armor of God View Post
    Soule was only there for 8 or so issues though. Of which only the first 6 were his own arc and the rest were part of an event. Its not really possible to judge an ongoing on the basis of the first few issues and an event boost immediately after said issues.
    Soule wrote 13 issues + 1 annual. The series also sold well during Tomasi's 1st crossover-less arc.

  12. #72
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    All of Soule's issues after the first arc were part of Doomed right?
    Yeah but even the books fans hated Tomasi's run. If we're going by overall success then I fail to see how a book locked in constant crossovers and a disliked creative team can be considered a success. It was never going to crash financially with all those crossover boosts and because it starred two of DC's biggest icons. But a book with 2 of DC's biggest icons should not be so poorly written, controversial, such a middling seller and dependant on crossovers. So if you look at it like that then I fail to see how it can be considered a success. Kingdom Come is a success.
    Last edited by Armor of God; 09-12-2018 at 12:29 AM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokimaru View Post
    To me the need of the "human" love interest is so retro, a hold over from a time when comicbook characters were separate entities in there own self contained universes. The Advent of the Shared universe means just that SHARED. One hand washes the other. How many times has Clark turtled up to protect his own little slice of Heaven whilst the world around him burned? How many times have Heroes been out on a limb when help is only supposed to be a few cities away and has Superspeed? New 52 was a truly Shared Universe where anyone could interact with anyone without an Event going on or "Guest" appearance.
    And this has what to do with whether or not Clark and Lois should be married?

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armor of God View Post
    Kingdom Come is a success.
    Kingdom Come is also finite. A closed narrative. All the best S/WW stories tend to be. As an ongoing status quo, it was prone to such tropes as Executive Meddling and Seasonal Rot.
    Last edited by Miles To Go; 09-12-2018 at 03:23 AM.

  15. #75
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    That's ridiculous, they don't even know what they're talking about.
    I think in regards to Superman , it was certainly one of the major factors why the New 52 version failed to gain traction. It wasn't the primary reason it failed ultimately ( poor editorial stewardship was the primary reason IMO) but it created division within the fandom that an essentially new version of the character didn't need at that point. I still say it was stupid to put Superman back into a long term romantic relationship after making such a big deal to get back to a single Superman after 20 years of being exclusive to Lois. Not that i wanted to see Superman as a swinging bachelor or anything, but i think it would have benefited the character to focus on adventure and scifi and defining who this "new" guy was on his own without being in a romantic relationship with anyone for a few years. I mean, they had already erased most of his history and changed his costume which were both divisive moves anyway. They didn't need to add shipper bait and shipper wars to the mix either ( remember when DC for valentines 2012 or 2013 did the whole " team Lois" vs. Team Diana" stuff on their social media to fuel that crap? Ugh.)


    As i've always said it was never the idea of exploring a Superman and Wonder Woman romance that I found distasteful. It was how it was treated and executed by DC brass in order to intentionally create " buzz" and " controversy" and to move merchandise and divide Superman fandom along lines at a time where the character was starting over and struggling a bit. The only one who seemed to care about doing right by the concept was Charles Soule when he was writing that book, and I enjoyed that book on its own terms . Everything surrounding that though was badly thought out and planned and after Soule left it was clear it was all about merchandising and buzz and not actually doing that relationship any justice.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
    SUPERMAN is the greatest fictional character ever created.

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