Invaders (2019)

[capandkirby]

But would they just use already filmed scenes with Evans or have to come to a new contract with him in order to have him return for those cameos?

For some reason, I had thought it was Evans who didn't want to make any more long-term movie commitments as Captain America?

He goes back and forth on that, sort of like Downey did after Iron Man 3. Russos recently stated Evans isn't done yet, so who knows.

...the entire time I was in Aquaman I was sitting there thinking, god I'd love to see Namor on the big screen. I hope they do, do that. Although I know Universal still has his distribution rights, Disney does have the production rights, like Hulk, so they could use him, just probably not in a standalone solo title. I'd much rather he be in a film with Cap than to have them stick him in the Black Panther franchise as a villain so I hope Things Fall Apart's theory is correct.

[Rosebunse]

I think Namor would be a fun character, but to be fair, as a newish reader-I got into comics in 2009-it took me a long time to warm up to him because he was such a dick.

[capandkirby]

I think Namor would be a fun character, but to be fair, as a newish reader-I got into comics in 2009-it took me a long time to warm up to him because he was such a dick.

This is what bums me out. I've been reading comics off and on since Gruenwald was writing Cap, and anyone who has gotten into comics in the past decade or so came into such a mess. I mean, there have been great books during the past ten years, don't get me wrong, but Marvel went through this grimdark, hyper masculine, emo phase and anyone recent to comics hasn't really had the opportunity to see the bulk of the heroes at their best. This past year has been great, Cebulski ‏is doing a fantastic job (I had the opportunity to meet him at last years SDCC and he's a nice guy) but honestly the Illuminati, Civil War, Avengers Disassembled, and the Ultimates just set this horrible precedence of grimdark and blurred morality in everything and it's like, come on, guys, I just want to see a good guy win over a bad guy, without watching two characters I love beat the crap out of each other in the process, can I have that please? Not saying grimdark doesn't have a place, but in everything, all the time?

Namor has always been nuanced. He's prickly, yes, and this has always been the case, but he fought in WW2 against Axis. He has a very intriguing backstory. Half human, half Atlantean, never fully accepted by either race. The Atlanteans tormented him for his pink skin and the humans have been terrible to Atlanteans as a whole, just terrible. He acts like he doesn't care but he would literally do everything in his power to protect Steve, Jim, Bucky and Toro. He always comes through for them, never waivers in that, even as recent as Secret Empire (re: the Brave New World series). And even while a member of the Illuminati he didn't want a part in half of their shenanigans, he didn't join Civil War until the very last minute (on Steve's side, of course).

Here's the problem, and I've said this before but it's true. We, as readers, get empathy for a character based on their interactions with other characters. That's how we associate with them. So if a character loves, we love with them. Marvel has spent so much time with their 'shades of gray' and pinning heroes against each other we've forgotten these guys are even capable of love.

Had they spent more time, in the past decade, letting Namor cameo in other books, letting him have good interactions with other characters to negate some of the bad interactions, more time showing his softer side, and less time making him the villain in everything or only presenting him as unhinged, they wouldn't have to do the clean-up they're doing now. It's really unfortunate that they allowed it to get to where they did. I subscribed to the Fantastic 4 title, but to this day I have a hard time feeling Reed because they never really took the time to redeem him after Civil War. I've long since warmed up to Tony again, because Tony was devastated by the fall-out of Civil War, felt remorse for it, so as a reader I was like, well, okay, since he's sorry, but Reed, not so much. To the best of my knowledge the dude has never felt bad for any of it.

I would hazard to say that getting a reader to empathize with a character is the single most important aspect of writing. The plot is very important too, don't get me wrong, but you can have the best plot in the world (the Clone Wars) but if you don't feel for the character (Anakin was a whinny brat) then you're not going to care about the story. And this is where Marvel has dropped the ball with Namor in recent years (and not just with Namor either, with a lot of their characters). I'm so happy they are correcting that now and I hope new readers - I mean, everyone on this thread obviously already is, but you know, more of the general audience - will give him a chance.

[capandkirby]

Remembered another one of my favorite Namor cameos in the Cap title. Englehart's run, Cap #181, the Nomad saga...
Nomad.jpg
I love this because Namor is just there, gabbing away, and Steve's like "But what about my new outfit?! You don't notice me anymore *sniff*."

[capandkirby]

So this happened...

Namor2.jpg

[ImperiusWrecked]

So this happened...

Namor2.jpg

LOL omg Slott why? XD

[ImperiusWrecked]

Remembered another one of my favorite Namor cameos in the Cap title. Englehart's run, Cap #181, the Nomad saga...
Nomad.jpg
I love this because Namor is just there, gabbing away, and Steve's like "But what about my new outfit?! You don't notice me anymore *sniff*."

This is such a good one! You know years later when Bucky wears the captain suit he asks Namor about it too and when I read that I remembered this panel! lol, why is everyone asking Namor about how their suits look? Over the years Namor's sense of fashion has been... interesting XD. Oh Namor why won't you notice Steve's new look? He worked hard on it.

[capandkirby]

This is such a good one! You know years later when Bucky wears the captain suit he asks Namor about it too and when I read that I remembered this panel! lol, why is everyone asking Namor about how their suits look? Over the years Namor's sense of fashion has been... interesting XD. Oh Namor why won't you notice Steve's new look? He worked hard on it.

LOL, there needs to be an Invader's comic, where the rest of the Invaders all come to Namor for fashion advice.

Jim: Hey Namor, does my red onesie make my butt look big?

Steve: What are your thoughts on plunging necklines, Namor? For? Or against?

[ImperiusWrecked]

I think Namor would be a fun character, but to be fair, as a newish reader-I got into comics in 2009-it took me a long time to warm up to him because he was such a dick.

Namor really isn't an easy character to love in the comics or as a reader, but he is one of the most honest characters in comics, he says what is on his mind and he does what he thinks needs to be done to protect his people. Since AVX he has been used so much for canon fodder, Atlanteans are killed without cause than to show calamity, and Atlantis barely is rebuilt before it's destroyed again. Most of his original crew has disappeared or been killed off and with no world building he suffers as the 'villain' or supporting character in other people's books. I would rec reading Namor the First Mutant as some modern reading for Namor if you don't wish to go way back into the 90's etc. It's really underrated but very good in showing you how his world works.

This is what bums me out. I've been reading comics off and on since Gruenwald was writing Cap, and anyone who has gotten into comics in the past decade or so came into such a mess. I mean, there have been great books during the past ten years, don't get me wrong, but Marvel went through this grimdark, hyper masculine, emo phase and anyone recent to comics hasn't really had the opportunity to see the bulk of the heroes at their best. This past year has been great, Cebulski ‏is doing a fantastic job (I had the opportunity to meet him at last years SDCC and he's a nice guy) but honestly the Illuminati, Civil War, Avengers Disassembled, and the Ultimates just set this horrible precedence of grimdark and blurred morality in everything and it's like, come on, guys, I just want to see a good guy win over a bad guy, without watching two characters I love beat the crap out of each other in the process, can I have that please? Not saying grimdark doesn't have a place, but in everything, all the time?

I have been screaming that for years now. lol. I am much more a fan of Hopepunk than Grimdark. Hopepunk sees your character struggle, it sees them be tempted by the darkness and fight so hard against the thing that would destroy them but then it shows that character finding something in themselves or in others and staying true to themselves, lifting themselves up again to fight. Hopepunk means to resist and to fight. They win in the end not because they let themselves be changed by the dark path but because they hold on to what their morals are and what is right. I feel Steve is VERY Hopepunk character and I want to see that again.

Had they spent more time, in the past decade, letting Namor cameo in other books, letting him have good interactions with other characters to negate some of the bad interactions, more time showing his softer side, and less time making him the villain in everything or only presenting him as unhinged, they wouldn't have to do the clean-up they're doing now. It's really unfortunate that they allowed it to get to where they did. I subscribed to the Fantastic 4 title, but to this day I have a hard time feeling Reed because they never really took the time to redeem him after Civil War. I've long since warmed up to Tony again, because Tony was devastated by the fall-out of Civil War, felt remorse for it, so as a reader I was like, well, okay, since he's sorry, but Reed, not so much. To the best of my knowledge the dude has never felt bad for any of it.

Namor has cameod a ton in other books but that was the big problem, he only cameos, shows up for a few scenes and is gone again. he is never shown his side of things, and when Marvel keeps having his world destroyed for the sake of plot then why would people care about Atlantis or his world if we are never shown it? I enjoyed the last All New Invaders but it felt to me to be everywhere, too many things happening in other books effecting that book, which is why I am glad Chip seems to have an idea for a solid story that isn't interrupted by whatever else is going on.

[ImperiusWrecked]

LOL, there needs to be an Invader's comic, where the rest of the Invaders all come to Namor for fashion advice.

Jim: Hey Namor, does my red onesie make my butt look big?

Steve: What are your thoughts on plunging necklines, Namor? For? Or against?

XD omg! Yes!

Namor: Toro you stole my look! I wear the speedo around here!

Toro: You can't claim all speedos Subby!

Steve: I think I should add a cape, everyone likes capes.

Namor: NO CAPES!

[Thor-El]

I think Namor would be a fun character, but to be fair, as a newish reader-I got into comics in 2009-it took me a long time to warm up to him because he was such a dick.

My rule of thumb when trying to know a character is get to read the first issues. I knew Namor from his 60s cartoons and a couple of issues from the silver age, but I went back to the first issues of the character way way back to the golden age in order to really know the character. Even though I liked the character from the silver age, I liked it even more once I started to read the golden age comics from his creator Bill Everett who was writer and artist for many years, he even went back and took over the character during the silver age and passed away while being the series creator at the time. It also helped that I found this forum and wonderful fans like Reviresco, the late Mantis Girl, Oberon and others that helped me get to know the character better and appreciate it. There is a thread in this forum where I published panels of the most important elements of each of the first golden age stories in chronological order and read it together with Reviresco, Mantis Girl and others. I stopped doing it for it was taking too much time of my mornings and my actual pay job but I would like to come back and finish with that thread someday.

[capandkirby]

Namor has cameod a ton in other books but that was the big problem, he only cameos, shows up for a few scenes and is gone again. he is never shown his side of things, and when Marvel keeps having his world destroyed for the sake of plot then why would people care about Atlantis or his world if we are never shown it? I enjoyed the last All New Invaders but it felt to me to be everywhere, too many things happening in other books effecting that book, which is why I am glad Chip seems to have an idea for a solid story that isn't interrupted by whatever else is going on.

You're right, he has. I read Squadron Supreme JUST for Jim and Namor. And the aforementioned Brave New World series. But I probably didn't explain myself well, I meant more the quality of the cameo rather than just the cameo itself. Because I think you just hit the nail on the head. They need to show Namor's side of things rather than just put him in something to be angry, or vengeful or defensive. And that's where the disconnect lies. Like Steve Namor was bullied as a child. How many new readers know that? It explains a great deal about Namor's prickliness! Namor goes to great lengths for the people he cares about, so put him around the people he cares about (as Chip is doing) so the audience can see that. That's the kind of thing I meant.

The Avengers only gave two indications of the state between humanity and Atlantis. One when those whalers killed the Atlanteans who boarded their boat while using racial slurs and the other was one panel, ONE, where Atlantean kids were washing up onshore starving to death and humans at the beach did nothing to help and even enjoyed the spectacle (that panel was so disturbing). But has had several panels of Namor attacking and killing people. So, the balance isn't really there. The problem there is that readers of an Avengers comic already sympathize with the Avengers. If you're buying that book and invested in it, you're biased against any foe the Avengers face automatically, right off the bat. Marvel's job in this becomes, which Chip is doing seemingly by himself, is selling Namor's side of it, too.

They did this same crap with BOTH Civil Wars. Had Cap not been shot at by SHIELD before the SHRA even passed, just because he stated that he wasn't going to go around arresting his friends, and had Tony/Reed/Skrull!Hank not gone off the deep-end when it came to enforcing the SHRA, pulling some truly horrific, Nazi-like crap, then you might have had a more balanced story, instead of the story being presented lop-sided in one direction. And I mean, Civil War 2 is even more of a solid example of this... was anyone on Carol's side?! No way. She was bonkers. No one in their right mind would believe that people should be arrested before they commit a crime.

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Marvel just sometimes does a really lousy job of remembering that in order to sell a book, but more importantly, sell the intellectual property aka character, we need to empathize with the characters. Understand their motivations.

[Reviresco]

I think Namor would be a fun character, but to be fair, as a newish reader-I got into comics in 2009-it took me a long time to warm up to him because he was such a dick.

Well, that was gearing up to the height of his dickishness, which was the contrived AvX.

Namor may act like a dick at times, but he usually has a reason for it. Until the last decade, writers realized Namor was an anti-hero and a Byronic hero and usually wrote him more sympathetically ... and less arrogantly. Not that he was humble, but not the narcissist so many portray him as now. There are 25 examples of Namor's Heroic side in this Advent calendar I did a few years ago, if you are interested in seeing him in a different light.

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...ghlight=advent

My rule of thumb when trying to know a character is get to read the first issues. I knew Namor from his 60s cartoons and a couple of issues from the silver age, but I went back to the first issues of the character way way back to the golden age in order to really know the character. Even though I liked the character from the silver age, I liked it even more once I started to read the golden age comics from his creator Bill Everett who was writer and artist for many years, he even went back and took over the character during the silver age and passed away while being the series creator at the time. It also helped that I found this forum and wonderful fans like Reviresco, the late Mantis Girl, Oberon and others that helped me get to know the character better and appreciate it. There is a thread in this forum where I published panels of the most important elements of each of the first golden age stories in chronological order and read it together with Reviresco, Mantis Girl and others. I stopped doing it for it was taking too much time of my mornings and my actual pay job but I would like to come back and finish with that thread someday.

Mantis Girl.

But thank you. We do have some great Namor fans on the board, and I count you as one, though a few of have gone on hiatus.

Your awesome Golden Age reviews were in the Readathon thread -- which I've been meaning to fire back up since the New Years. So behind. Here's the link.


https://community.cbr.com/tags.php?tag=namor75

[ImperiusWrecked]

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Marvel just sometimes does a really lousy job of remembering that in order to sell a book, but more importantly, sell the intellectual property aka character, we need to empathize with the characters. Understand their motivations.

I agree with you about it all, and really I am very tired of all these events; civil war, avx, whatever this war of realms thing is? etc, I wouldn't mind one or two but really it was far better when crossovers happened in one or two issues in the main series then everyone was back to their own adventures. So the constant pitting of hero vs hero gets turned into huge things and rarely does any character get out with their characterization intact.

[ImperiusWrecked]

I made some Steve icons out the first Invaders, can I just say I am loving the expressions that Guice is doing? I'll make more icons of the rest of the team as the series goes on but as always with anything I post, icons and edits are free for anyone to use as they want! Icons are 250x250 in size:

stever.jpg

stevew.jpg

steveb.jpg

(Why yes it is a red, white, and blue theme. XD )