New Avengers #23 (spoilers)

[hawkeyefan]

I think the distinction is that Namor and the Cabal did not make it possible for the Incursions to be solved meaning if the 616 was destroyed or not had no impact on the Incursion problem as it is presented. The problem still could have been solved by the inhabitants of another universe.

What they did keeps the 616 involved. Which is not minor...especially for meta reasons and out continued enjoyment of this book...but saying that did more than that is attributing more in story importance to their actions.

I can see how some might dismiss that distinction, but I understand it.

[Emma's Midriff]

I think the distinction is that Namor and the Cabal did not make it possible for the Incursions to be solved meaning if the 616 was destroyed or not had no impact on the Incursion problem as it is presented. The problem still could have been solved by the inhabitants of another universe.

What they did keeps the 616 involved. Which is not minor...especially for meta reasons and out continued enjoyment of this book...but saying that did more than that is attributing more in story importance to their actions.

I can see how some might dismiss that distinction, but I understand it.

As I told PotE, that's only true if you don't think that any 616 heroes are going to be involved in stopping the Incursions, which I guess is a valid viewpoint.

Seeing as how the book is about 616 heroes, I would bet money that Namor and the Cabal made stopping the incursions possible by keeping the 616 alive.

Last thing - when one has saved three universes, I don't think that it's very possible to attribute much more importance to that action than what's already there.

[hawkeyefan]

As I told PotE, that's only true if you don't think that any 616 heroes are going to be involved in stopping the Incursions, which I guess is a valid viewpoint.

Seeing as how the book is about 616 heroes, I would bet money that Namor and the Cabal made stopping the incursions possible by keeping the 616 alive.

Last thing - when one has saved three universes, I don't think that it's very possible to attribute much more importance to that action than what's already there.

I get your point, but I think one is a real world or meta way of looking at it...because we know the story revolves around the 616 and the characters we've been following.

But in the terms of the context of the story, then that's a little different. In that context, the 616 is no more important or central to the Incursions than any other universe. If it had been destroyed, the Incursions would continue on just as before. If it was saved, the Incursions would continue on just as before. So in that sense, the Cabal did not make it possible to stop the incursions.

Basically they made it so that the Illuminati and the rest of the 616 is still in the game.

And I'm not pointing this out to say that Namor accomplished nothing or anything like that. He definitely saved those universes, it's just that it's temporary. The danger is still present.

[jphamlore]

The list of potentially helpful beings the Illuminati seem to have NOT contacted seems endless. Like either of Thor's parents, Odin or Gaea. Tony Stark seemed quite impressed with the level of Odin's godhood at the end of Fear Itself. Amadeus Cho. The High Evolutionary. Dr. Doom and Valeria Richards.

The Illuninati other than Namor simply abandoning their posts with relatively large amounts of time left to them is so out of character I cannot imagine this not being debooted by the end of Hickman's run. One hour of Reed Richards time has often been portrayed as the equivalent of a hundred years of thought for others.

[Emma's Midriff]

I get your point, but I think one is a real world or meta way of looking at it...because we know the story revolves around the 616 and the characters we've been following.

But in the terms of the context of the story, then that's a little different. In that context, the 616 is no more important or central to the Incursions than any other universe. If it had been destroyed, the Incursions would continue on just as before. If it was saved, the Incursions would continue on just as before. So in that sense, the Cabal did not make it possible to stop the incursions.

Basically they made it so that the Illuminati and the rest of the 616 is still in the game.

And I'm not pointing this out to say that Namor accomplished nothing or anything like that. He definitely saved those universes, it's just that it's temporary. The danger is still present.

How is that not making it possible for the incursions to be stopped? Also, the danger is most certainly not present to the universes which had their earth destroyed.

Really, it comes down to this: If you believe (as I do) that some 616 heroes will have a role in stopping the Incursions, then you must admit that it was only made possible by Namor's actions. That's not giving him more importance than he deserves, it's simple fact.

If you believe that something else will stop the Incursions and the 616 will be irrelevant, then you must admit that the only reason the 616 lasted long enough to see the solution is because of Namor's actions. Again, this isn't overstating importance. It's simple fact.

The Illuminati gave up and condemned the world to die, Namor fought and saved the entire universe. (twice)

I don't see how you're not getting this.

Your need to play devil's advocate isn't making much sense anymore.

[hawkeyefan]

The list of potentially helpful beings the Illuminati seem to have NOT contacted seems endless. Like either of Thor's parents, Odin or Gaea. Tony Stark seemed quite impressed with the level of Odin's godhood at the end of Fear Itself. Amadeus Cho. The High Evolutionary. Dr. Doom and Valeria Richards.

The Illuninati other than Namor simply abandoning their posts with relatively large amounts of time left to them is so out of character I cannot imagine this not being debooted by the end of Hickman's run. One hour of Reed Richards time has often been portrayed as the equivalent of a hundred years of thought for others.

Cho may have been on their radar judging by the preview for Avengers 35. At the very least, he shows up in story.

How is that not making it possible for the incursions to be stopped? Also, the danger is most certainly not present to the universes which had their earth destroyed.

Really, it comes down to this: If you believe (as I do) that some 616 heroes will have a role in stopping the Incursions, then you must admit that it was only made possible by Namor's actions. That's not giving him more importance than he deserves, it's simple fact.

If you believe that something else will stop the Incursions and the 616 will be irrelevant, then you must admit that the only reason the 616 lasted long enough to see the solution is because of Namor's actions. Again, this isn't overstating importance. It's simple fact.

The Illuminati gave up and condemned the world to die, Namor fought and saved the entire universe. (twice)

I don't see how you're not getting this.

Your need to play devil's advocate isn't making much sense anymore.

I'm not really playing devil's advocate. Nor am I denying that the Illuminati gave up or that Namor fought on and staved off two incursions.

All I'm saying is that Namor's actions have yielded temporary results. Nothing he's done has increased the chances of the Incursions stopping.

Not unless you look at it from a meta standpoint that we know the Illuminati will find a way. If you're going to concede that, then yes, it can be said that he made it possible to for the incursions to be stopped. We can discuss it in that manner and that's fine. But within the context of the story, where the characters don't recognize that they're in a story and that they will ultimately succeed, it would be strange for anyone to say that Namor made it possible to stop the Incursions until such a time as the Incursions were stopped.

It's cool, though...it's a subtle distinction. I really only pointed it out because I picked up on what PeopleoftheEarth was saying and why it was being misconstrued.

[Emma's Midriff]

Except it doesn't only work from a meta standpoint.

Say I'm supposed to go to work tomorrow, but the universe was about to end.

If Namor keeps the universe from ending, he made it possible for me to get to work tomorrow.

See how that works? Namor saving the universe ensures that all options are open, meaning he's the only one ensuring that stopping the incursions remains possible.

Do you still think we're just overstating the importance of Namor's actions?

[TakoM]

The entire universe attacked Thanos when he had the Heart of the Universe, and I think in the splash panels we saw almost every member of the Illuminati attacking.

I know put I wanted to point out again that for what they seek(ed) to accomplish they neither have the cosmic power nor the knowledge have how there universe really works.. I think this an good example, I imagine how someone would tell Reed Richards what his father did when he was away or what he(or Doom) thought accomplish first and in true didn't or how many ways he didn't thought of saving the world from the incursion or remind him that he exactly know that the Illuminati never will accomplish anything good(a alternative Reed Richards killed his version of the Illuminati because of this)

Okay maybe I pull thinks too much in direction of Reed but he became a master piece of ignorance and arrogance in New Avengers for the supposed smartest man of the universe he became really stupid so the rest of the crew. I know they saved the world but for the price of ruin them self and be ruined through Hickman for future use as superhero. I don't think it is completely impossible to build them up again but its a crazy amount of work which include drastic measures.

But its also true I think this story will end with this all has never happened or a big bang.

[Cyberet]

Except it doesn't only work from a meta standpoint.

Say I'm supposed to go to work tomorrow, but the universe was about to end.

If Namor keeps the universe from ending, he made it possible for me to get to work tomorrow.

See how that works? Namor saving the universe ensures that all options are open, meaning he's the only one ensuring that stopping the incursions remains possible.

Do you still think we're just overstating the importance of Namor's actions?

So does this mean Emma has the hots for Namor now?

Namlr is the one true savior of 616. In a way no one has done before.
He sacrificed everything to ensure 616 survives.

[MouserGrey]

Ain't nobody saving shi, people. No one is going to figure anything out except what they are made of. And at this point they all know it. The multi verse will be destroyed and something will cause it to coalesce again. Then they will all navel gaze and some other writer will have to salvage these characters.

[MichaelAngel0]

Ain't nobody saving shi, people. No one is going to figure anything out except what they are made of. And at this point they all know it. The multi verse will be destroyed and something will cause it to coalesce again. Then they will all navel gaze and some other writer will have to salvage these characters.

Come now...that's just depressing.

[brainwasher]

Except it doesn't only work from a meta standpoint.

Say I'm supposed to go to work tomorrow, but the universe was about to end.

If Namor keeps the universe from ending, he made it possible for me to get to work tomorrow.

See how that works? Namor saving the universe ensures that all options are open, meaning he's the only one ensuring that stopping the incursions remains possible.?

Sure about that? There is a major weakness in your logic, for Namor allowing you to "go to work tomorrow" other seven billions people won't be able to go, therefore saying that he "ensures that all options are open" it's factual incorrect, all your options will be open, many more won't be anymore. You can only say what your are saying because you are outside of the story, you know that Earth 616 will be the one where the Incursion will be solved and consider it the "main" Earth.

Imagine if the story was told from many point of views from different alternative Earths, without telling you in advance on wich Earth will the Incursions be solved, without knowing which Earth is "the main", or better, with all the Earth being equal, would you be able to say that 616 Namor destroying other Earths it's helpful? You could not know.

Or imagine that the Earth where the Incursions will be solved is Earth 414, would you still take the side of Namor 616 ?

There is also the fact that the Illuminati would have asked to residents of other planets if they had some better solution than world killing, something Thanos and company I doubt will take the time to do, but this is another issue.

[People Of The Earth]

"Barge in" in on an open discussion in a public section of a public forum? =P Please think that over.

Anyway, I "barged in" because the dispute you started was pointless. That's self-explanatory.

So any discussion you deem pointless, you feel entitled to put an end to it...?
That's huh, very generous of you but, precisely because this a public forum, why don't you just go be part of discussions - sorry, disputes - you think are more useful/interesting/appealing/less pointless to you ?

Which absolutely no one has said.

It happened, I assure you. My guess is you didn't notice.

If the solution could come out of one of these universes, then, yes, it very much does change that. What are you even arguing?

"The potential to solve the problem was always there"? Well, no kidding. The potential was always there for Alexander Fleming to discover penicillin, but if he had died during World War I (a very real possibility), then he wouldn't have. This, too, is self-explanatory.

No, it doesn't.

Unless you consider that, out of the infinite number of universes being part of the multiverse, only the three universes that Namor saved hold the potential to solve the Incursion problem.
It is this idea of "uniqueness" that I'm refuting.

You are assuming Fleming was the only person who had the potential to discover penicillin, I'm assuming that there were other persons as capable as him to find the penicillin too, maybe even without being put in the same set of circumstances than him.
It's the same about discoveries made on the electricity, or the role of tectonic plates, or Earth simply orbiting around the sun, and so on...
The person making the discovery wasn't the only one capable of making said discovery: most of the time others were walking on the exact same road, only making slower progress.
Or had already reached the end of the road but were silenced/ostracized for it because they lived in the wrong era.
Or were walking on parallel roads leading them to other discoveries in sometimes unrelated fields...
They were as capable.
You agreeing or disagreeing really doesn't change that

Dude, those are precisely the same statements. Sweet Jesus. What do you think people have been talking about when they said that? The person you were responding to when you started all this themselves had said the Cabal would probably not personally be solving the problem.

TriDent, they *litterally* are not the same statements...
Maybe you should actually take the time to read what is posted, before starting the posturing ?

You will have one hell of a time proving this claim since not even one post on page 43 (or any other) says that. =P

Not really, no.

Page 43:"They are the only ones making it possible for the problem to be solved."

Other page (page 40): "Whoever saves the day wouldn't have gotten to do shit without the Cabal."

Funnily, this last one is from yourself.

Anyway, both statements are factually wrong: anyone - or anything - in any of the universes of the multiverse can eventually come up with a solution too.
It was already the case before Namor saved those three universes.
It still is the case after Namor saved those three universes.
To support the countrary is to support that the Incursions can only be solved by someone in those three universes.
Which, at this point of the story, is simply false, like I said to Emma's Midriff earlier in this thread.

Well, I'm not the one making up stuff to make a stink about, am I?

Again, take the time to read what is actually being posted before making this kind of attacks.

Except it doesn't only work from a meta standpoint.

Say I'm supposed to go to work tomorrow, but the universe was about to end.

If Namor keeps the universe from ending, he made it possible for me to get to work tomorrow.

See how that works? Namor saving the universe ensures that all options are open, meaning he's the only one ensuring that stopping the incursions remains possible.

Do you still think we're just overstating the importance of Namor's actions?

No, that's false.
He's the only one ensuring that stopping the incursions remains possible for the inhabitants/entities of the universes saved.
He has no impact on the rest of the multiverse's inhabitants/entities being able to find a solution to the Incursions eventually.

[TakoM]

Does somebody know how many buyers MC lost on New Avengers ? Until number 20 New Avengers was a top seller on the first page 21,22 were on the second last page 23 now is on the final last page now. ( I mean the digital selling on marvel.com and yeah I didn't buy the 23)

[XPac]

Sure about that? There is a major weakness in your logic, for Namor allowing you to "go to work tomorrow" other seven billions people won't be able to go, therefore saying that he "ensures that all options are open" it's factual incorrect, all your options will be open, many more won't be anymore. You can only say what your are saying because you are outside of the story, you know that Earth 616 will be the one where the Incursion will be solved and consider it the "main" Earth.

Imagine if the story was told from many point of views from different alternative Earths, without telling you in advance on wich Earth will the Incursions be solved, without knowing which Earth is "the main", or better, with all the Earth being equal, would you be able to say that 616 Namor destroying other Earths it's helpful? You could not know.

Or imagine that the Earth where the Incursions will be solved is Earth 414, would you still take the side of Namor 616 ?

There is also the fact that the Illuminati would have asked to residents of other planets if they had some better solution than world killing, something Thanos and company I doubt will take the time to do, but this is another issue.

Seven billion people are dead, but two entire universe won't be. So if we're using the mentality that anyone in theory could be the person who might solve the incursions, then because the loss of life is far far greater had Namor not acted, the odds of solving the incursions are still greater because Namor did what he did.

We're not just talking earths here. We're talking about every living being in 2 entire universes. With a larger net of living beings saved, you at least in theory can argue an increase in the chances of the incursions being potentially resolved.

Course, all of this is just an intellectual exercise as 616 is all that will likely matter.