Batwoman (2019)

[Bat-Meal]

All of them? Dick is? Barbara? Steph? Tim? I think we may be using different definitions of "brooding," because I don't see that with any of them, nor with Kate. Jason and Damian, sure.

Compared to the other Super-Family's, they are more brooding. Just look at past stories about them: Dick, shot in the head, Babs paralyzed, Steph brutally killed, and Tim was fairly miserable in the 90s apparently. Yeah, they mostly all got better (rebooted/retcon etc), but they are still a sulky bunch by contrast. And Kate was kinda 'emo' in her first solo, to the point where her family practically has an intervention and tells her not to try to do everything by herself.

AllWell, I'm sure not gonna bother if you just admit you won't change your mind. But honestly, I have no idea what you're basing this on.

The context of how and why she smiles has meaning. I can tell you from reading the comics, and re-reading them, that Kate does not come across to me as a genuinely cheerful character in any way. I like her for much the same reason I like Batman, but I do find her more interesting than Bruce.

I will admit, that Teaser with the Crow's guy was definitely contempt, but the Tattoo one was just strange to me - as I've never interpreted the comics version of the character as that ego driven. This live-action version is seemingly going to be quite different, I'm still adjusting.

*****
I've linked an article for you to read here, if you are so inclined:
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2017...e-not-the-same

Also a key quote from the article for you:

Of 19 different types of smile, only six occur when we’re having a good time. The rest happen when we’re in pain, embarrassed, uncomfortable, horrified or even miserable. A smile may mean contempt, anger or incredulity, that we’re lying or that we’ve lost.

And this article lists the sarcastic smile, that wasn't listed in the other article:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/b...what-they-mean

[Caivu]

I can tell you from reading the comics, and re-reading them, that Kate does not come across to me as a genuinely cheerful character in any way.

Okay, this may be where the disconnect is happening. When I say Kate isn't broody, I mean that she isn't a sulky, dour miseryguts like Bruce often is, not that she's sunshine and puppy dogs all the time. I mean that she by and large acts like an emotionally-well-adjusted person, especially in light of all that she's been through; not cartoonishly on one side of the spectrum or the other. She may not be cheerful, but she's certainly happy plenty of times.

The quote you mentioned is kinda irrelevant, since Kate was happy or otherwise positive in all the examples I counted.

[Bat-Meal]

Okay, this may be where the disconnect is happening. When I say Kate isn't broody, I mean that she isn't a sulky, dour miseryguts like Bruce often is, not that she's sunshine and puppy dogs all the time. I mean that she by and large acts like an emotionally-well-adjusted person, especially in light of all that she's been through; not cartoonishly on one side of the spectrum or the other. She may not be cheerful, but she's certainly happy plenty of times.

The quote you mentioned is kinda irrelevant, since Kate was happy or otherwise positive in all the examples I counted.

Many of those to me look like politeness while her mind is on other things, not to say she isn't being genuinely well-meaning, but that's not the same as being genuinely happy. Started doing a flip through, not going to count, she spends a not insignificant amount of time angry or scowling. And some I would count as more thoughtful rather than a smile, and others I would say go into categories of smile that do not equal pleasure (did you even skim through the article).

Look, you go ahead and see the character in your own way, and I mine. People interpret things differently. But for me Kate is brooding in the comics, that is how she is - so I find some of what has been shown of the live-action version so far rather jarring. We will not reach an agreement in this.

[Caivu]

Many of those to me look like politeness while her mind is on other things, not to say she isn't being genuinely well-meaning, but that's not the same as being genuinely happy.

So she's not genuinely happy whenever she's with Maggie (or any other love interest, for that matter)? She's not genuinely happy when she remeets Beth? Those are most of the ones I counted.

Started doing a flip through, not going to count, she spends a not insignificant amount of time angry or scowling.

She does, that's true. But it's usually in response to people she's angry or irritated with: Abbot, Jacob, Bette, Bones, Chase, etc. That doesn't mean she's angry or irritated all the time, nor does it negate times when she's not.

Look, you go ahead and see the character in your own way

I'm not trying to do that, though. "My way," in this or anything else, is figuring out what the text actually says, shows, or supports, with evidence to back it up.

But for me Kate is brooding in the comics, that is how she is

Then how are you squaring that with all the things that don't support this? All the counterexamples to what you're saying should mean that she's at least considerably more balanced than what you're describing.

[Bat-Meal]

So she's not genuinely happy whenever she's with Maggie (or any other love interest, for that matter)? She's not genuinely happy when she remeets Beth? Those are most of the ones I counted.

Seems you weren't looking at the same examples. And I'm not interested in re-reading the collection just to count emotions - to debate with you about whether my dislike of a bunch of adverts for a show (that hasn't even aired yet) is 'valid'.

I'm not trying to do that, though. "My way," in this or anything else, is figuring out what the text actually says, shows, or supports, with evidence to back it up.
Then how are you squaring that with all the things that don't support this? All the counterexamples to what you're saying should mean that she's at least considerably more balanced than what you're describing.

Where did I say that she was unbalanced (although now I will provide you with a brief one below). Comics are an interpretive art-form. Yes, I know there are red panels with Kate's thoughts, but not all of the time. Shown images can be interpreted differently. Your evidence is your own interpretation, which evidently does not match-up with my own. And if everyone's interpretations of characters all matched-up there wouldn't be much point for a forum to discuss any fictional characters.

Look, I offered you an olive-branch that we see things our own way - you are determined to try to tell me what to think.

Allow me to put things another way: As a general rule - the Bat-Characters are miserable by design (at least at the beginning). Batwoman is no exception to this rule. So when I see advertisements making her look overly happy, to me it rings as dis-ingeniousness. That is my interpretation, that is my feeling about the character. Not yours.

I also see Kate as unhappy, and lacking confidence, because:

• Used to write a farewell message to her father before every mission, (read into that what implications you will, possibly as purely practical, I see it as something else in addition)
• Needed alcohol initially to cope, after being booted from the Academy and before becoming Batwoman
• Needs a pep-talk from Red Robin before she is willing to lead the Knights
• Has a history of self-sabotage in relationships, causing them to end (not purely talking the romantic kind by the way)
• Noted as having a probable Messiah Complex, and also having issue with authority whilst also wanting to be in control
• Flashback from the second solo basically had her try to commit suicide, but instead she cracked her skull
• Got into a relationship with a crime-lord
• Drugs herself with Fear-Toxin to make a point to someone, the night before a major fight

I am also done 'discussing' this with you. The conversation is over. I don't like the adverts.

[Caivu]

I am also done 'discussing' this with you. The conversation is over.

Well... okay then. All I'll leave with is that every example you listed has nothing to do with an inherent lack of happiness or confidence, but temporary ones, or else is irrelevant.

[Bat-Meal]

New Teaser:


Question: Does anyone know if there were this many promos for the other shows?

It feels like there are more for Batwoman, but then again I didn't follow the other shows until they were already out. I was mildly intrigued when I heard about Supergirl, and so planned to watch it, but that's it. I didn't start watching the Flash until he appeared on an episode of Supergirl and found him to be a good character.

[Bat-Meal]

There was a Batwoman Panel recently:
Attachment 85461

https://twitter.com/BatwomanBR/statu...32167895134208

Breakdown:

• Batman appearance possible, producer said "never say never"
• Kate is Jewish
• Kate gets the wig in Ep 3
• The series will feature some villains that the series Gotham did not
• Magpie is a confirmed villain
• Batwoman is confirmed as serious, and doesn't smile much
• The series is it's own thing and not a direct Arrow replacement
• The tone will be more grounded
• Kate and Sophie's relationship is important
• Mary is pretty much Bette, seeking Kate's approval and more chatty and friendly
• Luke Fox will have a sibling-like relationship with Kate
• Catherine (step-mother) will be seen more as the series progresses

[protege]

There was a Batwoman Panel recently:
Attachment 85461

https://twitter.com/BatwomanBR/statu...32167895134208

Breakdown:

• Batman appearance possible, producer said "never say never"
• Kate is Jewish
• Kate gets the wig in Ep 3
• The series will feature some villains that the series Gotham did not
• Magpie is a confirmed villain
• Batwoman is confirmed as serious, and doesn't smile much
• The series is it's own thing and not a direct Arrow replacement
• The tone will be more grounded
• Kate and Sophie's relationship is important
• Mary is pretty much Bette, seeking Kate's approval and more chatty and friendly
• Luke Fox will have a sibling-like relationship with Kate
• Catherine (step-mother) will be seen more as the series progresses

You mean there are actually some villains left over that Gotham didn’t cover?

[Jackalope89]

You mean there are actually some villains left over that Gotham didn’t cover?

Most were the big name ones. But lesser known ones weren't used, like Doctor Hurt for example.

[Bat-Meal]

You mean there are actually some villains left over that Gotham didn’t cover?

I didn't watch Gotham past the first season, so I don't know all of the ones they used, but there are a lot of Batman villains.
I see your point though, as Arrow used a lot of Batman's rogues too, apparently (don't watch that show either), and in the SDCC panel they said that previous Arrowverse villains won't be used either.

Maybe Batwoman can poach some Green Arrow/Black Canary villains that Arrow didn't use.

[Osiris-Rex]

You mean there are actually some villains left over that Gotham didn’t cover?

There are hundreds of Batman villains. No show could possibly use all of them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...Family_enemies

Plus they didn't say they wouldn't be using Gotham villains. Just that they would also be using villains that Gotham didn't. So Penguin and Riddler could maybe show up on Batwoman.

[Bat-Meal]

New images from the Pilot, plus character profile pics:

https://batwoman.tv/pilot-gallery-ch...hotos-released

There are hundreds of Batman villains. No show could possibly use all of them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...Family_enemies

Plus they didn't say they wouldn't be using Gotham villains. Just that they would also be using villains that Gotham didn't. So Penguin and Riddler could maybe show up on Batwoman.

I hope they use Scarecrow at some point, just because Kate has fought him a few times (comics and videogame).

[AnakinFlair]

The only thing I'm not liking so far is their take on Luke Fox. In my mind, they should have cast someone like Mechad Brooks- a well built, confident black man who can talk a good game, but still looks like he can take you in a fight. That's who Luke Fox is, in addition to being a genius. But this looks like they are modeling their Luke on Echo Kellum's Curtis Holt, a character I seldom liked and who I never bought as a vigilante.

I just don't get why every time then write a smart character, they have to turn them into a nerd. It was mostly charming for Felicity and Winn (they both had the personalities to pull it off), it was just annoying with Curtis. The only real badass smart people there are would be Cisco and Caitlin, and both could be wildly inconsistent.

[Caivu]

The only thing I'm not liking so far is their take on Luke Fox. In my mind, they should have cast someone like Mechad Brooks- a well built, confident black man who can talk a good game, but still looks like he can take you in a fight. That's who Luke Fox is, in addition to being a genius. But this looks like they are modeling their Luke on Echo Kellum's Curtis Holt, a character I seldom liked and who I never bought as a vigilante.

I just don't get why every time then write a smart character, they have to turn them into a nerd. It was mostly charming for Felicity and Winn (they both had the personalities to pull it off), it was just annoying with Curtis. The only real badass smart people there are would be Cisco and Caitlin, and both could be wildly inconsistent.

I've heard that Luke isn't actually much like Curtis. He's still funny and nerdy, but not just that. During the pilot filming, Camrus Johnson posted a video of him doing fight training, so it seems Luke will still be an MMA fighter, or at least physically competent.