Why do people hate Barry Allen?

[Dred]

The difference the retcon to Barry was minimal and more that Wally didn’t exist and his mother died (which in the comics is less of a retcon and more of time travel shenanigans). Which brings us to the first problem, so much of it starts with Barry that to do what you said basically turns Wally completely into Barry minus sub Iris into Linda. Also then you retroactively ruin a lot of Wally’s best stories because the fact that he was the kid Flash and was the 2nd Flash after Barry was important to much of his history. Also Barry not existing kind of hurts Bart who needs to be completely changed to make sense of you retcon Barry being the first Flash. Also the whole Teen Titans era that made the book famous where Wally was Kid Flash gets screwed over as well.

It’s a lot note complicated to do with Wally than Barry. And it has nothing to do with respect. It’s just spot simpler with Barry

There are still tons of things unique to Wally that would still be the same without Barry. I think it would be a terrible idea to do that, mind you, just like it was an absolutely terrible and disgraceful thing to do to Wally for the sake of making Barry the only Flash.

It's not actually complicated. You just do the DCAU show version. Never acknowledge Barry. It's not a matter of simple. It's incredibly simple to just ignore something.

It is 100% due to respect. Or bias, more than anything, from a single man who had a vice grip on the franchise since 2004.

Also Barry is NOT the first Flash. This is kind of what I'm talking about.

[HAN9000]

This is completely subjective discussion. To me Return of Barry Allen and Terminal Velocity are fat and away the two greatest Wally stories and one relies completely on Barry Allen and needs Barry’s memory and image, Wally’s insecurity about it, his arch enemy and it’s heavily implied the bolt of lightning that saves Wally is Barry. So really Terminal Velocity.

Wally’s sidekick is tied to Barry. The culmination of John’s run in John’s run which is probably the second greatest Flash run brought Barry back into play in Rpgue War. Wally’s top villain of 2000‘a os a ripoff of Barry’s arch villain. The most significant of the Rogues started as Barry villains

Again this all subjective, but no more subjective than your list. I grew up in the 90’s and read Wally first before I went back to most of Barry’s stuff. The best Wally stuff was effectively everything leading up to him finally matching/surpassing Barry. After that he became very bland. Also as someone who also read most of Wally’s kid Flash stuff, they totally retconned Wally’s personality when he became Flash so the idea that Barry’s can’t similarly be adjusted is silly when it’s neither’s original personality.

The speedforce is the one thing that came out of Wally’s run that had staying power. Literally everything else about Flash is more tied to Barry. And even then Wally is so fundamentally tied to Barry that it’s kinda silly splitting hairs.

I don’t begrudge anyone for preferring Wally more. But it’s a subjective argument. Barry fans had to deal with him being gone 20 years. Wally fans had to deal with him being gone like 5 and they got an alternative version of Wally in the middle of it. This is just fans trying to make their fan loss seek bigger to justify complaints. For Barry fans there was a legitimate two decade period where it was entirely possible their character was gone forever solely for the sake of Wally to be justified.

I’m not going to say it’s

Well, you're completely free to prefer silver age stories over those written by some of the greatest comic writers in history. I have no problems with that.
I guess you've forgotten Eobard Thawne was also a rip-off of Edward Clariss? Yes, the Rogues started as Barry's villain. But they were just lame back then. After many years they were finally given entity to in Wally's run. So was Eobard Thawne.
Wally West matured a great deal in his run. But he didn't become Barry. You can tell their differences in many stories like Iron Heights. On the other side, Barry was portrayed just like Wally in many ways since new52. That's the problem.
The Flash Family IS a Wally thing. Max Mercury, Jesse Quick, they shared a more profound bonding with Wally. Yes Bart is Barry's grandson. But he is also Wally's nephew. Also, who mentored Bart? Who is Bart more connected to?
I started reading comics after n52. I prefer Wally not because of nostalgia or imprinting. Just simply he has better stories and depiction.

[Hol]

It wasn't so much up to Johns. At the time he was working under the impression Wally would get his own book when he was writing Barry.

Eh Johns knew full well what would happen to Wally West when he brought Barry back. At BEST he would receive the same treatment Kyle Rayner received at the time. But ultimately not having him be the main Flash would make him disposable. I said it then and people told me I didn't know that would happen. And what happened?

[Hol]

I do not hate Barry. I like him a lot. He is my least favorite Flash character though at this point. And I have read every issue of his original run.

I hate what Johns, Van Sciver and Didio did to Wally and the Flash franchise by bringing Barry back. They took something really unique from comics (not just the DCU). Here we had a sidekick who took over the mantle for good. (20 plus years sure felt like for good). He made the mantle his own. He was very popular and fit the costume and powers better than Barry ever did. He was the best written, the most fleshed out Flash character. He also added a unique dynamic to the JLA. That whole Morrison era was great with senior members and newbies with Wally dead center.

And why did we lose this? Just to bring back another silver age character. And we got nothing good from it. 11 years later and there has been NO great Flash stories. Not one. Flashpoint is good but it isn't a Flash story. It is a DCU event starring Flash and Batman.

It sucks but it is what it is. Wally had a great run and was the Flash during the best written and most exciting time at DC comics. Post Crisis to Flashpoint. Barry can be the Flash during these uninspired times. No one is going to look back at the New 52/Rebirth era of DC and think it was great IMO.

[HAN9000]

Eh Johns knew full well what would happen to Wally West when he brought Barry back. At BEST he would receive the same treatment Kyle Rayner received at the time. But ultimately not having him be the main Flash would make him disposable. I said it then and people told me I didn't know that would happen. And what happened?

I think this post can answer your question.


Geoff Johns planned books for Wally and the Flash family. He wanted to build a Flash universe just like what he did with Green Lantern. Those books were cancelled before coming out. The editorial plan was to focus on a single book starring Barry.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

I think this post Attachment 99748can answer your question.
Attachment 99745

Geoff Johns planned books for Wally and the Flash family. He wanted to build a Flash universe just like what he did with Green Lantern. Those books were cancelled before coming out. The editorial plan was to focus on a single book starring Barry.

Yeah honestly I think the reboot hurt Wally more than Barry coming back. Just like the reboot forced Dick back into being Nightwing

[HAN9000]

Yeah honestly I think the reboot hurt Wally more than Barry coming back. Just like the reboot forced Dick back into being Nightwing

Acually, Dan Didio declared that decision of putting The Kid Flash and Flash: Speedforce(IIRC) on hold in 2010... before the Flashpoint.

[Cyberstrike]

I think it was Mark Waid when he was writing/co-writing The Flash back in the 90s was asked why never brought Barry Allen back permanently (and Waid is a HUGE Silver Age comic fanboy) was something to effect "Barry's death in Crisis on Infinite Earths made him the patron saint of the DCU" and Wally struggled with being the Flash and what it meant for him. Also before Barry's death DC had done The Trial of the Flash which from I read about was basically an out of control storyline and tanked the original series and royally screwed up Barry and Iris' backstory, fate, and continuity to the point no one cared about Barry Allen or the Flash legacy.

CoIE redeemed Barry Allen as the Flash and Wally redeemed the legacy of the Flash and made the Flash one of the coolest DC characters of the 90s. Expanded the legacy and powers of the character and showed Wally growing and maturing into a hero in own his right.

[Hol]

I think this post can answer your question.


Geoff Johns planned books for Wally and the Flash family. He wanted to build a Flash universe just like what he did with Green Lantern. Those books were cancelled before coming out. The editorial plan was to focus on a single book starring Barry.

I was a big poster on the Comic Bloc boards back then. I remember this well. I know what his intentions for his run would be but he knew his run would end eventually and ultimately anyone would be stupid not to know what would most likely happen to Wally. Making Barry Allen the main Flash again was never going to be a good thing for Wally West.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Well, you're completely free to prefer silver age stories over those written by some of the greatest comic writers in history. I have no problems with that.
I guess you've forgotten Eobard Thawne was also a rip-off of Edward Clariss? Yes, the Rogues started as Barry's villain. But they were just lame back then. After many years they were finally given entity to in Wally's run. So was Eobard Thawne.
Wally West matured a great deal in his run. But he didn't become Barry. You can tell their differences in many stories like Iron Heights. On the other side, Barry was portrayed just like Wally in many ways since new52. That's the problem.
The Flash Family IS a Wally thing. Max Mercury, Jesse Quick, they shared a more profound bonding with Wally. Yes Bart is Barry's grandson. But he is also Wally's nephew. Also, who mentored Bart? Who is Bart more connected to?
I started reading comics after n52. I prefer Wally not because of nostalgia or imprinting. Just simply he has better stories and depiction.

Zolomon has the exact same look and stylistic obsession as Thawne. There are some differences. But Clariss is a completely different thing besides same powers as the hero (which nearly every hero has). Zolomon has Zoom in the name and the same costume. It’s very clear who he was emulating.

Wally’s personality was changed post Crisis from his old Kid Flash personality pre Crisis. So it’s not without precedent to modernize the personality to suit the story. JLU Flash was basically Bart with Wally’s name and Barry’s backstory

[Noodle]

Now you know how Barry fans felt for 20 years. JL cartoon replaces Barry with Wally and never mentioned Barry. that’d be like if a spider man movie started off with Miles Morales and never mentioned Peter Parker

If they had used Barry in JL would you have said this same thing in regards to Jay?

It comes off to me that 90% of this argument is "Wally replaced Barry/Barry replaced Wally." Barry came along in 1956. Flash of Two Worlds wasn't until 1961. For 5 years Barry straight up replaced Jay. He did the same thing Wally supposedly did. And for the "Wally was wiped from existence" people, Jay wasn't even published for 10 years before Flash of Two Worlds brought him back. That's longer than Wally was gone.

This argument really agitates me. One of my first comics was when Kyle Rayner became Green Lantern. I've been dealing with this literally the entire time I've been reading comics from both the Green Lantern fanbase and now it's infecting the Flash fanbase.

[Username taken]

I do not hate Barry. I like him a lot. He is my least favorite Flash character though at this point. And I have read every issue of his original run.

I hate what Johns, Van Sciver and Didio did to Wally and the Flash franchise by bringing Barry back. They took something really unique from comics (not just the DCU). Here we had a sidekick who took over the mantle for good. (20 plus years sure felt like for good). He made the mantle his own. He was very popular and fit the costume and powers better than Barry ever did. He was the best written, the most fleshed out Flash character. He also added a unique dynamic to the JLA. That whole Morrison era was great with senior members and newbies with Wally dead center.

And why did we lose this? Just to bring back another silver age character. And we got nothing good from it. 11 years later and there has been NO great Flash stories. Not one. Flashpoint is good but it isn't a Flash story. It is a DCU event starring Flash and Batman.

It sucks but it is what it is. Wally had a great run and was the Flash during the best written and most exciting time at DC comics. Post Crisis to Flashpoint. Barry can be the Flash during these uninspired times. No one is going to look back at the New 52/Rebirth era of DC and think it was great IMO.

Quoted in agreement.

I would add that “nostalgia” is a big part of the problem with modern entertainment even beyond comics.

The idea that things MUST and NEED to go back to the way they were is part of why American superhero comics are speeding towards a dead end. It’s like everything is temporary and going in circles. Honestly, if creators past felt we could move beyond the Jay Garricks and Alan Scotts, I don’t see why meaningful change can’t be made today.

All this was compounded by DC somewhat mean spiritedly trying to completely ruin Wally. He lost his title, was totally erased by the nu52, came back without his family and totally forgotten, turned into a mass murderer and is now..I don’t even know what he is now.

Wally West successfully becoming the Flash is one of the few examples in popular fiction of mantle passing but that’s been completely ruined now. The creators went out of their way to grow Wally as a character, expanded his powers and his universe all for that to be transferred to Barry Allen who’s been painfully dull since his return.

Part of Didio’s logic for removing Wally was using Barry in other media which is a bit silly. We just saw a Captain Marvel movie (a character with a far more recent mantle adoption) gross over a billion dollars, if the creators want it to work, it will work.

[Agent Z]

I'm more apathetic to Barry than hateful of him. When he's good, he'd good. When he's bad, he's bad.

[Hol]

Quoted in agreement.

I would add that “nostalgia” is a big part of the problem with modern entertainment even beyond comics.

The idea that things MUST and NEED to go back to the way they were is part of why American superhero comics are speeding towards a dead end. It’s like everything is temporary and going in circles. Honestly, if creators past felt we could move beyond the Jay Garricks and Alan Scotts, I don’t see why meaningful change can’t be made today.

All this was compounded by DC somewhat mean spiritedly trying to completely ruin Wally. He lost his title, was totally erased by the nu52, came back without his family and totally forgotten, turned into a mass murderer and is now..I don’t even know what he is now.

Wally West successfully becoming the Flash is one of the few examples in popular fiction of mantle passing but that’s been completely ruined now. The creators went out of their way to grow Wally as a character, expanded his powers and his universe all for that to be transferred to Barry Allen who’s been painfully dull since his return.

Part of Didio’s logic for removing Wally was using Barry in other media which is a bit silly. We just saw a Captain Marvel movie (a character with a far more recent mantle adoption) gross over a billion dollars, if the creators want it to work, it will work.

Yup, and it still makes me shake my head that the writer of Flash Rebirth , Geoff Johns, still says Wally West is his favorite character. I do not get why he would willingly write the story that demotes him. (I know Barry came back in Final Crisis but that was originally supposed to be an alternate Earth version until Geoff & Dan told him to use the original to make way for Rebirth)

[Username taken]

Yup, and it still makes me shake my head that the writer of Flash Rebirth , Geoff Johns, still says Wally West is his favorite character. I do not get why he would willingly write the story that demotes him. (I know Barry came back in Final Crisis but that was originally supposed to be an alternate Earth version until Geoff & Dan told him to use the original to make way for Rebirth)

It’s really crazy because Johns himself was a big part of Wally’s success.

Johns is experienced enough to know that there wasn’t going to be room for two Flashes. Particularly with both Wally’s and Barry’s prominence.